Brevoort (briefly) on AF

[Phil]

http://brevoortformspring.tumblr.com...e-of-the-us-to

Any chance for superhero groups outside of the US to get more recognition? Alpha Flight is rad and I will always, always have a super soft spot for the Marvel UK heroes. Motormouth! Union Jack! Captain Britain! I would love to see a new ongoing Alpha Flight and Excalibur book, preferably ones that stick around for longer than a year. =P I think branching out beyond the US would be really cool and help paint a broader picture of the Marvel Universe, like what's being done with Guardians and Nova.


The problem we’ve always had in doing this is the problem that you touch on when you say “ones that stick around for longer than a year”—and that is that there seems to be only limited interest in those characters and those books, not enough to make them successful longer term.

And note; that's his personal blog rather than an official Marvel statement.

[EccentricSage]

The original AF and Excalibur were around for a long time. I don't know what Brevoort is talking about.

Maybe they should try, you know, giving the books a fair shot? Try letting them be their own thing instead of forcing the same formula that keeps failing? The last AF maxi had some good moments, but it sounded to me like editorial interfered more than helped. You want to suddenly give an old character a completely unrecognizable personality? Go for it! But first, conspiracy! Intrigue! Guns! Event tie in! No, you can not have Madison Jeffries so he can actually do awesome stuff again, he's more than busy talking to his coffee maker in the x-verse! Oh, and don't bother resolving the issue with Heather, that ongoing we announced is suddenly canceled. Hope you weren't expecting to deal with that later!

I don't even really care if they bring back Excalibur. I never liked Captain Britain, I have no clue what has become of Meggan, and Nightcrawler is dead. Wolfsbain needs time to just raise her kid, and I doubt they'd write any happy stories about that in today's Marvel. Mora is also dead. Pete what was his name... Wisdom?... is alive last I heard, and is only enjoyable when playing off likable characters, otherwise he's insufferable. I don't know. If you build a cast of all new characters, though, may as well at least make it a spin off rather than an 'in name only' book. Those don't go over well with the fanbase.

[Phil]

The original AF and Excalibur were around for a long time. I don't know what Brevoort is talking about.

Recent years and reboots, of which both series' have had 3.

Maybe they should try, you know, giving the books a fair shot?

They have though, at least 3 times and each time sales get worse.

Try letting them be their own thing instead of forcing the same formula that keeps failing?

See, this is the issue; you're saying do something new and different (which each subsequent Vol of AF has been), yet other fans are saying go back to the old Byrne formula. How can Marvel win?

but it sounded to me like editorial interfered more than helped. You want to suddenly give an old character a completely unrecognizable personality? Go for it!

How so? Which character do you mean?

Event tie in!

FVL has gone on record saying that he & Greg chose to make it a tie-in.

No, you can not have Madison Jeffries so he can actually do awesome stuff again, he's more than busy talking to his coffee maker in the x-verse!

That's a fair point.

Oh, and don't bother resolving the issue with Heather, that ongoing we announced is suddenly canceled. Hope you weren't expecting to deal with that later!

Cancelled (or re-reduced) due to lack of sales due to fans lack of interest. And let's face it, the world hasn't really given a damn about Heather since.

I don't even really care if they bring back Excalibur.

As there are most likely Excalibur fans who don't care about AF or Madison Jeffries or Wildchild...

Wolfsbain needs time to just raise her kid, and I doubt they'd write any happy stories about that in today's Marvel.

You might want to avoid reading the latest X-Factor arc...

If you build a cast of all new characters, though, may as well at least make it a spin off rather than an 'in name only' book. Those don't go over well with the fanbase.

Which goes against your 'letting them be their own thing' comment, surely?

[EccentricSage]

Recent years and reboots, of which both series' have had 3.


They have though, at least 3 times and each time sales get worse.

Because with each poorly handled or in name only reboot, the team looses fans and becomes more of a joke in the minds of the rest of the market. I thought the last one had potential but I didn't understand some of their decisions. Making it this over the top fascist mind control machine thing because clearly fascism caused by greed and by fear it's self would have been too subtle, not letting the book have Madison even though he could have been used to great effect, and could have had some pretty interesting dynamics with the others after the **** he's done and things he's been through... The Heather Hudson problem being left hanging. And the world was saved by the dumb luck of Master creeping on Heather's kid at just the right moment in the last few pages instead of being saved by AF? What. The. ****. Kind of makes AF trying to fight the Master rather pointless. It was such a poorly plotted anti-climatic ending, unless you count nobody being able to save the capital from being largely destroyed as the climax... which doesn't make AF look very competent, does it?

See, this is the issue; you're saying do something new and different (which each subsequent Vol of AF has been), yet other fans are saying go back to the old Byrne formula. How can Marvel win?

I don't think I said 'do something new and different'. I said just let AF be AF. Lets have a character driven story. Lets have a couple interesting sub-plots intermingled with an over arching plot that keeps things from becoming aimless. I just want a good read with decent art. (art was good last go *thumbs up*) I really think they're over thinking this thing instead of just looking for a good story and letting the interest in the characters/team come from that.

How so? Which character do you mean?

Marina. God damn was she annoying and just out of no where. I'd rather her have not been in the book at all than just there because she was a member of an early line up. If the writer doesn't like Marina he just shouldn't bother with her instead of completely changing what she's all about. I never got a hold of all the issues (some of them. Haven't looked at them since I read them, tbh), can you tell me what she even contributed to the team aside from cheesy 'too edgy 4 u' snark?

FVL has gone on record saying that he & Greg chose to make it a tie-in.

ok, But in that case I don't see why resorting to the lame mind controlled minions schtick was necessary. Blech.

Cancelled (or re-reduced) due to lack of sales due to fans lack of interest. And let's face it, the world hasn't really given a damn about Heather since.

That doesn't really excuse how terrible the last issue was, or leaving that hanging. Because, you know, AF's collective continuity isn't confounding enough. If writers didn't want to touch the book before they sure as hell aren't going to want to deal with Heather being missing, a murderer, and still brainwashed years after that book ended. Or they'll just ignore it if they do, which will prompt us to take issue with the way the title is being handled, and in turn offer less support. A vicious cycle that could and should be avoided by editorial staff if you ask me.

As there are most likely Excalibur fans who don't care about AF or Madison Jeffries or Wildchild...

Well that comes off rather pissy. I wasn't saying that they SHOULDN'T relaunch Excalibur, nor did I say that I didn't care about any of the characters attached to it's history. I wasn't being dismissive, I was saying all the characters relevant to my interest are ether dead or otherwise occupied so I am indifferent towards what they do with the name Excalibur or the character Captain Britain. So... what was your point?

You might want to avoid reading the latest X-Factor arc...

Still haven't gotten back to reading after hitting a missing issue in the Marvel 'Unlimited' database. Unlimited, my ass. -_- $50 for a year, but so far I keep running into incomplete collections when I want to get caught up on anything. I have really bad luck with my choice in Marvel titles or something.

Which goes against your 'letting them be their own thing' comment, surely?

How? 'Them' meaning at least some of the characters who've been known as AF. 'Alpha Flight' is at the very least a very specific concept, which I liked. And there are characters who are still identified as AF in promos even without a title, if recent memory serves me? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet, but call any other flower a rose and I'll call you confused. By 'be their own thing' I mean let AF be AF. The Flight program and it's history is pretty neat, as are the characters old and new that are conveniently shuffled in and out through the tiered flights. Northstar too busy with X-Men stuff or the whole being married thing? Some lower tier character gets a promotion! This also creates a lot of interesting opportunity for work-place rivalry and politics that you wouldn't see in other team books. This was a JOB, a career, or even a desperate only option for some special cases. That is more real and relateable than all this 'we fight for (insert noble cause here)' bs that doesn't really put food on the table in the real world. The social dynamics are so different from other team books when you have heroes competing with each other for top tier, being bitter about being passed over or fearful of being 'let go', etc. That was what really made AF it's own thing, IMO. I always wish they went into that aspect more actually.

[Le Messor]

Because with each poorly handled or in name only reboot, the team looses fans and becomes more of a joke in the minds of the rest of the market. I thought the last one had potential but I didn't understand some of their decisions. Making it this over the top fascist mind control machine thing because clearly fascism caused by greed and by fear it's self would have been too subtle, not letting the book have Madison even though he could have been used to great effect, and could have had some pretty interesting dynamics with the others after the **** he's done and things he's been through... The Heather Hudson problem being left hanging. And the world was saved by the dumb luck of Master creeping on Heather's kid at just the right moment in the last few pages instead of being saved by AF? What. The. ****. Kind of makes AF trying to fight the Master rather pointless. It was such a poorly plotted anti-climatic ending, unless you count nobody being able to save the capital from being largely destroyed as the climax... which doesn't make AF look very competent, does it?

I really agree with all this, ES.

~ Le Messor
Customer: Look, there's no other way to say this, but I didn't come in here to be insulted.
Bernard: Well, I didn't ask for the job of insulting you. In another life, we could have been brothers. Running a small, quirky taveria in Sicily. Maybe we would have married the local twins instead of wasting each other's time here in this dump. But it was not to be. So hop it.

[Mokole]

Well, to disagree: She-Hulk sold horribly and has had what, 4 reboots, 5? Spider-Girl got 3 reboots, 4 if you expand out of the original version, and a longer run on often very low sales, especially relative to the market. THey got chances because those in power with Marvel backed them up, and gave them a lot of time and chances to succeed even if fans, especially with She-Hulk, turned a blind eye. To whit: You can't even get She-Hulk graphic novels through the library system here (But AF and EXcalibur, sure).

[Phil]

Yet the She-Hulk reboots (as many as AF has had so there's no bias) still sold better than Vol's 3&4...

[Flightpath07]

http://brevoortformspring.tumblr.com...e-of-the-us-to



And note; that's his personal blog rather than an official Marvel statement.

Um?

Phil, as a Marvel employee, he ALWAYS represents Marvel when he speaks.

[Phil]

I totally disagree on that.
It may reflect on Marvel but it doesn't represent them.
It's not an official press release or statement; his views are his own, done in his own un-paid time in an unofficial capacity.

[Flightpath07]

In my job, you can be (and people have been) fired over comments made on your own private FaceBook accounts, as well as over things you do in your own home. Many companies now monitor employees FaceBook accounts. The reason? If you are known to be part of a company or business, what you do or say reflects on that company or business. Which is what you said. But I see little difference between "reflecting" and "representing". When you sign on with an employer, you become an Ambassador for them, and you become known as such to their patrons, so how patrons think of you can heavily affect how they think of the business you work for. Note that I never actually said that his views are anything but his own, only that they are SEEN as others that way; and should be (and, I am sure, are) seen that way, as well, by his employer.

Think of it this way; what percentage of the people that visit his blog (or read it, or sign up and join it) are there because they know him from Marvel Comics? (If you're not guessing at least 95%, you're not doing it right)

[Phil]

In my job, you can be (and people have been) fired over comments made on your own private FaceBook accounts, as well as over things you do in your own home.

Exactly.

He can't legally be fired for anything that represents Marvel because that means Marvel have instructed him to say it.

When you sign on with an employer, you become an Ambassador for them, and you become known as such to their patrons, so how patrons think of you can heavily affect how they think of the business you work for.

By that logic if your boss is a racist or a homophobe then you are too?

By that logic every post you've ever made here represents your company and every political conversation you've ever had out of work does too.

Note that I never actually said that his views are anything but his own, only that they are SEEN as others that way

Then surely the blame lies with the people SEEing it that way?

and should be (and, I am sure, are) seen that way, as well, by his employer.

Only if it affects the business.

Think of it this way; what percentage of the people that visit his blog (or read it, or sign up and join it) are there because they know him from Marvel Comics? (If you're not guessing at least 95%, you're not doing it right)

But Marvel can turn round and say it was unsanctioned and,as you've pointed out, sack him for it implying that it has no relevance or legal baring.

[Mokole]

Having worked in the media there is no doubt: what you say on your own time is always taken by the bosses as you speaking for the company, always. I know guys in publishing who've said things on social websites about the product that the bosses didn't like, and they got in trouble, one got fired. You work for them, so if Brevoort is talking about a Marvel property on his own time he darn well knows he's selling the product and pushing his bosses' line. If they disagree they'd let us know. I can even cite reporters in news media who got in trouble for saying things, on their own time, unpaid, that the bosses thought went against their personal wishes, one got fired (in Canada, no less).

It's the main reason you only hear the truth after a guy quits or switches companies. Then they'll tell you how things REALLY happened and what the bosses really wanted. Think Kolins and Seagle, for two.

[Phil]

Having worked in the media there is no doubt

Unless you're claiming to have worked for every single company ever founded there is always doubt.

what you say on your own time is always taken by the bosses as you speaking for the company, always.

There are court cases that say otherwise.

I know guys in publishing who've said things on social websites about the product that the bosses didn't like, and they got in trouble, one got fired.

Because the views were reflecting on them rather than representing them; if it were the latter they'd have no grounds for dismissal.

I can even cite reporters in news media who got in trouble for saying things, on their own time, unpaid, that the bosses thought went against their personal wishes, one got fired (in Canada, no less).

Exactly; see previous.
If anything Brevoort said here brought Marvel into disrepute he'd be sacked. Ergo; reflection not representation.

[Flightpath07]

Just let me point this out:

The problem we’ve always had in doing this

It may be his own personal opinion, BUT by saying "We've" he is now saying that he is speaking for everybody at his workplace.

[Phil]

Everybody, yes.
The company, no.

That just means he's being arrogant and presumptuous in speaking on people's behalf when he has no right to.
Still his opinion. Not fact, not canon.