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Thread: Pencil Practice Proposal.

  1. #1
    Alpha Flight

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    Lightbulb Pencil Practice Proposal.

    Ok, I'd like to test my ability to pencil a comic book.

    What I would like is for someone here to pick an issue of Alpha Flight that you found the art disappointing in, and script it for me. (Extra points if Kyle is in it, of course. lol)

    I always thought some of the art in certain runs was just downright unfortunate, so I figure it would be great to challenge myself and hopefully re-create an issue of Alpha Flight better than it was before.

    Is anyone up for this?
    "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me thrice, you must be Marvel."
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  2. #2
    Harvester of Sorrows Department H
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    I tried that once with #75. Didn't get very far...

    I'd like to see it done better, but seriously don't have the time to re-script it.

    - Le Messor
    "I'd love to, but I'm trying to see how long I can go without saying yes."

  3. #3
    Alpha Flight

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    Lann the Sorcerer story arc? Yeah, that stands out in my mind as one of the biggest low points art-wise, too. I don't know if the writing can be saved though.
    "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me thrice, you must be Marvel."
    -FlightPath07 Don't you feel all important now?

  4. #4
    Alpha Flight

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    Well, now that I think about it, maybe the writing wouldn't seem so bad to me if the art weren't so ridiculous.


    Now that I'm leafing through the books, I'm realizing that Michael Bair is even worse than John Calimee. And where the hell do they get these terrible inkers and colorists? They almost give the last run or two of X-Factor a run for their money. Almost. XD So many random blue walls and purple floors and stuff. lol
    Last edited by EccentricSage; 08-21-2011 at 06:12 AM.
    "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me thrice, you must be Marvel."
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  5. #5
    Harvester of Sorrows Department H
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    Quote Originally Posted by EccentricSage View Post
    Well, now that I think about it, maybe the writing wouldn't seem so bad to me if the art weren't so ridiculous.
    That's why I chose that issue - I liked it so much I read it, like, three times in a couple of days - and I was no fan of the art.

    - Le Messor
    "NyQuil, the stuffy, sneezy, why-the-heck-is-the-room-spinning medicine."

  6. #6
    Alpha Flight
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    Quote Originally Posted by EccentricSage View Post
    Well, now that I think about it, maybe the writing wouldn't seem so bad to me if the art weren't so ridiculous.


    Now that I'm leafing through the books, I'm realizing that Michael Bair is even worse than John Calimee. And where the hell do they get these terrible inkers and colorists? They almost give the last run or two of X-Factor a run for their money. Almost. XD So many random blue walls and purple floors and stuff. lol
    C'mon where else can you see a heroes individual toes in their costume other then from Bair? BTW one of my other fav artists is David Ross (sans Talaoc inks). I was so excited when he came on because I had seen his work on a Star Trek annual and I also seem to remember that he is Canadian. Best of luck on your redo. I have been working on one that I came up with as a way to resurrect Alpha (that is before Chaos War came out).



    DIGGER

  7. #7
    Alpha Flight

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    I looked him up for different examples, and I'll give it to Bair that he's great at sexy pin up art. But I hate his work in Alpha Flight. The page layouts just look so wonky to me, as do some of the faces, though the faces might be partially the work of this terrible inker. In all fairness, I know bad inkers alone can ruin the art. But I just see issues like too much talking heads, the use of too many tiny panels on a single page to express an action sequence that could have been done in fewer panels with more dynamic art, and then there's the 'are those the characters viewed from the top of a building or ants' type panels, complete with the itsy bitsy depictions of the characters doing wonky poses... And characters' heights keep changing around, too. Just looks real sloppy... maybe he got better later in his career? Also, I never liked the idea of super heroes just wearing leotards. God forbid one of them step on something sharp in battle. lol So if I see toes through fabric, it bugs me. XD

    Thank you for your well wishes, though. I don't mean to bash an artist you like but, like I said, maybe the early part of his run on Alpha was just rough?
    "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me thrice, you must be Marvel."
    -FlightPath07 Don't you feel all important now?

  8. #8
    Harvester of Sorrows Department H
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    Bair's work on Catwoman: Her Sister's Keeper was excellent.

    - Le Messor
    "Can you describe the individual?

    He was about medium height and had a beard.
    Was this a male, or a female?"
    ~ alleged real court transcript.

  9. #9
    I'm a RealWyldeChild Alpha Flight
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    the use of too many tiny panels on a single page to express an action sequence that could have been done in fewer panels with more dynamic art
    As Dale Eaglesham's better half recently pointed out to me, the artist has no control over the amount or size of panels per page, he has to go by what the writer tells him to do on the page.
    Support Artists, Not Companies! Creator-owned comics are where the real art is at!

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by EccentricSage View Post
    I looked him up for different examples, and I'll give it to Bair that he's great at sexy pin up art. But I hate his work in Alpha Flight. The page layouts just look so wonky to me, as do some of the faces, though the faces might be partially the work of this terrible inker. In all fairness, I know bad inkers alone can ruin the art. But I just see issues like too much talking heads, the use of too many tiny panels on a single page to express an action sequence that could have been done in fewer panels with more dynamic art, and then there's the 'are those the characters viewed from the top of a building or ants' type panels, complete with the itsy bitsy depictions of the characters doing wonky poses... And characters' heights keep changing around, too. Just looks real sloppy... maybe he got better later in his career? Also, I never liked the idea of super heroes just wearing leotards. God forbid one of them step on something sharp in battle. lol So if I see toes through fabric, it bugs me. XD

    Thank you for your well wishes, though. I don't mean to bash an artist you like but, like I said, maybe the early part of his run on Alpha was just rough?
    I wouldn't say I liked him, tolerated maybe, preferred over others maybe but I was being sarcastic about being able to see the toes of our heroes (that drove me nuts about as much as some of the yoga poses he put the characters in).

    DIGGER

  11. #11
    Alpha Flight

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    Flightpath,
    Wait wait... the writer doesn't just describe what happens on each page, but NUMBERS the panels and dictates the details of each panel? Well damn, guess who's never going to bother with the industry then? LOL That's some hard core micro-managing.

    Digger,
    Oh. XD
    'Yoga Poses'. That is a damn good way to put it. Don't forget the porno poses. XD One of the pages I came across on google was downright hilarious.
    "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me thrice, you must be Marvel."
    -FlightPath07 Don't you feel all important now?

  12. #12
    Déesse? First Flight
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    Aw, FlightPath, I could hug you for caring enough to listen and re-post that info! You wouldn't believe how much misinformation is out there, so it often feels like "educating one person at a time." Feels great when the correct info then starts making its way around.

    Let me add a bit more detail, for those who care:

    In the old days, artists used to get plots only, which was cool. That way the storytelling was left to them, and the writers then added the dialogue later. It was more work for the artist, but in my opinion produced a more dynamic final product. Nowadays, most scripts include a very specific, page-by-page, panel-by-panel description. The artist CAN add or remove a panel, but it's tough,as you're about to see...

    Let's say there's something a little vague in the script and the artist wants to clarify things a little, he or she might have to add a panel for clarity's sake. But if there's already 6 panels in the script, you risk having an overly busy page. Hm. What to do? Cluttered-but-clear page or dynamic-but-unclear page? Dale is a stickler for clarity, so he'll sacrifice his art looking "pretty" so that the readers can follow the storytelling without getting confused. He always says "I serve the story first." Unfortunaetly, that means he often isn't as "flashy" as other artists.

    Conversely, sometimes you might find you can combine two panels when they're redundant or one is unnecessary. Sounds easy, but there's a hundred little things to consider. For example, dialogue in comics must always go from left to right. When writing and drawing for comics, you have to ALWAYS keep that in mind. Well, let's say you have a team like Alpha Flight, and in panel 1 you established their positions in a room or around a table. You have Guardian speak first. He has to be on the left. The more characters are in the scene, the trickier it gets to choreograph. So there may be panels you would like to combine so you get a nice, juicy, dynamic panel, but you CAN'T because of the order of the dialogue. So, no-can-do. Argh.

    Sounds complicated? Yep. It really, truly is. I'm just the WIFE of an artist, not the artist. After over decades spent together, I know a lot of the rules, but I'm just scratching the surface still. These are just two very, very basic ("Comics 101") rules out of the hundreds of factors that every artist must consider when planning each page and panel. It's an incredibly complex job that, in my opinion, is greatly unknown and often misunderstood.

    So there you have it. Hope you found this interesting and helpful!

    Wolfie
    I never said I was objective.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flightpath07 View Post
    As Dale Eaglesham's better half recently pointed out to me, the artist has no control over the amount or size of panels per page, he has to go by what the writer tells him to do on the page.
    It also depends on the writter. There are some writters who give alot of freedom to the artist.

  14. #14
    Alpha Flight
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie View Post
    Aw, FlightPath, I could hug you for caring enough to listen and re-post that info! You wouldn't believe how much misinformation is out there, so it often feels like "educating one person at a time." Feels great when the correct info then starts making its way around.

    Let me add a bit more detail, for those who care:

    In the old days, artists used to get plots only, which was cool. That way the storytelling was left to them, and the writers then added the dialogue later. It was more work for the artist, but in my opinion produced a more dynamic final product. Nowadays, most scripts include a very specific, page-by-page, panel-by-panel description. The artist CAN add or remove a panel, but it's tough,as you're about to see...

    Let's say there's something a little vague in the script and the artist wants to clarify things a little, he or she might have to add a panel for clarity's sake. But if there's already 6 panels in the script, you risk having an overly busy page. Hm. What to do? Cluttered-but-clear page or dynamic-but-unclear page? Dale is a stickler for clarity, so he'll sacrifice his art looking "pretty" so that the readers can follow the storytelling without getting confused. He always says "I serve the story first." Unfortunaetly, that means he often isn't as "flashy" as other artists.

    Conversely, sometimes you might find you can combine two panels when they're redundant or one is unnecessary. Sounds easy, but there's a hundred little things to consider. For example, dialogue in comics must always go from left to right. When writing and drawing for comics, you have to ALWAYS keep that in mind. Well, let's say you have a team like Alpha Flight, and in panel 1 you established their positions in a room or around a table. You have Guardian speak first. He has to be on the left. The more characters are in the scene, the trickier it gets to choreograph. So there may be panels you would like to combine so you get a nice, juicy, dynamic panel, but you CAN'T because of the order of the dialogue. So, no-can-do. Argh.

    Sounds complicated? Yep. It really, truly is. I'm just the WIFE of an artist, not the artist. After over decades spent together, I know a lot of the rules, but I'm just scratching the surface still. These are just two very, very basic ("Comics 101") rules out of the hundreds of factors that every artist must consider when planning each page and panel. It's an incredibly complex job that, in my opinion, is greatly unknown and often misunderstood.

    So there you have it. Hope you found this interesting and helpful!

    Wolfie
    Thanks for taking the time to explain all of this! I always love learning about the nuts and bolts of comic book creation.

    So do all writers do this panel by panel description now? Or are there still writers today who just hand artists the plot? If they just hand them the plot, that means they need to go in after the layouts are done to script the story, right?
    Now Showing "Return from LurkWorld 3:Can I Have A Life Please?"

  15. #15
    I'm a RealWyldeChild Alpha Flight
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    Aw, FlightPath, I could hug you for caring enough to listen and re-post that info!
    You should really pass this on to my ex-wives, who say I never listen. At least, I think that is what they said. (I know their mouths were movin', but...)
    Support Artists, Not Companies! Creator-owned comics are where the real art is at!

    My new website! http://lifelessordinarywebnovel.com/home.html Follow my super-powered web-novel adventures, "Life Less Ordinary"!

    Twitter (1) = @RealWyldeChild
    Twitter (2) = @lifewebnovel

    FaceBook = https://www.facebook.com/realwylde.child or search for me at " Life Less-Ordinary "

    Also 'occasionally' ranting Alpha Flight related stuff at http://canadas-own-the-flight.blogspot.com/

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