Article: Amazing X-Men #11 Solicitation

[Phil]

It did contradict. When last seen, Heather had run away from Mac with their daughter. Now they've apparently been living together again for some time. It's totally opposite to what we last saw of the characters (Heather at least).

That's not a contradiction though; that's unspecified, off-panel development.
Contradiction would be saying that Volume 4 never happened and that Mac & Heather have never fought before, or don't have a child.

Even a splash page recap would take no more space

That I agree on.

I disagree because we actually don't know what the fight was about. We're just told that there was one.

That's the point though; we don't need to know what the fight was about to understand what a fight is.
If Heather says 'we had a fight' a new reader knows what a fight is because it's a commonly shared occurrence - they don't need to know the backstory.

They can't even be bothered with a basic mention. "We fought over Clare again". Five words solve several complaints; you know why, you ackowledge their kid, and you indicate that it's fairly common.

I agree. They SHOULD have done that in #8.
They didn't so it will be awkward to do so in #9-12

No, you don't need all of that stuff because if someone wants to find out, the material IS out there.

If Amazing X-Men #8 was your first ever comic, how would you know where to look though?

I don't know if Marvel never ever does footnotes anymore, but restoring it to say "see Alpha Flight volume four" is hardly an insurmountable barrier, if the dialogue alone doesn't do enough to explain that she took off under a bad situation, came back, and the whole thing put a strain on their marriage.

Again, I agree; footnotes, like recap pages, solve this issue so easily. I'm a big fan of footnotes.
Marvel doesn't use them though. Possibly because most readers these days are edging towards trades and digital comics where the footnote becomes obsolete.

The things I refer to, that I feel should have been handled better, are things that are NOT stated anywhere. There was nothing to suggest that Mac and Heather were back together or that Heather had a change of heart about Mac being a suitable father. It's just thrown out there out of nowhere.

You're saying that as a Mac & Heather fan, and someone who read Volume 4.
The small detail doesn't change the plot of the story; yes it makes 18,000 continuity fans (myself included) sleep a bit easier, but it isn't essential to the plot. Unfortunately.

There's no point in having a shared universe if things that happen to a character in one book are ignored in others.

Not bringing something up is different to ignoring something though.

I'm not expecting the writers to build on what happened in AF v4, but I do expect them to recognize that it happened and write accordingly.

It is still accordingly though; until the moment it specifically contradicts it - If the characters suddenly announced they'd never had a baby or that they'd never had a fight, I'd be screaming from the rooftops.

I agree with a lot of what everyone, including you, has been saying - there are things that should have been handled better. It wasn't. This was why I didn't like the issue.
However, now that it hasn't been mentioned trying to mention it later in the arc will just tie the story in knots.

[Le Messor]

You have to assume that there aren't many family members who would want to babysit these days...

I don't see why not...?

[Le Messor]

That's the point though; we don't need to know what the fight was about to understand what a fight is. If Heather says 'we had a fight' a new reader knows what a fight is because it's a commonly shared occurrence - they don't need to know the backstory.

Yeah, I agree with you here.

Marvel doesn't use them though. Possibly because most readers these days are edging towards trades and digital comics where the footnote becomes obsolete.

Two disagreements (maybe?) :
1) I could swear I've seen footnotes make a comeback in SOME recent Marvel comics. They're still rare, but I think they're happening again.
b. People still need to know which trade / digital comic to read. (This is more a disagreement with Marvel than you.)

I agree. They SHOULD have done that in #8.
They didn't so it will be awkward to do so in #9-12

While you're right, it WOULD have been better in #8, I think it could still be done somewhere in #9-12 without too much awkwardness - we will be spending more time with the Alphans in that time.

~ Le Messor
"Murphy was an optimist."

[Flightpath07]

It did contradict. When last seen, Heather had run away from Mac with their daughter. Now they've apparently been living together again for some time. It's totally opposite to what we last saw of the characters (Heather at least).



I'm not asking for more. I'm saying apply the ones used better. Even a splash page recap would take no more space or as I said earlier, dialogue more appropriate and specific to the character(s).



I disagree because we actually don't know what the fight was about. We're just told that there was one. They can't even be bothered with a basic mention. "We fought over Clare again". Five words solve several complaints; you know why, you ackowledge their kid, and you indicate that it's fairly common.

As it is, it ends up feeling like they needed Mac gone for a couple of days so they said "let's just say they had a fight". You're left to assume the reason, and because I don't see Mac as the type of walk out on someone he didn't want walking out on him, it makes no sense to me.



Which is equivalent in sales by today's standard, as you stated.



No, you don't need all of that stuff because if someone wants to find out, the material IS out there. I don't know if Marvel never ever does footnotes anymore, but restoring it to say "see Alpha Flight volume four" is hardly an insurmountable barrier, if the dialogue alone doesn't do enough to explain that she took off under a bad situation, came back, and the whole thing put a strain on their marriage.

The things I refer to, that I feel should have been handled better, are things that are NOT stated anywhere. There was nothing to suggest that Mac and Heather were back together or that Heather had a change of heart about Mac being a suitable father. It's just thrown out there out of nowhere.



If they use a character from the past, yes. There's no point in having a shared universe if things that happen to a character in one book are ignored in others. I'm not expecting the writers to build on what happened in AF v4, but I do expect them to recognize that it happened and write accordingly.

I find myself in complete agreeance with TSOG.

You have to assume that there aren't many family members who would want to babysit these days...

ROFL.

[Phil]

I find myself in complete agreeance with TSOG.

I'd be shocked if you didn't 😉

[TSOG]

That's not a contradiction though; that's unspecified, off-panel development.
Contradiction would be saying that Volume 4 never happened and that Mac & Heather have never fought before, or don't have a child.

...

You're saying that as a Mac & Heather fan, and someone who read Volume 4.
The small detail doesn't change the plot of the story; yes it makes 18,000 continuity fans (myself included) sleep a bit easier, but it isn't essential to the plot. Unfortunately.

The difficulty I have with the approach in the top part is that you could apply it to anything. ADMITTEDLY EXTREME EXAMPLE: Have Diamond Lil appear in issue 9. If I claim that contradicts earlier work, you could just say "not really, she just came back to life and they didn't explain how. It all took place off panel".

So yeah, you've got me pinned in the reader-type description, of course. But I'm also reading a shared universe. My expectation of continuity is not outrageous and shouldn't come as a surprise to the writers.

Where it frustrates me particularly in this case though is that it could have been so EASY. You're rightfully concerned about confusing X-Men fans or eating up too much of their book space, so thin it down even more. "I came back to see if I could patch things up with Mac. I tried to reach him at work and Dept. H said they sent him on a mission, but haven't heard from him in two days. I'm really worried, Logan."

That's it. X-Men fans know what they need to, Alpha fans see a little care applied towards the characters' recent history. NOW both sides are accommodated. It's simple and it's because it's so simple that not bothering to make the attempt felt lazy to me.

[Phil]

The difficulty I have with the approach in the top part is that you could apply it to anything. ADMITTEDLY EXTREME EXAMPLE: Have Diamond Lil appear in issue 9. If I claim that contradicts earlier work, you could just say "not really, she just came back to life and they didn't explain how. It all took place off panel".

That's the beauty of comics though; it's non-linear and we can use flashbacks.
In the above situation as long as it was part of the plot of the ongoing storyline and used as a mystery device with the aim of being explained at some point then I'd be fine with it.
If it was just a continuity gaff missed by writer and editors then I agree.

Look at The Master & Gary Cody in Vol.4 - nowhere was it explained how they were back.
Nemesis in Vol.1; originally supposed to be the same character as the spirit of retribution.
Corsair in All-New X-Men/Cyclops
Star-Lord in the recent GOTG.

So yeah, you've got me pinned in the reader-type description, of course.

Not in an offensive way; apologies if it came off as that.

But I'm also reading a shared universe. My expectation of continuity is not outrageous and shouldn't come as a surprise to the writers.

Okay; let's flip it slightly:

Amazing X-Men #8
Pg 4, panel 4 - Wolverine has a different costume to the one he had in #6 - with no explanation.
Pg 6, panel 5 - Colossus is said to have been a 'wanted murdered and fugitive' How? Why? How is he now free to walk up to the mansion door? The last detail certainly wasn't answered in the last issue of Cable & X-Force.

Yet you're not questioning these; you're focusing on the AF related ones because you're an AF fan.

A shared universe works in two ways; there has to be a point where you can't spoonfeed information to every single person, and as the old adage goes - every comic is someone's first comic; it has to find the middle ground between continuity and accessibility.

As Colossus says on Pg 6, panel 5 - "Perhaps some things are better left unquestioned."

so thin it down even more. "I came back to see if I could patch things up with Mac. I tried to reach him at work and Dept. H said they sent him on a mission, but haven't heard from him in two days. I'm really worried, Logan."

I'm genuinely struggling to see how that's different from what was actually published?

That's it. X-Men fans know what they need to, Alpha fans see a little care applied towards the characters' recent history. NOW both sides are accommodated. It's simple and it's because it's so simple that not bothering to make the attempt felt lazy to me.

Yet your example there doesn't mention Claire, or The Master's brainwashing or anything from Vol.4 which I thought was your (and other people's) point in this whole debate, so I'm very confused.

[TSOG]

Look at The Master & Gary Cody in Vol.4 - nowhere was it explained how they were back.

And that's just as wrong to me. Felt as though I'd missed something. There are gaps in my collection though so for all I knew it HAD been covered.

Okay; let's flip it slightly:

Amazing X-Men #8
Pg 4, panel 4 - Wolverine has a different costume to the one he had in #6 - with no explanation.
Pg 6, panel 5 - Colossus is said to have been a 'wanted murdered and fugitive' How? Why? How is he now free to walk up to the mansion door? The last detail certainly wasn't answered in the last issue of Cable & X-Force.

Yet you're not questioning these; you're focusing on the AF related ones because you're an AF fan.

True. But if I were any sort of an X-Men fan, I would be questioning them as well. In those cases, I just didn't realize there was something there to question, so I haven't. I also assume that the story about Colossus is SOMEWHERE, I'm just not interested in nowhere where.

A shared universe works in two ways; there has to be a point where you can't spoonfeed information to every single person, and as the old adage goes - every comic is someone's first comic; it has to find the middle ground between continuity and accessibility.

You keep acting as though I'm demanding volumes of recap. I explained that modified dialogue alone would have been preferable to me, and perhaps even quicker than what was in the book. I don't need them to explain their entire relationship from when they met. Just recognize where these characters were the last time they were in use. It doesn't have to be inaccessible, done properly.

I'm genuinely struggling to see how that's different from what was actually published?

...

Yet your example there doesn't mention Claire, or The Master's brainwashing or anything from Vol.4 which I thought was your (and other people's) point in this whole debate, so I'm very confused.

It's different because instead of them suddenly being together again, completely opposite to when we last saw them, it explains that Heather is looking for Mac in order to GET back together. Right up to the moment that she says those lines, they're apart. Makes more sense with Heather's last in-book appearance and is no more confusing to X-Men fans. "They were apart? Whatever."

I'm trying to meet halfway. You explained earlier that you don't want to clutter the book with info X-Men fans don't need. So forget even mentioning the brainwashing part. Alpha Flight fans will know why Heather and Mac have been apart, X-Men fans don't get a bunch of stuff they don't want or need. And it takes up no more space, aside for perhaps a line for Clare, if I can come up with a decent one.

[Phil]

But if I were any sort of an X-Men fan, I would be questioning them as well. In those cases, I just didn't realize there was something there to question, so I haven't. I also assume that the story about Colossus is SOMEWHERE

That's the point then - you're an AF fan, not an X-Men fan.

On an X-Men board somewhere there are X-Men fans not bothered at all about the gaps in AF history, but arguing the same thing about the X-gaps.
And given it's their book that's more their remit.

And the Colossus stuff hasn't been touched.

You keep acting as though I'm demanding volumes of recap.

No, just pointing out that at this stage it's like pulling on a loose thread and that one bit of recap will lead to needing another and so on and so forth.

I explained that modified dialogue alone would have been preferable to me, and perhaps even quicker than what was in the book.

And again, I agree it would have been, but it wasn't there.

I don't need them to explain their entire relationship from when they met.

You don't, no.
Because you know who the characters are.

Just recognize where these characters were the last time they were in use.

Which the 'bad year' technically does.

It doesn't have to be inaccessible, done properly.

Agreed.
However it wasn't done properly.
Had it been we wouldn't be having this.

It's different because instead of them suddenly being together again

It's not suddenly though; it's been a year.

it explains that Heather is looking for Mac in order to GET back together. Right up to the moment that she says those lines, they're apart. Makes more sense with Heather's last in-book appearance and is no more confusing to X-Men fans. "They were apart? Whatever."

That's fair enough, and works.
However, it wasn't there in #8...

I'm hoping that after reading all this Craig & Chris put something in #10 or 11, no matter how out of place or badly written, with the sole purpose of shutting us all up.

[TSOG]

That's the point then - you're an AF fan, not an X-Men fan.

Entirely irrelevant. If someone were to appear in an Alpha book, I would expect that character's most current situation to be taken into account.

No, just pointing out that at this stage it's like pulling on a loose thread and that one bit of recap will lead to needing another and so on and so forth.

...

You don't, no.
Because you know who the characters are.

If it's done properly, it's not at all a problem. Do you believe that the dialogue I described earlier will cause mass confusion among X-Men fans or first-time readers? No more than what was actually there, except that mine considers people who buy Alpha Flight as well. The writers should have applied the same consideration.

Which the 'bad year' technically does.

It's not suddenly though; it's been a year.[/QUOTE]

It IS sudden to readers who are aware of the past. I went in having every expectation that they were no longer a couple, just to find out that they were, but the other one had walked out. Totally different situation, so it felt sudden. Why? Because a writer couldn't be bothered to alter his dialogue slightly to explain it, while not alienating X-Men readers or someone picking up the book for the first time.

Telling me it's been a bad year does me no good at all in explaining why what I thought was true no longer is, something that could have been done without impact to other readers. It's just a lazy way out.

[Flightpath07]

I'm hoping that after reading all this Craig & Chris put something in #10 or 11, no matter how out of place or badly written, with the sole purpose of shutting us all up.

Oh, I'm pretty sure that is impossible. The 'shutting us up' part, I mean. After all, we do have this wonderful forum here to do our complaining (and high-fiving and rejoicing) in.

Although, if shutting us up becomes their goal, they can certainly end THIS conversation by merely killing off all of Alpha Flight in the next issue or two.

[Crackity Jones]

I am so lost.

[Crackity Jones]

And nobody better kill off my Alpha Flight. Well, Heather can bite it, but the rest? HANDS OFF.

[Le Messor]

I am so lost.

Is there a smoke monster trying to kill you?
Look around, see if you can find something with which to fashion a rudimentary lathe.

Actually, you might want to avoid this thread. It's spoilery for things that are way after volume 1.

~ Le Messor
"And there is no line here."
~ Morris Major and the Minors

[Flightpath07]

And nobody better kill off my Alpha Flight. Well, Heather can bite it, but the rest? HANDS OFF.

Don't worry; that'll NEVER happen.