We're all Alpha Flight fans, right...?

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I can't pass this thread up...

...because Alpha Flight started wracking up a lot of characters that just don't make any sense:

Radius [can't eat without forcefield-nullifying thingy, so how does he go to the bathroom?], Flex, Murmur*/Persuasion, and my most hated character, considered by some Alphans themselves to be worthy and right for the team----LIONEL (Monster-making savior of the team) JEFFRIES.

* These guys wouldn't last twenty seconds against a well-written Great Beast; I keep going back to it, but the story itself confirms that the newbies couldn't even take down Mesmero...Mesmero! Couldn't bring myself to pick on volume 3 since I consider it an "imaginary story" and I like the artwork...but that group didn't deserve to call itself 'Alpha Flight', either. Don't hate them, though.

[Tawmis]

I can't pass this thread up...
my most hated character, considered by some Alphans themselves to be worthy and right for the team----LIONEL (Monster-making savior of the team) JEFFRIES.

To be fair, I am not sure if Lionel/Scramble, was technically ever a part of any "team" of Alpha Flight (Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Omega)... He was more of a (bad) story element.

Admittedly, I did dislike Aurora during this time, where she was all over Roger just because he had legs...

[suzene]

Actually, the Aurora personality was in 100% control when the relationship began, so no consent issue with her. IIRC, Walt was never anything but a concerned comforter to Jeanne-Marie. It's possible I am forgetting a scene, but I don't think Walt ever had relations with Jeanne-Marie, only Aurora. When the personalities were briefly put into balance during the X0Men Alpha LS, the merged persona did not spurn Walt.

I don't blame Sasquatch for entering a romantic relationship with Aurora, but for continuing it once her mental illness surfaced. When the Jeanne-Marie personality was dominant in AF #3, she absolutely wanted nothing to do with him, going so far as to strike him and flee when he told her the nature of their relationship. But he was fine with cohabitating with Aurora when she came to him in AF #10 despite that, and they were still together 10+ issues later. Jeanne-Marie Beaubier is the base personality, and just because she wasn't in control of her body or aware of what was being done to it doesn't make it all right -- it's at the heart of what makes the whole thing so skeevy. And even aside from the sexual aspect of the relationship, agreeing to experiment on your mentally unstable, emotionally distraught girlfriend when you don't know what the full effects will be is dodgy enough on an ethical level, but Walt went one step beyond and didn't fully disclose what he assumed those effects would be.

So yeah, no love for Walter from this fangirl.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Mac...I (like John Byrne) found him to be so booooorrrring (it also seems no writer knows what to do with him when they bring him back from the dead and he ends up being killed off again)...If you're going to keep him around, please make him interesting! I was never a fan of Manikin, Persuasion, Feedback or Goblyn (I'm indifferent to Laura Dean). I also didn't like Bill Mantlo's handling of Roger Bochs, the character was absolutely ruined during that time.

I didn't like Murmur, Flex, Manbot, Radius and Ghost Girl.

I also disliked Major Mapleleaf Sr and Jr and Puck II (mostly because she embodied way too much of every bad trend...Tattoooed, rave painted, belly-shirted, baggy pants, visible thong! Argh!)...Centennial was Superman as a senior citzen (I really didn't like Volume 3 as a whole). I've disliked pretty much every characterization of Nemesis after Mantlo had her turn to dust, she was never the same again. I'm not a fan of Earthmover either.

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

I don't blame Sasquatch for entering a romantic relationship with Aurora, but for continuing it once her mental illness surfaced. When the Jeanne-Marie personality was dominant in AF #3, she absolutely wanted nothing to do with him, going so far as to strike him and flee when he told her the nature of their relationship. But he was fine with cohabitating with Aurora when she came to him in AF #10 despite that, and they were still together 10+ issues later. Jeanne-Marie Beaubier is the base personality, and just because she wasn't in control of her body or aware of what was being done to it doesn't make it all right -- it's at the heart of what makes the whole thing so skeevy. And even aside from the sexual aspect of the relationship, agreeing to experiment on your mentally unstable, emotionally distraught girlfriend when you don't know what the full effects will be is dodgy enough on an ethical level, but Walt went one step beyond and didn't fully disclose what he assumed those effects would be.

So yeah, no love for Walter from this fangirl.

I understand where you're coming from, Suzene...But maybe Walter was in love with Aurora...Maybe that's why he couldn't break things off with her? As far for the experiment to alter Aurora's powers, Walter had selfish motives in doing the experiment, he wanted to drive a wedge between Aurora and Northstar...So he could have Aurora all to himself. Love sometimes makes us monsters.

Dana

[suzene]

I understand where you're coming from, Suzene...But maybe Walter was in love with Aurora...Maybe that's why he couldn't break things off with her? As far for the experiment to alter Aurora's powers, Walter had selfish motives in doing the experiment, he wanted to drive a wedge between Aurora and Northstar...So he could have Aurora all to himself. Love sometimes makes us monsters.

Perhaps, but what you're painting are two scenarios that are, at best, explanations, not excuses, and when the explanation is "He did it because he cared about his own happiness/libido/experiment more than he did his vulnerable lover's well-being" it's not making a case for why I should even like the character, let alone cut him any slack.

[Tawmis]

I don't blame Sasquatch for entering a romantic relationship with Aurora
(Snip)
So yeah, no love for Walter from this fangirl.

You know, that's an interesting take on Aurora and Sasquatch's relationship...! But then... when she switched back and forth... one side wanted Walt, one side wanted nothing to do with him... So imagine, if you will, Suzene, if you were in a relationship with someone... and dated them for quite some time... and everything seemed normal... then one day on a date, another persona emerges, and says they want nothing to do with you.

Do you break up? Because the person suffers from MPD - even though one side says they love you, and your love is everything they have dreamed of? Do you break up with them and break their heart, even though they have no memory of the other persona when it takes over - and thus don't recall them ever telling you?

[mos_def]

Wow, its Tawmis. I havent seen you since you wrote fanfics.

Characters are disliked. Hmm???

Manikin, Wyre and Feedback. everyone else was fine to me

[Alpha Rider]

Everyone is forgetting the big thing about good old Walt. He was married.

[suzene]

You know, that's an interesting take on Aurora and Sasquatch's relationship...! But then... when she switched back and forth... one side wanted Walt, one side wanted nothing to do with him... So imagine, if you will, Suzene, if you were in a relationship with someone... and dated them for quite some time... and everything seemed normal... then one day on a date, another persona emerges, and says they want nothing to do with you.

Do you break up? Because the person suffers from MPD - even though one side says they love you, and your love is everything they have dreamed of? Do you break up with them and break their heart, even though they have no memory of the other persona when it takes over - and thus don't recall them ever telling you?

What I would do is absolutely irrelevant to a discussion of Walter's character, so please don't derail. If what you mean to ask is what Walter possibly could have done in an admittedly difficult situation, there are more options than just breaking up, though even that's not necessarily a bad option, as there are worse things you can do to a person than walk away from them.

The situation is that the woman Walter had been dating and was, at the least, very fond of, suddenly began acting wildly unlike herself in a moment of duress, acting as if he were attempting to rape her each time he made any overture of physical affection, but eventually snapped out of it, with variable, if any, memory of what happened. The first thing would be to get her some professional help. The second thing would be policing his own behavior, especially once he found out that the person he thought he knew was the splinter personality and not the original -- when consent is in doubt, you err on the side of caution; his sexual frustration should have taken a distant back seat to her well-being. He'd need to accept that if explaining why he was acting the way that he was put him in the doghouse with the person he thought he knew and loved, that he'd have to suck it up and hope things got better with time. And if he found himself unable to adjust to the new state of things and found that he couldn't cope, then yes, breaking up would be the responsible thing to do. Whatever relationship he thought he had with Aurora ended the moment he found out about Jeanne-Marie's existence, and pretending otherwise was simply selfish on his part.

[DIGGER]

Dana, it's difficult for me to agree with the GUARDIAN=BORING because in the first 12 issues, the stories dealt with numerous characters, not just one. There was really no character development for Mac because of the roster of other characters. Yes Puck had his own story for an ish, and the Marrina/Master story lasted a couple but the only spotlight on Guardian was his origin story. The potential for his character was never fully realized. He was obviously a brilliant engineer/designer but his development was cut short by issue 12. The same boring tag could be placed on Shaman as well... gee an Indian who is a Shaman...how original. But it is because we were allowed to see the angst brought out through the introduction of Elizabeth/Talisman that Shaman became a more interesting character.

The only reason I'm writing this is because somebody else already mentioned the "Radius and how he goes to the bathroom thing" before I did! As for my least favourite characters...ALL BUT BYRNE'S... except for the Box/Transformer, man, I really hated that one (loved the original).

DIGGER (unofficial spokesman for the James Hudson/Guardian is not boring party...and yes I'm sure he knows how to party too!)

[Legerd]

Honestly, Snowbird, as originally written by Byrne, always seemed a useless character to me. She's a demi-god with flight, superhuman physical attributes, postcognitive abilities and mystical resistance, but her main power was to turn into albino versions of animals native only to the Canadian arctic. WTF? Really? And to make her even more useless, she risked losing herself in the animals mentality if she stayed in animal form too long. Plus, she couldn't transform between animals, having always to revert to her human shape first. And the final kicker, she couldn't cross the Canadian border without it being fatal to her.
It seemed nonsensical to give her the power to transform into a polar bear when she already was physically superior, and why turn into an owl when she could already fly? She didn't need to have the keen senses of a wolf to track someone down when she could simply look into the past and see where her quarry had gone. I figure, since she was supposed to be a champion for the Northern Gods, she should have been a warrior-god, naturally adept in all forms of combat and capable of going toe to toe with any physical or mystical menace. After all, what's the use of being able to turn into an arctic hare when facing one of the Great Beasts?
With that said, however, I liked FVL's take on her in the God Squad book during Secret Invasion. She was brave, tough, skilled and used her metamorphic abilities well. Hell, it was she who killed the big bad Skrull god even though Herc got all the credit. I think Snowbird is one of those characters begging to be revamped and reintroduced to the modern readers by having her godhood explored more in depth. And having just typed that I realize how dirty it sounds.

[Flightpath07]

Love sometimes makes us monsters.

That is deep. And true. And deserves it's own post.

As far as my take on the Sas-Aurora relationship...I think it all boils down to how Byrne felt about feeling forced into writing a series with characters he didn't want anything more to do with. We all talk about how the characters are all flawed...it think it is Byrne's hatred of them that made them so flawed, that made him write them that way. Their flaws made them human...but the more you dig into their motives for what they did, the more i start to think that these are not really the types of heroes I want anymore. They are not, after all, that heroic. Their morals are shown to be lacking, their decisions often horrible, the consequences drastic for those closest to them.

Considering all these things, is it any wonder that somebody without our innate love for Alpha Flight, would mock these characters and think them stupid failures?

I love Alpha Flight, I really do.

I'm just starting to think...maybe they should have stayed dead, for good...? Maybe we need heroes who are more...heroic, than they were?

[Tawmis]

Wow, its Tawmis. I havent seen you since you wrote fanfics.

I'm like Jesus. I resurrect and appear again like every couple thousand years.

What I would do is absolutely irrelevant to a discussion of Walter's character, so please don't derail.

I had no intention of derailing. Thought you brought up an interesting point and was curious how you might react in a similar situation, to perhaps understand Walt's situation.

Honestly, Snowbird, as originally written by Byrne, always seemed a useless character to me.The final kicker, she couldn't cross the Canadian border without it being fatal to her.
It seemed nonsensical to give her the power to transform into a polar bear when she already was physically superior, and why turn into an owl when she could already fly?

I admittedly hated the Canadian Border thing... like a line drawn by MAN would dictate where a Demi-Goddess' powers should suddenly stop and prove nearly fatal to her? That part I disliked. But her transforming to owls, bears, etc, I actually liked. To me, this is a common thing you hear about Indian type deities, that they take the form of the wolf, the coyote, the eagle, etc. As for her human form, in an owl, she could perhaps gain the abilities of an owl that she didn't have as Snowbird (superior sight, hearing), and in bear form, she got the bear's strength, claws, etc. So the transforming made sense to me... just not the border limit.

I'm just starting to think...maybe they should have stayed dead, for good...? Maybe we need heroes who are more...heroic, than they were?

I can't help but wonder, when X-MEN sales were slacking back in the 60s and 70s, that they were forced to go to reprints, if they thought the same thing - that perhaps the X-MEN should just go away?

Hell no. All it took was someone with some balls and some true writing talent (at the time) and an incredible artist - to take the X-MEN and reinvent them into the cash cows they are now. ALPHA FLIGHT could get some incredible treatment, if given some love. Even the newest series of THOR got that treatment - we got a THOR who was BEYOND powerful and was in no mood to take any crap from anyone. And they reinvented him, gave him an updated look, etc. And it all came together. I don't think giving up on ALPHA FLIGHT is the answer. We have some dynamic looking characters. We just need someone who knows what to do with them.

[MistressMerr]

What I would do is absolutely irrelevant to a discussion of Walter's character, so please don't derail. If what you mean to ask is what Walter possibly could have done in an admittedly difficult situation, there are more options than just breaking up, though even that's not necessarily a bad option, as there are worse things you can do to a person than walk away from them.

The situation is that the woman Walter had been dating and was, at the least, very fond of, suddenly began acting wildly unlike herself in a moment of duress, acting as if he were attempting to rape her each time he made any overture of physical affection, but eventually snapped out of it, with variable, if any, memory of what happened. The first thing would be to get her some professional help. The second thing would be policing his own behavior, especially once he found out that the person he thought he knew was the splinter personality and not the original -- when consent is in doubt, you err on the side of caution; his sexual frustration should have taken a distant back seat to her well-being. He'd need to accept that if explaining why he was acting the way that he was put him in the doghouse with the person he thought he knew and loved, that he'd have to suck it up and hope things got better with time. And if he found himself unable to adjust to the new state of things and found that he couldn't cope, then yes, breaking up would be the responsible thing to do. Whatever relationship he thought he had with Aurora ended the moment he found out about Jeanne-Marie's existence, and pretending otherwise was simply selfish on his part.

But consent wasn't in doubt, Aurora was entirely willing. MPD/DID is a tricky area, because while Aurora/Jeanne-Marie is technically one woman with a mental illness, for all practical purposes, they're two very different people and were treated as such by everyone around her. Walter entered into a relationship with the one and not the other, and I just can't fault him all that much for seeing it that way. It's not like he was forcing himself on Jeanne-Marie while she was the dominant personality, at least once he had a handle on what exactly was going on. That and the idea that neither personality should be allowed to date and fall in love because the other might disagree just doesn't sit well with me. Having to share a body with offshoots of your own mind is already a violation in and of itself, Jeanne-Marie's perspective on Walter's relationship with Aurora is, at worst, just an unfortunate part of that. Also, when she was cured of her illness in the X-Men/AF mini, she was still A-OK being in the relationship with him, which is pretty telling to me.

I'll give you the part where he experimented on her, though, that was a pretty dick move. His entire origin story is that he did the exact same thing to himself, though, so I don't really hold it against him.