Civil War: The Initiative- (SPOILERS!!) Alpha Flight related

[Obsidian3d]

Hehehe I think we're sort of arguing in circles now. The Initiative book is actually quite well written, and Silvestri's art looks in fine form. I'm certainly not dreading reading Omega Flight, and having Mailman Mike in the suit could have some very interesting plot points from both sides. I still disagree with it on a personal level, but narratively speaking it has potential.

Imagine what you can do with it. Tony Stark has what he considers his inside-man in US Agent. He'll expect Walker to follow orders and essentially run the team. Reed having made Weapon Omega's new suit could be similar to the suit Tony had made for Spiderman. It will likely have tracking capabilities, as well as a cut-off switch or something like that. Now, even though he's in a Canadian outfit, they are ostensibly in control of that person. If he doesn't do what they say he's screwed and goes back to jail.

The Canadian public will of course react much in the same way we have on the boards, crying foul over an attack on our soveriegnty by American officials etc etc. So between US Agent and Weapon Omega, plus dealing with other new personalities on the team, as well as whatever foes they'll be encountering...well let's just say there is a lot of possibility there.

So, I'm really hoping it will strike a chord with readers on both sides of the border and make them think a little more about their neighbor's value. It could get more than a little political along the way, but I'm hoping that at least it will have something poigniant to say in the process. So now it's up to Mike and Scott, and I'm looking forward to see where they go with it.

[Captain Primate]

Hehehe I think we're sort of arguing in circles now. The Initiative book is actually quite well written, and Silvestri's art looks in fine form. I'm certainly not dreading reading Omega Flight, and having Mailman Mike in the suit could have some very interesting plot points from both sides. I still disagree with it on a personal level, but narratively speaking it has potential.

Imagine what you can do with it. Tony Stark has what he considers his inside-man in US Agent. He'll expect Walker to follow orders and essentially run the team. Reed having made Weapon Omega's new suit could be similar to the suit Tony had made for Spiderman. It will likely have tracking capabilities, as well as a cut-off switch or something like that. Now, even though he's in a Canadian outfit, they are ostensibly in control of that person. If he doesn't do what they say he's screwed and goes back to jail.

The Canadian public will of course react much in the same way we have on the boards, crying foul over an attack on our soveriegnty by American officials etc etc. So between US Agent and Weapon Omega, plus dealing with other new personalities on the team, as well as whatever foes they'll be encountering...well let's just say there is a lot of possibility there.

So, I'm really hoping it will strike a chord with readers on both sides of the border and make them think a little more about their neighbor's value. It could get more than a little political along the way, but I'm hoping that at least it will have something poigniant to say in the process. So now it's up to Mike and Scott, and I'm looking forward to see where they go with it.

Very well said!

[Phil]

Again, to me they're just fictional stories and as long as there aren't slurs or stereotypes, it wouldn't bother me if an American or anyone else was in the Captain Britian uniform.

That's the point, it is considered a slur to have an American wearing the Canadian flag in this case. As a European you may not get the resentment Canadians feel when other nations consider us watered down Americans. It's annoying to know that no matter what things your nation accomplishes, it's always considered a second class version of the US. So when real life writers and editors okay a story that shows an American wearing the uniform (designed after the nation's flag) of a Canadian hero who represented his country, it seems the folks at Marvel think any old American can substitute for a Canadian hero. A real life attitude appearing in a fictional story.
That may not be the intention, but that's how it's coming across.

Right, but my point is, that not being Canadian I don't have that to base it upon.
All I can do is enjoy the story for what it is and hope it doesn't disrespect Byrne's writing, real-life politics aside.

[Phil]

Sorry Phil, but I must respectfully disagree with you on this. The characters who were killed, were primarily from a failed title from 15-20 years ago.

The name of which was given to the two following volumes which are fresh in the public memory and are the only Alpha Flight that some younger readers may have ever read. The characters are still associated with those volumes simply because of the team.

And many of them weren't seen in the later issues of that title when it finally did fail. Which gets us back to Dana's sentiment. Alpha Flight was alsways a success.

If it was always a success they wouldn't have changed it and it wouldn't have failed, surely?

Once they started mucking around with the family feel and giving us characters we didn't recognize as Alpha, that's when the series all failed.

Why did they have to 'muck around' with the family feel though?
Because they were losing sales and needed something different else they'd just be reprinting Byrne's run ad nauseum.

Other than those characters in the first 30 or so issues of V1, there are only 2 others I ever really considered part of the team, Talisman and Persuasion. Anything that came after seemed very insignificant to the team.

Yet is still canon and therefore connected to the characters that were killed off.

[Phil]

Phil, try to imagine how a Scot, and a nationalist one, might feel about a "Captain Scotland" character, if there was one, being an English man with no Scottish roots.

I'm not one, so can't.

Maybe that might illustrate a bit to you why Canadians find an American being put into a Canadian Flag based costume objectional.

It doesn't in the slightest I'm afraid.
I'm not Canadian and never will be, so why would I try to insult a Canadian by presuming what they think?
All I can do is get my own personal enjoyment from the stories.
To me the Canadian aspect of Alpha Flight has always been irrelevant.
I just enjoyed the stories and the writing.
Had Byrne been born in Germany and put AF in Germany back in Uncanny X-Men I'd still enjoy the title for what it was (although obviously there's less of the mystic element etc etc that would change the title slightly).
To me the book was about the team dyanamics, not the country dynamics.

Omega Flight will hopefully be the same.

Canadian's live right next door to a huge power that overshadows our culture much of the time, and one that takes Canada for granted for the most part, being largely ignorant of our value to them. There's a long history of America ignoring Canada's contributions and taking us for granted. The most infamous example would be the aftermath of 9/11. Most air traffic headed for the US was diverted to Canada after the attacks, and Canada took care of thousands of Americans. And thats just one example.

When the American president was thanking the various countries that helped out not long after 9/11, Canada wasn't even mentioned. And thats just one of many examples of Canada being ignored, belittled or taken for granted by America.

That's fair enough, but I read comics for escapism and that doesn't enter my mind.

As for Pointer, so far, there's no rational ewhy he'd be in the maple leaf design guardian suit.

There's no rational why any real life human being would be....

[Corvus]

Phil, try to imagine how a Scot, and a nationalist one, might feel about a "Captain Scotland" character, if there was one, being an English man with no Scottish roots.

I'm not one, so can't.

So, you don't have an imagination? No offense, but thats rather a cop out.

[Ben]

Speaking of a proud, patriotic Canadian, who has no time for certain "American attitudes" I have absolutely no problem with Michael Pointer wearing the "Guardian" suit. He was involved the the apparent death of Guardian and other members of Alpha Flight. He feels the need to atone for his actions. He has a debt to repay to Canada, and wearing this suit to defend the country seems in some way fitting to me.

Ben

[SmurfInABlender]

It doesn't in the slightest I'm afraid.
I'm not Canadian and never will be, so why would I try to insult a Canadian by presuming what they think?
All I can do is get my own personal enjoyment from the stories.
To me the Canadian aspect of Alpha Flight has always been irrelevant.
I just enjoyed the stories and the writing.
Had Byrne been born in Germany and put AF in Germany back in Uncanny X-Men I'd still enjoy the title for what it was (although obviously there's less of the mystic element etc etc that would change the title slightly).
To me the book was about the team dyanamics, not the country dynamics.

Omega Flight will hopefully be the same.

You know, you bring up a good point. The beauty of Alpha Flight ESSPECIALLY Byrne's flight, delt with the fact that they were in their own lives.. they didn't always get along and all had deapth... Seems to me this new one might accomplish the idea of them having their individual world and reason for being in Omega...

I think the problem is, there are so many great places for storylines, so many possible amazing storylines.. that it is going to be hard to jsut have a 5 issue mini... this is unlike V2 and V3 which were written TO BEGIN WITH in a dead end.. I mean V3 had the main alpha flight gone... so what? they were never goign to come back? it was stupid, and V2 had the government conspiricy which had potential in a way but they took away most of the personality of our favorite characters and threw in a bunch of new ones.

Here we have a set of Predefined characters who will definently not get along, I mean, do you think Arachne will take any crap from Iron Man's inside man? And so all are defined in some way but at the same time are not an "all star" team so they can be written in a way where there is conflict within the team.

The fact that Mike isn't Canadian I can understand as being perhaps insulting.. But I think it can work... and I agree with Phil on the fact that because I'm not Canadian I can't relate.. even though you can throw analogies of filling Captain America's shoes... I wouldn't feel insulted honestly, I mean Captain America would stand even MORE for America if an Immigrant to the country took over.

Who knows if I'm even making sense

[varo]

i'd really hate to say this, but i'm american and i never really cared that alpha flight was based in canada and never saw the characters as "canadian" i just always liked the characters and the stories. i could care less if the series was based in iceland.

then again i can understand if canadians are upset that a candian is not wearing their flag. its just that i think michael wearing the suit makes sense, its not forced.

[DelBubs]

I think there's been some good points raised here about Mailman Mike and the suit. The question that comes to my mind is, "Is Guardian/Vindicator" a person or an idea. Captain America to me has always been a physical representation of what America is about. Can we consider Guardian as the same, but in regards to Canada. Does it matter who wears the suit as long as the true values of Canada and the concept of Guardian/Vindicator are represented by that wearer ?

[Flightpath07]

I think there's been some good points raised here about Mailman Mike and the suit. The question that comes to my mind is, "Is Guardian/Vindicator" a person or an idea. Captain America to me has always been a physical representation of what America is about. Can we consider Guardian as the same, but in regards to Canada. Does it matter who wears the suit as long as the true values of Canada and the concept of Guardian/Vindicator are represented by that wearer ?

I think it does matter. A lot.
If it is true that Reed Richards made the current "Guardian" suit that Mike is to be wearing in the mini-series, it should matter a lot.
I realize that Mr Oeming prob fully intends to hash all this out in the comic itself; the American control over what happens on Canadian soil, the American-made suit that allows Americans to control and monitor the American non-hero in the suit made from a Canadian flag that used to be worn by the most respected hero in Canada, the American heroes in Canada to try to clean up the mess that American villain (and heros) made while fleeing one country for another.
But even igf Mr Oeming is writing disrespect to Canada into the mini-series so that he can expose it and deal with it - I still do not have to like it.
It still sucks.
Does the end really justify the means?
Is it worth it? I mean, even if Mr Oeming writes the comics so that even the thickest headed person can see that he is saying that America should have a lot more respect for its Canadian neighbors than it does - is that worth the cost of seeing our flag, and James Mac Hudson, disrespected, and having lost all of our nations greatest heroes in a useless battle that wasn't even seen?

[DelBubs]

There would seem to be a lot of ifs and buts in there Flightpath. Couldn't it just be that a man who was used against his will to commit atrocities wishes to atone for what he was forced to do? Sas was the one who gave him the suit, Sas found the members to make up AF in vol 3, it wouldn't have been that hard a job to find someone else. Maybe this just shows that Walt is a humanitarian and wishes to ease the grief that Mike is going through.

Sometimes something is just what it seems. I ain't saying this is thew case, just that it might be and might be's is all we have until the book comes out.

One thing I do agree on is that a team of AF's staure should not have been wiped out off panel, their demise is cheapened if that is all we get.

[Mokole]

Well, they made the suit to look like Guardian because they want fans to recognize this is a Flight comic, not some random comic. Someone has always worn a Guardian suit or close (biggest 'reach' is MML) so without a Guardian-looking suit the recognition factor falls. Captain Britain in Excalibur, Captain America in Avengers.

[Phil]

Phil, try to imagine how a Scot, and a nationalist one, might feel about a "Captain Scotland" character, if there was one, being an English man with no Scottish roots.

I'm not one, so can't.

So, you don't have an imagination? No offense, but thats rather a cop out.

No, it's more a case of me respecting the Scots and not presuming how they think or act or trying to enforce my viewpoints into their mouths.
I'm not Scottish so how dare I presume to act like a Scotsman?
For me to stereotype an entire nations thoughts and attempt to speak for them? That's just rude.

[SephirothsKiller]

Phil, try to imagine how a Scot, and a nationalist one, might feel about a "Captain Scotland" character, if there was one, being an English man with no Scottish roots.

I'm not one, so can't.

So, you don't have an imagination? No offense, but thats rather a cop out.

No, it's more a case of me respecting the Scots and not presuming how they think or act or trying to enforce my viewpoints into their mouths.
I'm not Scottish so how dare I presume to act like a Scotsman?
For me to stereotype an entire nations thoughts and attempt to speak for them? That's just rude.

Okay, I know alot of people from all over the British Isles and so I'll tell you. Scots, Welsh people, the Irish, and so on would probably be really offended. Particularly the Welsh. I mean I'm sure not every person from these places has these hangups, but everyone I know from these nations does.