Crackity Jones' Discovery Of Alpha Flight

[Crackity Jones]

It's easy for me to sit here and judge now as I know what comes after Mantlo.
I pretty much went through the exact stages of emotions and views you went through; which is a sign that there's something universally wrong with Mantlo's run.

Yes, that there is. I just wonder what would have possessed him to do with the series what he did. A lot of it, so far, has seemed like shock value quality.
For example, Northstar being gay: I understand this was not allowed to be written about in comics back then, so that it was just strongly hinted on, but to me, it could have been hinted at differently instead of everyone making the occasional crack on Northstar. It was still done distastefully.

[Le Messor]

Maybe that's my problem then: I have no idea what Mantlo was going for. I just know what I am reading is messed up. haha. But what you say makes sense.

I'm still gonna put it on Mantlo; he's the one who didn't make his intentions clear.
OTOH, rape is okay if it happens to a guy (huge eyeroll here).

Yes, I agree and am well aware that my reaction to most of Mantlo's run so far has been that I'm reading it currently, so that will cause my reaction to possibly be different than had I read it in the 80's.

For example, Northstar being gay: I understand this was not allowed to be written about in comics back then, so that it was just strongly hinted on, but to me, it could have been hinted at differently instead of everyone making the occasional crack on Northstar. It was still done distastefully.

I don't know... If you read it back then, you might not know Northstar was gay. The jibes aren't as obvious without hindsight; so it's harder to say how you might react.
That said, Byrne handled it much better. Of course.

Because, yeah, times have changed. Things are accepted now that were not accepted then.

Many things have been lost that should not have been forgotten, and things have been found that perhaps were better left...
(I'm trying for Galadriel's voiceover from Fellowship here... the fact that I feel the need to tell you should say about how much I think I'm succeeding.)

It's easy for me to sit here and judge now as I know what comes after Mantlo.

And that's what I like about it; it's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, judging Mantlo's run. </Jack Handey>

I pretty much went through the exact stages of emotions and views you went through; which is a sign that there's something universally wrong with Mantlo's run.

Agreed.

Yes, that there is. I just wonder what would have possessed him to do with the series what he did. A lot of it, so far, has seemed like shock value quality.

Well, remember the guy was suffering a terrible burn-out at the time and was pretty much losing his art. He was actually a good writer, once.

~ Le Messor
"We love to scoff at the beliefs of the Ancients. But we can't scoff personally, to their faces, and that really bugs me."
~ Jack Handey

[Chris]

I don't know... If you read it back then, you might not know Northstar was gay. The jibes aren't as obvious without hindsight; so it's harder to say how you might react.
That said, Byrne handled it much better. Of course.

I did not realize Northstar was gay until issue 100 when Marvel published a letter about the "AIDS" storyline and discussing his orientation. I always thought he was just shy around women. I was 11 years old when I first started reading Alpha Flight in 1984. There's alot of things I didn't catch around that age of reading comic books. Then after rereading all those issues years later, it was like, how did I not see that?

[Crackity Jones]

I'm still gonna put it on Mantlo; he's the one who didn't make his intentions clear.
OTOH, rape is okay if it happens to a guy (huge eyeroll here).

Of course. It's bothersome that this would ever even be something people would think. Or could think.

I don't know... If you read it back then, you might not know Northstar was gay. The jibes aren't as obvious without hindsight; so it's harder to say how you might react.
That said, Byrne handled it much better. Of course.

I think it depends upon how old you were when you first read it. Which kind of goes into what Chris said. At 10 years old, I might not have known.
12 or 14? I would have caught on. Not during Byrne's run, maybe, but during Mantlo's? Yes, I would have known Northstar was gay.

And that's what I like about it; it's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, judging Mantlo's run. </Jack Handey>

HAHAHAHA. You're the best.

Well, remember the guy was suffering a terrible burn-out at the time and was pretty much losing his art. He was actually a good writer, once.

~ Le Messor
"We love to scoff at the beliefs of the Ancients. But we can't scoff personally, to their faces, and that really bugs me."
~ Jack Handey

No, I don't remember because I didn't know.
All I know of Mantlo, really, is that his AF run is, at best, questionable.

[Chris]

I think it depends upon how old you were when you first read it. Which kind of goes into what Chris said. At 10 years old, I might not have known.
12 or 14? I would have caught on. Not during Byrne's run, maybe, but during Mantlo's? Yes, I would have known Northstar was gay.

I guess I was naive. Or stupid. I always thought that disease Northstar had some sort of tuberculosis. Marvel couldn't mention AIDS or have gay super heroes back in 1987. But I am so glad Marvel decided not to kill Northstar. He has always been and will always be one of my favorite Alphans and super heroes.

[Crackity Jones]

I guess I was naive. Or stupid. I always thought that disease Northstar had some sort of tuberculosis. Marvel couldn't mention AIDS or have gay super heroes back in 1987. But I am so glad Marvel decided not to kill Northstar. He has always been and will always be one of my favorite Alphans and super heroes.

No. I wouldn't have thought AIDS then either. Not at 10, 12, or even 14. But I would have caught on that he was gay at 12 or 14. I would have been too young in 1987 to have caught onto either Northstar being gay or the AIDS thing.

[Tawmis]

Hate to be 'that guy' but Tawmis was spot on, #94 was his first issue; straight after GSXM #1

Hah! Don't worry, I am typically wrong. But when it comes to early Uncanny X-Men (especially with the "new" X-Men as in Storm, Colossus, Nightcrawler, etc) - I am rarely wrong about the comics back then. These days? I couldn't tell you anything about what Storm is up to, Colossus has done, etc... Sad, sad, day! But ask me about the old stuff - I am all over it!

Phil, don't we have a James Hudnall interview somewhere on the site, where he talks about Llan? Or was that one of the editors who talked about Llan? I definitely recall reading that the storyline was meant to be much longer than it was.

If he somehow says something good about Llan, I will scream.

Just read the interview. You know what, I'd give him another swing at the team too.

You're d@mn right. I am bashing Mantlo's run so far. I love these characters, and his run, so far, has been the trainwreck I cannot stop watching (reading). Making Purple Girl mind rape/control/WHATEVER Northstar and then having Heather make a joke about it is completely unacceptable, imo.

While I dislike Purple Girl, what she did to Northstar DOES make sense to me. She's young and irresponsible, not even considering consequences, as many of us did when we were 13, 14, 15, 16 and sometimes 17 years old. (I know some people in their 30's and 40's who live this way...)

Heather making jokes, is out of character. She's supposed to be the compassionate one - the heart of the team. And perhaps this is why I hate Heather in costume, because every since she put it on - she's lost all of her heart and soul.

I like Eugene the adventurer and I like the idea of Razaar but am in agreement that Puck should have remained what he was and should never have been a regular human before the curse.
Had Mantlo introduced Razaar into a dwarf Puck it would have been the best non-Byrne idea, IMO.
The height issue makes no sense at all and serves no purpose.

I can't remember if I said that in this thread, or the CBR thread - but I said the very same thing!

I think a lot of this issue is hard to judge in hindsight now.
Let's remember that at the time these comics were published they wouldn't have been able to show Northstar's sexuality, or even use the word 'gay' or 'homosexual' Mantlo was possibly trying to be subtle, based on what Byrne had told him, and was hindered by the comics code and editorial at the time.

and

For example, Northstar being gay: I understand this was not allowed to be written about in comics back then, so that it was just strongly hinted on, but to me, it could have been hinted at differently instead of everyone making the occasional crack on Northstar. It was still done distastefully.

and

I don't know... If you read it back then, you might not know Northstar was gay. The jibes aren't as obvious without hindsight; so it's harder to say how you might react. That said, Byrne handled it much better. Of course.

and

I did not realize Northstar was gay until issue 100 when Marvel published a letter about the "AIDS" storyline and discussing his orientation. I always thought he was just shy around women. I was 11 years old when I first started reading Alpha Flight in 1984. There's alot of things I didn't catch around that age of reading comic books. Then after rereading all those issues years later, it was like, how did I not see that?

See, I also think it depends on when you read it. I was probably 16 or 17 when I read this issue (back in 1996 or 1997 when it came out?). And back in 1996, as crazy as it sounds - there really wasn't a "gay" community. So I just read it as Aurora, typically just bickering with her brother - as most brothers and sisters do (I know, because I grew up with two sisters). I didn't pick up on the fact that he was gay, until quite a bit later - and even then, I wasn't even 100% sure. I was suspecting he liked guys - but didn't really know for sure, until #106. Looking back, and having re-read it, now I see Aurora's comments, around issue #8, where she says something along the lines, "Why? You have never had a problem being around men!" It's all VERY much more clear, nowadays...

It's a strange one, as I preferred Heather as the supportive wife and person that kept it all together behind the scenes in Byrne's run, however over the course of the 130 issue run I definitely think Heather is a better leader than Mac. Although that's probably based upon the dubious retcons of Mac's decisions that you have yet to reach...

I don't think Heather will ever be a better leader than Mac, because of her piss pour decisions she made during her time as the leader.

Well, remember the guy was suffering a terrible burn-out at the time and was pretty much losing his art. He was actually a good writer, once.

I agree. I enjoyed his run on ROM and MICRONAUTS (though by the end, both got quite strange...)

[Chris]

I agree. I enjoyed his run on ROM and MICRONAUTS (though by the end, both got quite strange...)

Being a huge ROM fan, I agree with what you say about ROM. I still haven't read Bill's entire Micronauts run yet. But I consider the team of Bill Mantlo and Sal Buscema the golden years of ROM. And when I say golden I don't mean Michael Golden. You ROM & Micronauts fans know what I'm talking about. Looking back, it seems to me that soon after Rom teamed up with Alpha Flight (which led me to start reading AF) and Sal Buscema leaving the book after issue 58, Bill had run out of ideas for ROM and decided to wrap up the book and end the Wraith War. The ending of the Wraith War seemed almost lackluster to me. Not sure if it was Bill's writing or Steve Ditko's art or both. And ROM's adventures in space trying to find Galador, killing off the Spaceknight Squadron from Rom Annual 2, wiping out Galador's population by evil 2nd generation Spaceknights, etc, were not my favorite ROM stories.

[Tawmis]

Being a huge ROM fan, I agree with what you say about ROM. I still haven't read Bill's entire Micronauts run yet. But I consider the team of Bill Mantlo and Sal Buscema the golden years of ROM. And when I say golden I don't mean Michael Golden. You ROM & Micronauts fans know what I'm talking about. Looking back, it seems to me that soon after Rom teamed up with Alpha Flight (which led me to start reading AF) and Sal Buscema leaving the book after issue 58, Bill had run out of ideas for ROM and decided to wrap up the book and end the Wraith War. The ending of the Wraith War seemed almost lackluster to me. Not sure if it was Bill's writing or Steve Ditko's art or both. And ROM's adventures in space trying to find Galador, killing off the Spaceknight Squadron from Rom Annual 2, wiping out Galador's population by evil 2nd generation Spaceknights, etc, were not my favorite ROM stories.

Not to detract the conversation too much - but if loved ROM, I'd recommend the ANNIHILATORS limited series (both of them).

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I'm one who dislikes the Mantlo era (which encompasses, unfortunately, the fill-in issue (#63) James Hudnall wrote before taking over the series), not only because it deviated so much from the plans and purpose stated in Amazing Heroes # 76 and Comics Feature # 42, but because it seemed as if the publisher went out of the way to destroy a team that was poised for greatness! And stringing the faithful readers along while Alpha Flight was ripped apart.

There are things that I don't attribute to the writer: Vindicator's goggles turning from blue-to-red in the middle of the Avengers-Namor-Marrina underwater story; Madison Jeffries dropping out of the Pestilence story (AF#s 37 & 38, then popping back in the book in # 39); the lack of consistency of the Wasp (and Attuma) in the AVENGERS and ALPHA FLIGHT, and; (most importantly*) Marrina's coloring going (willy-nilly) back-and-forth between green and yellow.


* We can't blame any of this...stuff on Skrulls, anymore, can we?

[Le Messor]

Hah! Don't worry, I am typically wrong. But when it comes to early Uncanny X-Men (especially with the "new" X-Men as in Storm, Colossus, Nightcrawler, etc) - I am rarely wrong about the comics back then.

The example in discussion notwithstanding, I'm pretty much the same. I loved the X-Men back then, and was really interested in them as people as much as characters (or heroes). Nowadays? Meh. I could tell you what Storm's up to, vaguely (she's divorced from T'Challa and teaches at one of Xavier's schools)... and stuff. That's it.

While I dislike Purple Girl, what she did to Northstar DOES make sense to me. She's young and irresponsible, not even considering consequences,

Making sense in real terms doesn't make it a good story in fiction terms.

Marrina's coloring going (willy-nilly) back-and-forth between green and yellow.
* We can't blame any of this...stuff on Skrulls, anymore, can we?

Are you trying to suggest we could blame anything about Marrina on shapeshifting aliens?

~ Le Messor
"Morality is common sense plus consensus."
~ Mark T. Shirey

[Crackity Jones]

Are you trying to suggest we could blame anything about Marrina on shapeshifting aliens?

And her pustule-babies-oh-wait-not-babies-false-heat whatever.

[Tawmis]

* We can't blame any of this...stuff on Skrulls, anymore, can we?

It'd certainly make things easier. Hades, not even the Skrulls thought to impersonate Alpha Flight, because they're so uninfluental, apparently...

The example in discussion notwithstanding, I'm pretty much the same. I loved the X-Men back then, and was really interested in them as people as much as characters (or heroes). Nowadays? Meh. I could tell you what Storm's up to, vaguely (she's divorced from T'Challa and teaches at one of Xavier's schools)... and stuff. That's it.

We are on the same boat.

Making sense in real terms doesn't make it a good story in fiction terms.

Not always no. But in some cases, it does work. I am not sure if you're reading the new NOVA series (with Sam Alexander) - the beginning of the series was pretty rough. But when Beta Ray Bill shows up (sorry I forgot who the writer was at this time) - the series definitely found it's stride. And it showed how inexperienced Sam was as a hero - his best intentions, were often failures, because of lack of experience. So, like I said, I strongly hated the Purple Girl character - but I could see why she did what she did. (I still hated the storyline, in general, mind you, because of my dislike of the character). But I could at least understand why she might do what she did and not even consider the consequences of what she was doing...

[Crackity Jones]

Why are you discussing these things that are not Alpha Flight, Tawmis? :P

#51 revealed that Heather has lost her mind (officially) and that even though Walter is back as Wanda (though, still Walter in spirit and mind, right?) since he has a female form, he's also decided that he likes boys and was flirting with Gary Cody.
That made me laugh.

[Tawmis]

Why are you discussing these things that are not Alpha Flight, Tawmis? :P

I am too discussing Alpha Flight! There was just a side bar, about how Bill could write well (ROM and MICRONAUTS), but even by the end, that got weird - then he said he was a ROM fan, which made me say he (and YOU! AND EVERYONE!) should check out ANNIHILATORS!

#51 revealed that Heather has lost her mind (officially) and that even though Walter is back as Wanda (though, still Walter in spirit and mind, right?) since he has a female form, he's also decided that he likes boys and was flirting with Gary Cody.
That made me laugh.

The Walter/Wanda thing, would have been funny for an issue or two... Sadly...