Article: An Alpha Hint Of Sorts...?

[Le Messor]

How many successful new characters/teams have Marvel had since Deadpool back in the early 90's?
Runaways is pretty much it. Young Avengers to an extent, but they're not exactly original creations.

Which goes back to my earlier comment about flooding the market with comics about the same handful of characters; it doesn't help give the boutique characters a chance.
Which goes back to your earlier comment about publishing the tried-and-true 'these characters will put food on my table' vs. new ones that take a risk.

~ Le Messor
"The manner of giving is worth more than the gift."
~ Pierre Corneille

[Le Messor]

But this is the issue; if the 10 of us that are active on this forum all want something different out of AF then how the hell are Marvel supposed to write a title for over 100,000 to buy? They're destined to fail.

That's why they need to recapture the magic of the Byrne era. If they got that, all ten of us would buy it, right?
And that's enough to sustain a series. Right? Right, guys?

... Guys?

[Flightpath07]

[QUOTE] How many successful new characters/teams have Marvel had since Deadpool back in the early 90's?
Runaways is pretty much it. Young Avengers to an extent, but they're not exactly original creations. [\QUOTE]

Which is why I so enjoy the smaller comics companies; they take risks, because they will fail if they don't.

I'm not dissing Marvel per se, just agreeing with you, Phil; they do what they have to in order to put food on their table.

Which, in so many ways, means the same tired-old stuff, with no likelihood of any risk-taking or newness of thought until their share of the market crashes.

[Legerd]

I think poisoning is slightly extreme as that implies it was done on purpose and no company wants their money making products to fail intentionally.
I do agree that there was a lot of bad judgement made when trying to find a unique selling point/voice for the team, but that's easy with hindsight.

While I don't think Marvel writers were writing AF with the thought "Bwa ha ha, this story will surely ruin the team forever more!" I do think that some of them didn't like the characters, or at least didn't care for them, and chose to write them badly as a joke. By "poisoning the waters" I just mean that whether they meant to or not, over the last thirty plus years the writers have turned many readers off AF with such poor portrayals of the characters. And it's not the company doing it (yes I use the name Marvel, but that's just because I don't/can't list every individual I'm referring to) it is individuals at the company who may not be considering the impact of what they have written. I mean, honestly, do you really think Bendis was worrying about if his story in Avengers #16 was going to impact badly on Marvel's bottom line when he wrote it, or went on to make up phrases like "Alpha Flighted"? Of course not, but he has had a negative impact on readers and what they read. People like me stopped buying Marvel comics. People who were new to AF saw them as a joke and won't go out of their way to buy a book with them in it. Writing like that had nothing to do with finding a voice or a unique selling point for the team, it was Bendis making a bad joke without thought for its consequences. Or worse, he did it with the intention of pissing off AF fans, 'cause what are we going to do other than scream ineffectually online?

But this is the issue; if the 10 of us that are active on this forum all want something different out of AF then how the hell are Marvel supposed to write a title for over 100,000 to buy? They're destined to fail.

Short of just republishing the Byrne stuff they cant win. And judging by TPB sales, not even that is relevant anymore.

I don't think Marvel has to do anything overly strenuous to sell AF, as I've always contended they just have to write the team well. If they present them for a couple of years as competent heroes then readers will accept them as such. Continue to write them as jokes and of course no reader will give a damn about them.
And while you're right that Marvel will of course make more money publishing the "tried and true" titles over the risky ones, they are also moving in ever tightening circles with the former. How long before too many people are sick of the same stories being retold using the same few characters and stop buying? What will Marvel do to bring new readers in then? If the company doesn't broaden the choices they offer their audience then readers are going to leave/not return.

[Le Messor]

About a week ago, a new restaurant opened up in town (my town, about a block from my workplace).
They gave food poisoning to roughly 140 customers - nearly everyone who ate there. Salmonella from bad mayonnaise.

My point?
'Poisoning' doesn't have to be deliberate, let alone a business decision.

~ Le Messor
"Just to the south of them, the new Socket was like a titanic concrete bunker, the new elevator cable rising out of it like an elevator cable ..."
~ Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars

[Phil]

I mean, honestly, do you really think Bendis was worrying about if his story in Avengers #16 was going to impact badly on Marvel's bottom line when he wrote it, or went on to make up phrases like "Alpha Flighted"? Of course not, but he has had a negative impact on readers and what they read. People like me stopped buying Marvel comics. People who were new to AF saw them as a joke and won't go out of their way to buy a book with them in it.

It was actually the opposite; people saw AF as a joke after Vol.3 and it was Bendis killing them that brought them back in the public eye and had long-term X-fans who hadn't touched Vol.3 rekindling their love for the team and expressing anger at the team being killed off which helped contribute to the decent sales that Omega Flight had.

[Phil]

If they present them for a couple of years as competent heroes then readers will accept them as such.

But how can they be expected to do that for free? No writer is going to spend a couple of years working on a book for no payment just in the hope that the team will gain fans/respect down the line.

[Flightpath07]

But how can they be expected to do that for free? No writer is going to spend a couple of years working on a book for no payment just in the hope that the team will gain fans/respect down the line.

I'm pretty sure that Legerd meant "in other comics", as in, doing so for a few years to drive up interest and then give them a series.

Which is what we all hope that appearances by Northstar and Puck in regular Marvel titles will accomplish. I'm doubtful (very!), but hopeful.

[Phil]

But in that case; when was the last 'joke' appearance?

[Le Messor]

It was actually the opposite; people saw AF as a joke after Vol.3 and it was Bendis killing them that brought them back in the public eye and had long-term X-fans who hadn't touched Vol.3 rekindling their love for the team and expressing anger at the team being killed off which helped contribute to the decent sales that Omega Flight had.

Bringing goodness out of tragedy. You're right, things like that can be turned to the light side.

But in that case; when was the last 'joke' appearance?

'Joke', as in, treat them as not serious? Probably that issue of Wolverine and the X-Men, where Walter and Puck applied to be a teacher at Wolvie's school.
But that issue treated bunches of people that way, including characters like Ghost Rider, iirc.

'Joke' as in, completely useless? I don't remember them doing anything in those Hulk Mayan issues. Wasn't that their last appearance as a team?
An expy of the team did even less in Avengers #10. Not really our team, but if they weren't clearly meant to be a version of them, why are we talking about them so much?

~ Le Messor
"Justice: A decision in your favor."

[Flightpath07]

people saw AF as a joke after Vol.3

Phil, I thought only people on this website even knew Volume 3 existed!

[Flightpath07]

But in that case; when was the last 'joke' appearance?

Well, off the top of my head...("just a little off the top, please!")

Omega Flight mini-series - Not really Alpha Flight, Americans forced onto team because apparently Canada has no superheroes of their own?

Volume 4: Puck goes crazy? Really? I understand WHY (the reasoning; he was in hell) they did this, but it made his a joke appearance to me, very insulting. Also, what was the point in getting rid of Heather, if there is no follow up? Why do it, even?

Mayan Hulk stuff: Nothing more than cannon fodder.

And Puck's appearances in X-Force I find to be lame and contrived, with them pulling out ONE ASPECT of Puck's character (he was a bar bouncer) and using that to seemingly give him an all-new personality. To me, that isn't treating the character with respect.

I could probably think of more, but I need to get ready for work. Blech. I'd rather talk Alpha.

[Le Messor]

Work. Man, I know what that's like.

[Phil]

I don't remember them doing anything in those Hulk Mayan issues. Wasn't that their last appearance as a team?

See, I don't get the hate for those issues;
1)It was a guest appearance, so they were never going to be the focus of the issue.
2)They had lots of panel and speech time in the first part.
3)They weren't the only people to be taken out; the She-Hulks were too, so it wasn't an insult/AF are useless moment.
4)Shaman saved the day in the last issue.

For me it was an all-round decent appearance arc-wise.

[Phil]

Omega Flight mini-series - Not really Alpha Flight, Americans forced onto team because apparently Canada has no superheroes of their own?

If it wasn't really Alpha Flight, then surely that wasn't making a joke of Alpha Flight? Had they put the Americans on 'Alpha' then that would have been more insulting, but still not a joke.

Volume 4: Puck goes crazy? Really? I understand WHY (the reasoning; he was in hell) they did this

That answers your own question, surely?

but it made his a joke appearance to me, very insulting.

Again, swings and roundabouts, I felt it made sense and added a light tone where it was needed; plus Puck has always been a joker.

Also, what was the point in getting rid of Heather, if there is no follow up? Why do it, even?

It wasn't made a joke of though; it was very serious. And I'm sure they'd have followed up on it had sales warranted it; there are always going to be threads dangling from a cancelled series.

Mayan Hulk stuff: Nothing more than cannon fodder.

See my previous post.

And Puck's appearances in X-Force I find to be lame and contrived, with them pulling out ONE ASPECT of Puck's character (he was a bar bouncer) and using that to seemingly give him an all-new personality. To me, that isn't treating the character with respect.

I don't see how this is a new personality though. And all of it has shown Puck as a formidable fighter and character.

But all my opinion and I see why you and others don't like the appearances. I'm not saying they're great and will get a new series for us, I just don't see them as a laughing stock.