Marvel Universe To Be Completely Rebooted, DC Style? *RUMOUR*

[Flightpath07]

Yeah, I'm intrigued. And glad it's not a reboot.

Hm. One again, OTOH, here is what i am thinking; this may not be a reboot (and I doubt Marvel will EVER call it that, as then it looks like they are following DC's lead), BUT this is a way to "change the past" and by so doing the present also. For instance, after the event is over, we could have a world where; Mac died and stayed dead, Jean never became Phoenix and left Scott for Wolverine, Hulk is intelligent, Bucky died in WW2 and never became Winter Soldier, Nick Fury is black (oh, wait...), Gwen Stacey never died, Spidey married Black Cat, Captain America looks a lot like Johnny Storm (huh?), and the Avengers team more closely models after the one in the movies (Cap, Iron man, Hulk, Black Widow, Giant Man [Pym] and Wasp, for instance).

Now, this wouldn't be a "reboot" because nobody at Marvel will use the reboot term, but...it would be a complete, one fell swoop, game changer.

[Tawmis]

Hm. One again, OTOH, here is what i am thinking; this may not be a reboot (and I doubt Marvel will EVER call it that, as then it looks like they are following DC's lead), BUT this is a way to "change the past" and by so doing the present also. For instance, after the event is over, we could have a world where; Mac died and stayed dead, Jean never became Phoenix and left Scott for Wolverine, Hulk is intelligent, Bucky died in WW2 and never became Winter Soldier, Nick Fury is black (oh, wait...), Gwen Stacey never died, Spidey married Black Cat, Captain America looks a lot like Johnny Storm (huh?), and the Avengers team more closely models after the one in the movies (Cap, Iron man, Hulk, Black Widow, Giant Man [Pym] and Wasp, for instance).

Now, this wouldn't be a "reboot" because nobody at Marvel will use the reboot term, but...it would be a complete, one fell swoop, game changer.

I could actually see all of that happening - except the Winter Soldier thing. For reasons beyond me, he's become a cash cow for Marvel, even more so after the movie (which I admit was excellent...)

[TSOG]

While the 'two worlds collide' thang certainly lends itself to a reboot idea, nothing I read in that article screamed at me 'we're rebooting the universe!'. It all came across to me as a very clever marketing ploy. 'Here's a way to get a preview of a year and a half in advance; and if you read all our comics between then and now, you'll be caught up'.

Fiendishly cunning.

~ Le Messor
"Nothing puzzles me more than time and space; yet nothing troubles me less."
~ Charles Lamb

I recall Image doing something similar with Stormwatch years ago. They released issue 25 right after issue 12 (give or take) then spent the next year catching up as to why the team's membership was different. etc. Kind of neat, unless you decided to jump on at issue 20 then wondered why they went from 24 to 26 (I don't recall if 25 was released a second time, but I don't think so).

[mrdann1205]

see things is i HATE the new 52 with a passion, i hate how they totally destroyed one of my favorite supervillians (captain cold) with ice powers hell they even wrote it in saying that captain cold himself thought it was a mistake to give himself powers so if marvel did that i can really see them destroying alot of characters by being stupid like this. i mean they tried making everything new with the ultimate universe way back in 98 and i hate that more then the new 52. just keep 616 and leave it alone, we don't need another heroes reborn for 3 or 4 months and having them write it out since it was so bad.

[TSOG]

see things is i HATE the new 52 with a passion, i hate how they totally destroyed one of my favorite supervillians (captain cold) with ice powers hell they even wrote it in saying that captain cold himself thought it was a mistake to give himself powers so if marvel did that i can really see them destroying alot of characters by being stupid like this.

Hmmm...I don't know the character very well, and I haven't completely finished the story but I can tell you this; in Forever Evil, Cold is pretty damn cool (no pun intended), and he doesn't seem to have powers as such because he makes a "cold gun" from spare parts.

I have yet to read the stories specific to the Rogues so I don't know if that's a new thing or what. He may have lost his powers earlier on in Forever evil or in one of the many tie-ins, I don't recall.

Mind you, he's about to become a Justice League member, so maybe that ruins it anyway...

[Le Messor]

see things is i HATE the new 52 with a passion... i mean they tried making everything new with the ultimate universe way back in 98 and i hate that more then the new 52. just keep 616 and leave it alone,

That's one advantage Ultimate has over the Nu52 - as much as it's a much worse universe, at least it left 616 intact.
I was reading 2 DC titles before Nu52 wiped them out. Then, I read 2 different Nu52 titles... one got cancelled, the other got boring.

But, overall I agree - I liked the original and mainstream universes better than either new one.

we don't need another heroes reborn...

We don't need to know the way home...s reborn.

Haven't you got beyond Thunderdome?

~ Le Messor
"Anything that can become tangled around something else, will."
~ J.D. Boatwood

[Tawmis]

see things is i HATE the new 52 with a passion, i hate how they totally destroyed one of my favorite supervillians (captain cold) with ice powers hell they even wrote it in saying that captain cold himself thought it was a mistake to give himself powers so if marvel did that i can really see them destroying alot of characters by being stupid like this. i mean they tried making everything new with the ultimate universe way back in 98 and i hate that more then the new 52. just keep 616 and leave it alone, we don't need another heroes reborn for 3 or 4 months and having them write it out since it was so bad.

Well here's where we disagree. First, let me say I was not a huge DC fan. Let's get that out of the way right now. As a matter of fact, I actually hated many of the main characters in DC. Superman - what, he can only be beat by this super, extremely rare, alien rock pretty much? And magic? Which was almost non existant in the original DC Universe. And Batman - this dude just can't be beat. Ever. No matter what.

Regardless of that hatred, pre-New 52, I picked up Aquaman, Hawkman, Titans/New Teen Titans/Teen Titans (whatever name they were going by), and Outsiders. (I think that was it). Then they did the first "52" event - where they did a 52 issue, every week. (Pre New 52). They shuffled everything around. Hawkman, became Hawkgirl. Booster Gold was some major player. Titans and Outsiders got shuffled around, and Outsiders got cancelled. I was so beyond lost. I eventually dropped Hawkman and Outsiders, and kept with Aquaman and Teen Titans. Eventually, even those got so crazy, I had no idea what was happening, and dropped those titles.

Meanwhile, Marvel, which I had been collecting for over 30 years now, was growing increasingly worse, by the moment for me. My Uncanny X-Men was in shambles - with horrible writing, horrible characters, and horrible artists. Avengers? They were a joke, after the Disassembled story line.

I was, literally, on the verge of dropping all of my titles, and just picking up a comic if it looked interesting by the issue, not by the series.

Then DC said, "We're rebooting everything and doing this New 52 thing."

I said, "All right, let me check this out."

I picked up almost every #1 issue, save for a few. And not only was the writing, back to the classic, good, writing I remember from the late 70's and early 80's - but the art was crisp and clean, on all the titles. As this progressed, I found myself picking up more New 52 DC titles, and dropping more Marvel titles to be able to afford more DC titles. I found myself immensely enjoying Superman and all the Batman titles I got (Batman, Batman: Dark Knight, and Batman: Detective Comics). I picked up titles like International Justice League - which had no characters I recognized, except Guy Gardner (from Green Lanterns, even then I knew very little). And it had some odd ball characters - that reminded me of Alpha Flight or New Warriors. Sadly, it got cancelled. But I loved it none the less. I found myself picking up Wonder Woman, which I didn't do originally because the art, and loving it. I went back and collected all the issues of it, Catwoman, Birds of Prey (after Batgirl joined), I was picking up so many DC titles, and still do now - all the while dropping more Marvel.

If my future self had come back to me, 3 years ago and said, "One day, you will drop almost all of your Marvel titltes to collect DC - including Superman, Batman and Batgirl - and you will love it!" - I would have punched my future self, stomped on my chest and laughed. I would have NEVER believed it. But it's true - I collect something like 6 DC titles to 1 Marvel title now.

And you mention Captain Cold - as stated in this thread already - Forever Evil and the Rogue's Rebellion not only highlight Captain Cold, and the rest of the Rogues - but I was actually screaming for a new series featuring these guys! The writing in Rogue's Rebellion was nothing short of amazing and fun!

[Le Messor]

Future you can take on past you!

70s-80s writing? Really? That's cool. Everything I'd seen about it screamed 90s at me.

[Tawmis]

Future you can take on past you!
70s-80s writing? Really? That's cool. Everything I'd seen about it screamed 90s at me.

See the 90's were corny, for the most part (there was some good stuff, naturally - I believe the first Alpha Flight was still happening in the 90's, the New Warriors were in the 90's). But to me, it feels like 70's/80's - because it feels like it went back to its basic roots. There isn't a ton of unneeded angst. Heroes are heroes, villains are villains. I am sure, give it 10 years, it's going to be messy and convoluted - but for the most part, it's staying on track. Writers are on titles for a year or more, so there isn't weird hand offs. And even when there is, for example Birds of Prey, they have, for the most part felt so impossibly smooth that the only way to tell it's a different writer is by looking at the credits.

But again, one must take into account, I wasn't a huge DC fan. I have heard how a lot of characters have been "ruined" from their original concepts. So that may be why I am not biased as much as others.

But if Marvel could do a reboot like the New 52, I think I would be ready to embrace some of those changes.

[Le Messor]

See the 90's were corny, for the most part (there was some good stuff, naturally - I believe the first Alpha Flight was still happening in the 90's, the New Warriors were in the 90's).

While I'm not fan of the 90's, 'corny' is hardly the word I would use. But then, I'm only quibbling over semantics.
Actually, I just like to say 'quibble'.

Quibble quibble quibble quibble quibble quibble

You are also right that there were good things at the time - both titles you listed (though it wasn't best of AF's times, it wasn't the worst of times either), and Young Justice were all 90s, for example. And Supergirl at the time. And Teen Titans (for a little while, then they got bad) and Deathstroke... In fact, I've said before that in the 90s Marvel managed to do what DC and even I hadn't managed before - to turn me to DC.

But to me, it feels like 70's/80's - because it feels like it went back to its basic roots. There isn't a ton of unneeded angst. Heroes are heroes, villains are villains.

Not too much angst is cool.
"Heroes are heroes"... I didn't read much of the Nu52. I've mentioned collecting two titles: JLI (which you've talked about; it was okay, but never one I was in love with) and Green Arrow (which opened with an Alpha Flight reference, and then kept me reading until it got boring with a change of writer).
BUT, I was also lent the first five issues each of Superboy, Supergirl, and Teen Titans.
In those fifteen issues, they spent a lot of time talking about heroism, and how they were heroes and anybody they didn't like wasn't.

In those fifteen issues, they tried to save people from anything precisely twice. They succeeded precisely once. Mostly, what they fought was each other. They spent most of their time destroying people's property and livelihoods for their own internal squabbling, while yelling about being heroes.

Yeah...
(The Supergirl issues set up for her to save the world next issue, and apparently she did, but too little too late.)

Writers are on titles for a year or more, so there isn't weird hand offs.

That's a good thing... but it's not what I heard.

And even when there is, for example Birds of Prey, they have, for the most part felt so impossibly smooth that the only way to tell it's a different writer is by looking at the credits.

Specifically about BoP, especially; that the change of creative crew was disruptive and annoying to the readership, and brought with it a change of cast that nobody liked. All due to a unilateral and apparently arbitrary editorial mandate.
Either that, or I like using big words.
(Can't it be both?)

But if Marvel could do a reboot like the New 52, I think I would be ready to embrace some of those changes.

Embrace some of the changes? They'd have to screw up royally if no good came out of a reboot. I'd expect there to be some good things, things I'd embrace, to come out of it.
Overall, though, I doubt I'd be for it. I've invested a lot of time and emotion (and money, buying their comics) in a particular set of characters, getting to know them, learning the interweavings and connectedness. To have it all thrown away on a whim would be a slap in the face.

OTOH, the main reason I never got into DC was that they had too much history. There weren't any titles I could start collecting and expect to get the whole run. So that's kinda hypocritical.

~ Le Messor
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
~ Andrew Lang

[Phil]

Actually, I just like to say 'quibble'.

Quibble quibble quibble quibble quibble quibble

The trouble with quibbles...

[Tawmis]

Not too much angst is cool.
"Heroes are heroes"... I didn't read much of the Nu52. I've mentioned collecting two titles: JLI (which you've talked about; it was okay, but never one I was in love with) and Green Arrow (which opened with an Alpha Flight reference, and then kept me reading until it got boring with a change of writer).

My problem with Green Arrow, which I still (for some reason, still collect) is the art. I have found the art to never be on par with the story. And it seems to have gotten progressively worse.

That's a good thing... but it's not what I heard.
Specifically about BoP, especially; that the change of creative crew was disruptive and annoying to the readership, and brought with it a change of cast that nobody liked. All due to a unilateral and apparently arbitrary editorial mandate.
Either that, or I like using big words.
(Can't it be both?)
[/quote]

They got rid of one of the characters - but I believe that was the previous writer. And they brought in Condor and Batgirl. Other than that, I felt like the story has progressed smoothly. If I hadn't known that Christy Marx (who I love as a writer) was getting Birds of Prey, I don't think I would have noticed a hand off.

Embrace some of the changes? They'd have to screw up royally if no good came out of a reboot. I'd expect there to be some good things, things I'd embrace, to come out of it.

There is no doubt that a potential for nothing good coming of it is possible - Heroes Reborn, for me, is an example of that.

Overall, though, I doubt I'd be for it. I've invested a lot of time and emotion (and money, buying their comics) in a particular set of characters, getting to know them, learning the interweavings and connectedness. To have it all thrown away on a whim would be a slap in the face.

See, I feel like that I am ALREADY being slapped in the face. Repeatedly. The X-Men are nothing like the X-Men I remember and love. There's so many characters, I can't even remember who is who. And now there's Wolverine's school, with all these odd ball mutants, including a young Brood mutant? What? The Avengers are fractured into like 10 different teams, none of them representing the honor that really being an Avengers team embraces. Alpha Flight, well we all know how that is. Defenders, did you read Fraction's take? Shoot me now. The only good so far is the New Warriors and Amazing X-Men, both written by Yost. Other things have suffered - and when they had something great (Dan Abbnet & Andy Landing on ANYTHING was gold!), they do away with it eventually...

[Le Messor]

The trouble with quibbles...

LOL!!!

My problem with Green Arrow, which I still (for some reason, still collect) is the art...

I never liked the art side of it either.

Specifically about BoP, especially; that the change of creative crew was disruptive and annoying to the readership...

They got rid of one of the characters - but I believe that was the previous writer.

The story I kept hearing at the time was that it was the editors, who wanted the character for JLA, and nobody liked the idea. Except said editor.

There is no doubt that a potential for nothing good coming of it is possible - Heroes Reborn, for me, is an example of that.

Oh, I believe there could be a nothing-good reboot; but they're the exception. There's often something good.
That said, I believe you about Heroes Reborn. Nothing about it even caught my interest enough to read any of it, and you never hear about it anymore - except, perhaps, to compare with this Fantastic Four idea.
(I have read some issues of Heroes Return, and some of them were okay (none were GREAT).)

The X-Men are nothing like the X-Men I remember and love. There's so many characters, I can't even remember who is who.

Agreed. I keep collecting their serieses, reluctantly, because they're often the only thing that brings back the magic that got me into comics in the first place - which is soooo hard to find nowadays, especially from the Big Two - but I do often feel like I'm enjoying stories about a stadium full of strangers.
Yes, including a young Brood. Don't like the idea, but the character is actually pretty cool.

Defenders, did you read Fraction's take? Shoot me now.

I did not. But expect a glowing red dot to appear on your forehead any minute now...

The only good so far is the New Warriors and Amazing X-Men...

I've been enjoying both (but see above for my reaction to reading X-Men).
I got bored halfway through Dan Abnett's Nova and quit. Sorry.

~ Le Messor
"I am enclosing two tickets to the first night of my new play; bring a friend, if you have one."
~ George Bernard Shaw to Winston Churchill
"Cannot possibly attend first night, will attend second... if there is one."
~ Winston Churchill, in response.

[Tawmis]

I recall Image doing something similar with Stormwatch years ago. They released issue 25 right after issue 12 (give or take) then spent the next year catching up as to why the team's membership was different. etc. Kind of neat, unless you decided to jump on at issue 20 then wondered why they went from 24 to 26 (I don't recall if 25 was released a second time, but I don't think so).

A few of the image books did this. Stormwatch, Brigade, Bloodstrike, and some others - it was called something like "Days Of Tomorrow" or something, where they all jumped to issue 25, where everything was completely shaken up. And then spent from 12 to 25, trying to explain why things were in that state. Some, ironically, never even made it to issue 25, before it was cancelled. I disliked it, because it took one of the books I enjoyed reading (Bloodstrike) for absolutely brainless fun (not a lot of story in it), and broke the team up and made it so it was one guy in a mask, who was Bloodstrike.

[Tawmis]

The story I kept hearing at the time was that it was the editors, who wanted the character for JLA, and nobody liked the idea. Except said editor.

That may be the reason the series was made, and then cancelled within 12 issues. I enjoyed reading JLA. It wasn't a tight story - it felt like Defenders to me - a bunch of character, not too connected, who were just there to help out from time to time.

RE: X-MEN
Agreed. I keep collecting their serieses, reluctantly, because they're often the only thing that brings back the magic that got me into comics in the first place - which is soooo hard to find nowadays, especially from the Big Two - but I do often feel like I'm enjoying stories about a stadium full of strangers. Yes, including a young Brood. Don't like the idea, but the character is actually pretty cool.

Heh, see I love the Brood as ruthless, evil, villains - Uncanny X-Men #162-166 is some of my favorite space stuff with the X-Men, which features the brood and how ruthless they are. (Also happens to be the best drawings of the Brood, other than Uncanny X-Men #155). So a "nice" Brood just ... bothers me. And that it has glasses too? And sort of resembles a humanoid form, rather than the Brood form? All things I dislike about said mutant Brood.

I got bored halfway through Dan Abnett's Nova and quit. Sorry.

I think my heart just stopped...!