Mantlo Inconsistencies

[Chris]

I agree with Tawmis. Alpha Flight's problems didn't start when Mantlo and Mignola took over with issue 29. Byrne killing off second core character Sasquatch in issue 24 was a big mistake. Putting Walter's spirit in the Box armor was somewhat amusing for a couple of issues but then they got rid of Walter completely by issue 29, another big mistake. Back in issue 28, Walter should have asked the Beyonder to get his original body back. But then that Alpha Flight / Hulk crossover story would have gone differently, if not at all (which probably would have been better in hindsight.)

[Le Messor]

I can believe that being taken off a book you're enjoying doing (Hulk) and onto one you don't care about (Alpha Flight) would make for a bad book. And I can believe that Byrne had the clout to put himself onto Hulk if he wanted.

So, Jason, your theory is plausible. And, not really a conspiracy.

Also, we have a Bullwinkle Street in my city. (Well, it's Veronica Bullwinkel or something...)

~ Le Messor
"Hard work pays off in the future; laziness pays off now."

[Tawmis]

I agree with Tawmis. Alpha Flight's problems didn't start when Mantlo and Mignola took over with issue 29. Byrne killing off second core character Sasquatch in issue 24 was a big mistake. Putting Walter's spirit in the Box armor was somewhat amusing for a couple of issues but then they got rid of Walter completely by issue 29, another big mistake. Back in issue 28, Walter should have asked the Beyonder to get his original body back. But then that Alpha Flight / Hulk crossover story would have gone differently, if not at all (which probably would have been better in hindsight.)

You know, mixed with the other post about the Conspiracy theory - it makes you wonder about the HULK story some more right? Was Walter REALLY needed to be killed to set up the HULK story? Or was this a way for someone (Byrne?) - to essentially say, "Hey Alpha Flight fans - in the event you didn't know - I am going to be doing the Hulk comic! And here's how I am going to transition him - and make every Alpha Flight fan know! And perhaps drag some Alpha Flight fans with me over to Hulk!"

Because, really - the entire story of Walter being killed seemed to be one huge set up for the HULK storyline. I feel that could have certainly gone differently. Why not have a story where Walter goes after someone (a Great Beast) and they fall into the portal together and it closes behind them? Then do the Hulk story line, where they end up pulling out Hulk. That would have at least left the door open for the next writer to reach out to try and rescue Sasquatch and find him alive - rather than being forced to do the soul in Smart Alec, to Box, to Snowbird's body, as woman, then back to a man....

[Flightpath07]

rather than being forced to do the soul in Smart Alec, to Box, to Snowbird's body, as woman, then back to a man....

...which set the bar really high for other writers to take other Alphans and screw up their back story so as to be as unrecognizable as Sas's had just become. I mean, really, Alpha Flight gets treated way worse than Doom Patrol even, think about the back-stories (nowadays) of Mac, Heather, Puck, Sasquatch, Snowbird...like, seriously?!

So very, very frustrating, what was done to those characters. All of them, so very ill-treated.

When I think about it, it is no wonder that AF doesn't have a series right now. Seriously, without a complete reboot, a la New 52 by DC, how could anybody write these characters and expect anybody but a diehard fan to follow them! Too much confusion. Such a shame.

[Jason Eberly]

...which set the bar really high for other writers to take other Alphans and screw up their back story so as to be as unrecognizable as Sas's had just become.

How is Sasquatch's backstory unrecognizable. He's still a scientist who, in an attempt to duplicate Bruce Banner's creation of the Hulk under controlled circumstances, merged with a mystical beast and now turns into a big orange powerhouse named Sasquatch! That's all totally true today. All the stuff that happened in between? It doesn't need to ever be referenced if the writers don't want to. It doesn't mean that all that stuff (for good or ill) never happened, merely that it hasn't changed the origin or current status of the character.

I mean, really, Alpha Flight gets treated way worse than Doom Patrol even, think about the back-stories (nowadays) of Mac, Heather, Puck, Sasquatch, Snowbird...like, seriously?!

While I think Doom Patrol gets more respect than Alpha Flight, they both get treated pretty badly. Of those Alphans you listed, the only ones I think who really differs from their "classic" incarnation are Puck and Heather (of the current group). The rest, though...if you hadn't read a story about Snowbird since, say, the Byrne run, what would you need to be explained to be able to understand her status as of today (or of her last appearance...the last mini?)? Absolutely nothing.

When I think about it, it is no wonder that AF doesn't have a series right now. Seriously, without a complete reboot, a la New 52 by DC, how could anybody write these characters and expect anybody but a diehard fan to follow them! Too much confusion. Such a shame.

If convoluted histories were a major factor in the sales of comic books, the X-Men franchise would not have been popular since about 1986 (when it was revealed that the Jean Grey that died on the moon wasn't really Jean Grey, but a cosmic energy being that copied her form and--ANEURYSM!).

Again, I don't think the Alphans are that confusing. Try explaining Cable to someone. There is so much convolution in his basic backstory that it would probably take charts and timelines to be able to explain it. But explaining Snowbird? "She's the daughter of the Northern Goddess Nelvanna and a human tasked with protecting the Earth from the Great Beasts, her mother's family's ancient enemies. She can change her form to any animal native to Canada." Really...what more do you need to know?

I think Pak and Van Lente did a spectacular job of essentially "jettisoning" all but the basic concepts of these characters with the last mini (with some exceptions, like Puck being in Hell or that the Hudson's had a child).

And I don't believe any character, no matter how contradictory or convoluted, can't be at least seamed together into a cohesive whole by a writer willing to do so (and who has the talent). Geoff Johns did this with Hawkman wonderfully (in my opinion).

[Phil]

if you hadn't read a story about Snowbird since, say, the Byrne run, what would you need to be explained to be able to understand her status as of today (or of her last appearance...the last mini?)? Absolutely nothing.

She can now leave Canada.

Other than that I completely agree with all your other points.

[Le Messor]

rather than being forced to do the soul in Smart Alec, to Box, to Snowbird's body, as woman, then back to a man....

Technically, nobody was forced to do that; there were many other options. Including leaving Sasquatch dead.

Of course, part of the problem I've had with non-Byrne Alpha is that most of the artists draw him in particular as if they'd never even looked at Byrne's design; and I really like Byrne's design. It's so unique and well-defined.

how could anybody write these characters and expect anybody but a diehard fan to follow them!

But there are plenty of Die Hard fans in the world! Why do else you think they made so many of the movies?

if you hadn't read a story about Snowbird since, say, the Byrne run, what would you need to be explained to be able to understand her status as of today (or of her last appearance...the last mini?)? Absolutely nothing.

I'll second Phil on all this but:

I think Pak and Van Lente did a spectacular job of essentially "jettisoning" all but the basic concepts of these characters with the last mini (with some exceptions, like Puck being in Hell or that the Hudson's had a child).

And a major one - whatever the crap they did to Marrina. She was a polar opposite of her original character.

~ Le Messor
"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."

[Flightpath07]

How is Sasquatch's backstory unrecognizable.

I said back story, not origin. Jason, all your points are valid, except i was talking about the story of the characters as a whole, not just the origin of their powers. Back story, to me, means what has come before the current time.

But there are plenty of Die Hard fans in the world! Why do else you think they made so many of the movies?

For a moment there, Michael, I was in total agreement with you. Then i realized you were talking about the movies, and not the Youngblood character.

[Le Messor]

For a moment there, Michael, I was in total agreement with you. Then i realized you were talking about the movies, and not the Youngblood character.

The one doesn't negate the other.

~ Le Messor
"By Diehard's Crotch!"
~ Linkara (talking about the character, not the movies.)

[EccentricSage]

btw, I always figured that was an automatic program that did that, not something anybody at the site did on purpose.
And I've been telling that story irl ever since, as an example of some of the stupid things that happen ever since.

MODERATOR: The censoring is automated.

It was my fault, I'm pretty sure. I kept getting messages about my choice of language, so I requested the filter because altering my speech-to-writing pattern was cramping my style. Soooooryyyyyy... :3

Le Messor

And a major one - whatever the crap they did to Marrina. She was a polar opposite of her original character.

YES. No kidding. I never cared that much about her, but this sort of unrecognizable personality change for convenience sake is a pet peeve of mine, and I found her antics pedantic and '2 edgy 4 u'. Not to mention they made her too pretty. Byrne's Marina was uncanny valley creepy looking but with those cute mannerisms and sweet personality... That juxtaposition was the most interesting thing about her IMO.

What I could not forgive was how they messed up Heather so horribly just to give Mac a boost. It's like 'oh hay, your dead husband is back on the page, we don't need you to be a good leader anymore LOL, bye.' I could have forgiven that if the end of the story had made the story worthwhile and if the loose ends with her were tied up, but no... The writer liked Mac and didn't give a crap about fixing what he did to Heather. All for the big 'Alpha Flight are miserable failures' ending where Heather snaps out of it and stops the Master purely by chance.I had such high hopes, you know? There were some good points, but they left Alpha worse off for the run, IMO.

Wish I could comment more on the original topic of the thread but I'm not as well read as you guys. I can say I liked that he made Heather into Vindicator, and I liked that Madison Jeffries had tried to step into Mac's shoes in a way... I think that makes sense since Jeffries had been so invested in avenging Mac, and joining Alpha that he kind of threw his friends from Gamma under the bus. In a way, it's almost unsettling how he steps into the role he takes under Mantlo. He wants to do good but there's something about it that feels so wrong. Sometimes I see such potential in the subtle psychological possibilities of the characters, but the writers never seem to see it that way. *sigh* I think Wanda was actually a really neat idea. Gender essentialism vs gender conditioning could be explored quite a bit through that device. I'm missing the issue involving Smart Alec's body... What happened with that? I had assumed the writers had forgotten that Smart Alec was in Shaman's pouch. So... is he dead for real, or did he get put back in limbo after this whole musical chairs body swapping thing occurred?

Of course I hate what happened to Bochs. That was a travesty. And seriously, did Madison Jeffries kill both his own brother and his best friend but not develop any emotional breakdown from it? I have the issue where the **** hits the fan with Bochs, but not the ones after it. What if Madison is really borderline sociopath? Watching Dexter really got me thinking about how Madison is kind of cold and easy to manipulate into doing whatever gets him on a team, but then he's just this normal unassuming guy. At least, I think it works for explaining stuff like Weapon X and such. It syncs up well with him turning his back on Gamma Flight without looking back, and then just acting like everything is normal down the line when they resurface... no guilt. At least not in issues I have anyhow. Any one with a better collection have any thoughts on this?

[Jason Eberly]

I said back story, not origin. Jason, all your points are valid, except i was talking about the story of the characters as a whole, not just the origin of their powers. Back story, to me, means what has come before the current time.

Ah, I guess I'm just confused by what you mean by unrecognizable, then.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Page 157 in Sean Howe's book MARVEL COMICS, THE UNTOLD STORY sheds more light on the disparity that happens when new creators/creative teams take over than anything else I've seen: "* 'Whatever anybody else did was meaningless', Mantlo told Comics Feature. 'Your job was to come on to a book, and create it out of whole cloth. Marvel history meant nothing, but not because of Marvel history --- just that you were so intent on being better than the past writer, or showing how stupid the past writer was, that you went to great lengths to negate everything he said...Whoever took over was starting all over.' "

The Crossover is full of possibilities, and I think that both Byrne and Mantlo knew it. For whatever reason, though, it didn't work out the way it was planned [from the interviews in Amazing Heroes# 76 and Comics Feature # 42]. Alpha Flight didn't become super-popular on the newstand, and Byrne left the Hulk after his brief stint.

There are some good things that came out of the Crossover: (1) The original Smart Alec was also in the void, which was utilized during the Mantlo era; (2) Snowbird gave the speech that galvanized the team in # 29, and; (3) Incredible Hulk # 313 states the likelihood (I would say the inevitability, but that's up to MARVEL) that people who enter into the nexus are bound to be drawn back to it.

[Le Messor]

btw, I always figured that was an automatic program that did that...
MODERATOR: The censoring is automated.

Thanks, moderator, for the confirmation. (Which I've only just seen - I don't often read my own posts.)

YES. No kidding. I never cared that much about her, but this sort of unrecognizable personality change for convenience sake is a pet peeve of mine, and I found her antics pedantic and '2 edgy 4 u'.

Exactly.
(But is 'pedantic' the right word? It means, kinda, forcing literal-mindedness on people; eg: I'm being pedantic right now. Were you going for petty, perhaps?)

I think I read somewhere that the writer's reason for it was simply that he didn't like her original character-type. Which smacks to me of laziness and a poor craftsman blaming his tools.

What I could not forgive was how they messed up Heather so horribly just to give Mac a boost. It's like 'oh hay, your dead husband is back on the page, we don't need you to be a good leader anymore LOL, bye.'

Yeah, this, too. 'specially the lolcat speak.

I liked that he (Mantlo) made Heather into Vindicator

As did I!
Just as a note to the original topic of the thread: I don't like his run, but I've never said everything he did was wrong.

Of course I hate what happened to Bochs. That was a travesty. And seriously, did Madison Jeffries kill both his own brother and his best friend but not develop any emotional breakdown from it? I have the issue where the **** hits the fan with Bochs, but not the ones after it. What if Madison is really borderline sociopath?

Interesting theory.
In Byrne's run, he does leave Omega to the authorities because of what they did to Mac, a man 'I admired and respected'. Does that fit with sociopathy? (Possibly, from my limited knowledge.)

"* 'Whatever anybody else did was meaningless', Mantlo told Comics Feature. 'Your job was to come on to a book, and create it out of whole cloth. Marvel history meant nothing, but not because of Marvel history --- just that you were so intent on being better than the past writer, or showing how stupid the past writer was, that you went to great lengths to negate everything he said...Whoever took over was starting all over.' "

That attitude explains a lot. It's a going theory that third sequels in Hollywood are always botched because the suits who've taken over the studios don't want their predecessors to look good - so a series they started has to tank.
This is somebody pretty much stating that theory out loud. He was trying to make John Byrne at the height of his popularity (and, arguably, talent) look bad? Ooh, ooh, rookie mistake!

I think all creators should be trying their best to make their work look good, not themselves.
I see a lot of the excesses of modern storytelling excuse by statements like 'it's artistic', 'it's realistic', or (for movies) 'it feels like a documentary'; my counter is always 'it makes me enjoy the work less'. Y'know?
Have you ever heard anybody walk out of a theatre saying 'Wow, I'm really glad they added that shaky-cam, it enhanced my experience and made it a much better movie'?

~ Le Messor
"I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize."

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I have to admit that I'm not a fan of Alpha Flight#s 29 through 66, although there are bits and pieces that did have promise: Talisman causing the creation of PESTILENCE (no more than that; The Great Beasts had been around a lot longer than Crozier and would not have succumbed to his enthrallment easily, if at all); bringing back Walter in Smart Alec's body (although it is implied that Smart Alec got squashed during the fight soon after), and giving them a headquarters (which got blowed up).

The first year of the Mantlo era provided opportunities to weave Alpha Flight into the Marvel Universe that were...incredible: The Hulk (#29); The X-men, Wolverine and the origin of Lady Deathstrike (#s 33 & 34); the spirit-form of Dr. Strange (# 36); The Avengers (#39), plus The Sub-Mariner! If ever a title had the potential to do great things, Alpha Flight had it. The attitude in the quote from Sean Howe's book probably wouldn't have found expression in the form of a comic book story(line) if it hadn't been approved for publication.

The Mantlo era had the good fortune to have characters who were very popular at the time, but (original) Alpha Flight's treatment was so shabby that whoever had been planned to take their place got compromised in the process.

[Chris]

Is Comics Feature 42 the magazine that introduces and showcases Dave Ross's pencils (before Gerry Talaoc inked them) for Alpha Flight 35? If so, I've been looking to rebuy that magazine for years. BTW, I always preferred Whilce Portacio inking Dave Ross's work. Much cleaner style.

For me, Mantlo's Alpha Flight 29 - 40 felt like the Canadian Avengers. Seemed like the team had great potential again by the end of 40. When Mantlo started introducing young mutants like Purple Girl and Manikin and Goblyn, I felt like Mantlo was trying to write a Canadian X-Men/New Mutants book instead. It's like he couldn't decide what the team was about.