New Alpha Flight ongoing - "We'll do it again"

[Flightpath07]

I think if you did nothing but that, it would be a train wreck; but if it was a side-thing that kept happening almost in the background of an ongoing, it could still work.

Totally agree.

Also, i feel that the more that these "plot holes" and other issues are ignored, the longer we have a series that too many people don't wanna touch, simply because it is such a mess. Caused, I might add, by writers who either (a) forced their own decisions upon characters that didn't mesh with how they were previously written, or (b) see A, and add in that they haven't actually READ Alpha Flight before writing them.

[Flightpath07]

Sorry about my attitude earlier, guys.

TOTALLY forgivable. Besides which, you've got such a cute typeface, its hard to stay mad at you. :P

[Phil]

Wasn't it you who pointed out to me in another thread that the reason Alpha weren't searching for Madison was because their memories had been wiped of him or something to that effect?

When it happened, yes, but after they regained their memories, plus the new recruits knew, so there was time post-Vol.2/pre-Weapon X to search for him.

I think X Club has some cool characters who are well written, but that does not change that I hate what has been done with Madison. He loses his wife, she dies right in front of him right after they reconciled... and in X-Club they make a big joke of him wanting to bone robots and pass that off as character development?! **** that! I want very much to see him care about someone again and empower himself, act on his own will again. I don't see how it's important to keep in in the X-titles when they treat him like a non entity. Let them build their tech by hand. Restore his history with the people who cared about him.

To be fair, the robot-love was implied before the X-Club series, but thats by-the-by.
To me, it kinda makes sense; he's always had an affinity with machines - that's his powerset. Having been betrayed by the people he loved, abused and brainwashed and then to see Lil killed I can understand why he'd be emotionally vulnerable and detached from humanity. I can see why he'd rather love a machine than a living(and thus dying) human being.
He's been treated with more respect in the X-titles than he was in AF Volume 2 and 3...

And why should he restore his history?
Are your best friends the people you met first?
Do you keep in contact with every single person you've ever met in life?
People move on, people change, people form new friendships, relationships and alliances.
I'd rather him be used well in X-titles than used badly in AF, or not used at all.

And again, all my opinions.
I respect you feel differently.

Or hell, Madison could even go rogue out of a sense of abandonment, become somewhat vilainous, before being redeamed. Anything that would explore his PTSD and show him dealing with the horror of what he did in Weapon X and all his loss in his life. It could make for a great story.

See, I'd hate that.
I'd rather never see him again then become a villain.

Marvel has plenty of guys with mech suits, but nothing like Madison's potential uses of Box, which could be improved upon, with so many geniuses around. It's blatantly wasteful for him to be that sad jobber tinkering alone in a corner all the damn time.

But why does it have to be done in the pages of an AF title?
If Madison is such a great character then why not put him where more people can read him?
Does it matter where he's written if he's written well?

New Marina isn't a help, this isn't 'character development', it's a complete 360 out of nowhere, just because the writer didn't like Marina. If he didn't know what to do with her, why bring her back?

If I'd been killed twice by my husband(/wife in my case) I'd be pretty annoyed and probably change my character violently as a defense mechanism to stop it happening again...

Her 'so edgy' dialogue was so flat and cliche. They traded one one-dimensional characterization of her for another, which accomplishes nothing but further convolution of her continuity which in true Alpha form, from what I understand, was already rather convoluted.

There I agree with you, although I did like Dale's designs.

I am at a loss as to what a writer could even do with her now.

I'd like to see her in a teen book ala Avengers Academy.

BTW, I didn't buy that ridiculous Hell story, only heard about it... WHY was Puck in Hell? WTF did I miss?

He died, he didn't go to heaven.
He's always had a dubious past that he's been ashamed of and Raazer tipped the scales. It's not completely as ridiculous as it sounds.

As much as I'd like to see Northstar more, realistically, I'd like to see the guy get to settle down with his husband, and see scenes here and there of *gasp* characters being normal people and doing civilian type things!

Astonishing X-Men's been doing a pretty good job of conveying his civilian life/hero life balance, so far, IMO.

As inconsistent as the writing quality got toward the end of V1

I'd say the end was more consistent than the middle!

You know, it was the editor from the creative team that brought him to X-Factor, who was responsible for the more serious portrayal and tying up of some loose ends when he exited in #142. She'd been off the book when things went down hill, and her name was back in the credits for #142 rather than that idiot who said Wildchild is 16.

Bill Rosemann's definitely male

We didn't get any look at how Wildchild feels, what drives him, nothing. IMO, given his past, he should be a rather sympathetic villain.

It's not a Wildchild solo series though; there wasn't room for 22 pages of Wild Child discussing his feelings...

He didn't choose this path, and he has suffered horribly.

I don't feel he has; his Romulus persona is a lot closer to Byrne's elegant Omega Flight villain than him being Wildheart is.
I prefer him as a villain.
Again, that's just me.

I really hate the entire Lupine/Romulus thing and just want it to be over already so that these characters can be cut loose.

I agree on the Lupine thing, and it's already being retconned away.

And when that time comes, I'd be fine with Wildchild as an Alpha Flight villain IF his involvement makes sense, and isn't just him being canon fodder in someone else's villainous plot. He has a lot of history, and I want to see his story and his point of view for once. I would love to see him redeemed by Alpha, eventually, though.

I agree, apart from the redeemed part.

They probably had no clue what had become of him, no way of finding him, and they were in the midst of getting royally ****ed over themselves, so I could see them not having bad blood with him, though he might feel as though he was abandoned by them at first.

As you go on to say, Sasquatch knew, so there really was no excuse.

I think if you did nothing but that, it would be a train wreck; but if it was a side-thing that kept happening almost in the background of an ongoing, it could still work.

Oh yeah, there's definitely room for it, especially if done in a sly nod to old school readers,

I just think that shoe-horning lots of elements in, just to try and please everyone isn't the way to go. One of the areas Volume 4 worked in was just ignoring elements of continuity. Not contradicting them, just not referencing them. Yet also Volume 4 had a nod to Snowbird's death which worked.
We don't need to mention Raazer in every issue, for example (or y'know, ever again).
That doesn't mean it didn't happen(unfortunately), just that it's not essential.

[Phil]

I echo Phil

I also agree with Phil

It's infectious!!!

[Flightpath07]

It's infectious!!!

Your rakish charms are wearing off on me.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

"Madison isn't essential to the team"

So what? If you ask me, this is a kind of snobbery in the AF fandom that doesn't help. Team line ups in other more consistently successful books get shaken up all the time, and the fans don't automatically 'quit' because one character they're less familiar with 'confuses them'. There is no 'essential team'....

[I meant (and probably should've added) that with 9-to-10 main Alpha Flight characters*, Madison's inclusion right away isn't essential. I can't speak to whether Madison has been written well recently, but I do agree that he has incredible potential...either in an Alpha Flight series or elsewhere. G/A-F]

I agree about Heather needing to be top priority right now. As for 70 issues of continuity, I'm saying retcon some of the wrinkles out along the way, not dwell on every hickup in their continuity in every issue. I really can not enjoy books with unaddressed continuity issues, I can't suspend my disbelief, it's a deal breaker for me. But when a writer fixes something we hated in the process of telling a story, said writer gains a new fan, for sure.

At least the brainwashing in the Omega Flight story arc from V1 made some semblance of sense. [I was really referring to the brain-washing from volume 2, which was way too easy (IMO) and far too often. Assuming Judd still has an influencer, what makes Heather so susceptible? I don't think she was ever given one. And once they (finally) remembered what their own government did to them, Judd & Heather are two people who probably wouldn't just let it slide without consequences and repercussions] Courtney didn't just magically make them do her/his/it's bidding like so many villains later on did, nor cause their personality to change completely. [I agree, wholeheartedly] Courtney exploited mentally and emotionally fragile heroes in training during their time of need, and then simply enhanced that reaction they had to being thrown out of the Flight program. Each character was still themselves, but would they have still turned to villainy without the extra push from the behavior modifying technology? We'll never know, and that grey area made Omega Flight more compelling .... But man, how many characters from AF have been brainwashed/mind controlled, in many cases more than once, now? I just think that kind of has to be addressed if Heather's going to be saved from what Master did to her. [no disagreement, there]

...

* If a dramatic, plausible story showing Mac, Heather, Aurora, Northstar, Marrina, Puck, Sasquatch, Shaman, Snowbird, and Talisman as Canada's champions isn't possible, something is seriously wrong.

[Phil]

that with 9-to-10 main Alpha Flight characters*, Madison's inclusion right away isn't essential.

That's exactly it.

I'd say that 9-10 is too many, 7 or 8 is probably spot on.
Guardian & Vindicator, Shaman & Snowbird, Northstar & Aurora, Sasquatch & Puck. If we lose Heather insert Marinna. If we've lost Northstar too... I'd probably leave it at 7, personally.

If we lost Sasquatch, then I'd have Madison. (Well, I'd probably have Wyre, but I know that I'm the only one in the world, probably)
If we lost Shaman or Snowbird then I'd have Talisman or Earthmover.

Without his powers I'd probably have Windshear as Government liason.

[Sypes]

That's exactly it.

I'd say that 9-10 is too many, 7 or 8 is probably spot on.
Guardian & Vindicator, Shaman & Snowbird, Northstar & Aurora, Sasquatch & Puck. If we lose Heather insert Marinna. If we've lost Northstar too... I'd probably leave it at 7, personally.

If we lost Sasquatch, then I'd have Madison. (Well, I'd probably have Wyre, but I know that I'm the only one in the world, probably)
If we lost Shaman or Snowbird then I'd have Talisman or Earthmover.

Without his powers I'd probably have Windshear as Government liason.

I like your lineups, Phil! I'd also love to see another team à la Young Avengers / Young Justice of new recruits being trained to take over, if needs be one day. Every business / government usually have back up members for business continuity or emergency plans. Perhaps Pathway, Goblyn, Witchfire, Flex, Radius, Ghost Girl and any other new members?

[EccentricSage]

When it happened, yes, but after they regained their memories, plus the new recruits knew, so there was time post-Vol.2/pre-Weapon X to search for him.

Ah, so they do have their memories back. I just have a few bargain bin issues of v2 and v3, since I had sworn off Marvel for so long, so needless to say I'm confused as hell about the continuity at that point in time. How soon after they regained their memories did they get killed off? What was going on with them during that period of time? See, my problem with just leaving it alone is that it makes the whole Alpha Flight team look like tremendous *******s.

To be fair, the robot-love was implied before the X-Club series, but thats by-the-by.
To me, it kinda makes sense; he's always had an affinity with machines - that's his powerset. Having been betrayed by the people he loved, abused and brainwashed and then to see Lil killed I can understand why he'd be emotionally vulnerable and detached from humanity. I can see why he'd rather love a machine than a living(and thus dying) human being.
He's been treated with more respect in the X-titles than he was in AF Volume 2 and 3...

But he wasn't betrayed so much, as people's minds were wiped, crisis was unfolding, etc. I really can't accept all of AF being tremendous douche bags who just didn't care about a guy who used to be like family to them. If that's canon, how can I like these people anymore? I may as well never read another AF title again, if the team is to be held responsible for decisions of Marvel's staff.

Well, Madison was at his best in AF v1, and treated with the most respect in AF v1. Comparing the x-books to AF 2&3 is kind of moot, doesn't seem like very many were treated with respect after v.1. I don't see how it's less ****ed up that he's flirting with a robot so soon after Lil's death. I'd be fine with him being interested in a relationship with an android (Insert Siri joke, here.) if they dealt with his feelings about his wife first, and weren't making him look like a damn pathetic fool in the process of exploring his 'affinity' in a new light.

And why should he restore his history?
Are your best friends the people you met first?
Do you keep in contact with every single person you've ever met in life?
People move on, people change, people form new friendships, relationships and alliances.
I'd rather him be used well in X-titles than used badly in AF, or not used at all.

And again, all my opinions.
I respect you feel differently.

AF weren't the people he first met, but they are people who took him in, lived with him, fought along side him, during the best years of his life. You don't forget family, and you don't let those kinds of feelings go. No, if you think you were abandoned by those people, it festers. I'd rather see it addressed and some sort of reunion in the future so that he can really move on, regardless of what 'moving on' would mean.

I agree it would be better for him to be used well elsewhere than used badly in AF, but the reverse can be just as true.

See, I'd hate that.
I'd rather never see him again then become a villain.

Why? Just curious. Me, I just want him explored more deeply, and want to see him acting on his own will instead of jobbing for others. I wouldn't want him to be an irredeemable villain, EVER, mind you. I'm not talking evil. Any character can make a bad decision or come out on the wrong side of history at some point, and still be a good guy in the end.

But why does it have to be done in the pages of an AF title?
If Madison is such a great character then why not put him where more people can read him?
Does it matter where he's written if he's written well?

Doesn't have to be, but I think it would be nice for him to at least reunite with them temporarily. You already know my reasons for that. I also see no reason why he can't have a story with AF. It's not so much the title, as the characters.

If I'd been killed twice by my husband(/wife in my case) I'd be pretty annoyed and probably change my character violently as a defense mechanism to stop it happening again...

But we didn't really get to see the feelings and thoughts that led to this complete 180. She just shows up with a new personality. I'm all for giving her a bit of anger and edge, but this was just ham handed.

There I agree with you, although I did like Dale's designs.

Me too. The art in v4 was great. Hell, there were some cool moments in dialogue and fighting, too, but the over all concept and some character portrayals were bad. I could have been ok with some of the smaller flaws if the book had ended differently, but issue 8 was just laughable, and then no resolution for poor Heather, ether. It seemed to me like the author must be some huge Guardian fanboy because it just felt to me like it was all about making Guardian solo leader, making him the cool guy, making him the better leader by tearing Heather down in the worst way I could imagine... Ugh. It kind of made me hate Guardian more than he could possibly deserve, just out of spite.

I'd like to see her in a teen book ala Avengers Academy.

Wait, married and still a teen all these years later? Namor, you creep! LOL
I don't think I could buy her being a teen no matter how childish her portrayal. XD It's like Wildchild being 16 in X-Factor.

He died, he didn't go to heaven.

Well yeah, I got THAT part. lmao

He's always had a dubious past that he's been ashamed of and Raazer tipped the scales. It's not completely as ridiculous as it sounds.

I'm more bothered that there is a Heaven and Hell now... I mean, I thought Marvel was always a bit more ambivalent about religion than that. Was Eugine particularly religious? I'm pretty sure Wolverine was an atheist, from everything I'd read, and didn't he go to Hell somehow, too? I didn't read the thing, so just seeing the article about it awhile back... are you SURE it's not completely ridiculous?

Astonishing X-Men's been doing a pretty good job of conveying his civilian life/hero life balance, so far, IMO.

That's good to hear. I'll have to pick some up. Just gonna do digital, screw it. I got a look at the wedding issue at a book store but didn't buy it... I do hope they're at least fleshing out Kyle after the wedding... I just found their relationship really hard to take seriously because it was just like 'hey look, a boyfriend! They love each other! They're getting married'. Show me don't tell me, Marvel.

I'd say the end was more consistent than the middle!

That's for damn sure. I meant, in the latter issues, there were some really great moments that I have fond memories of, but then you also have insane BS like the Nemesis' Children of the Night, Ninjas out of ****ing nowhere in Russia, the name 'Wildheart'...

Bill Rosemann's definitely male

Too bad for you I was talking about Kelly Corvese, and too bad for me, turns out that's a dude too. I've never encountered a man named Kelly before. huh. Also too bad for me that I got it wrong about when Corvese was and was not on the book. Now I'm all confused and going back through all my X-Factors. Agh.

It's not a Wildchild solo series though; there wasn't room for 22 pages of Wild Child discussing his feelings...

I never said it should be. You're making a pretty huge assumption there.

It takes one thought bubble in a single panel to give us some insight on what's going on inside Wildchild, providing the writer has the finesse to write in such a way that all characters are delved into and not just the main character. Of course, if Wolverine's inane thoughts in that story were any indication, I should be grateful Loeb didn't bother.

I don't feel he has; his Romulus persona is a lot closer to Byrne's elegant Omega Flight villain than him being Wildheart is.
I prefer him as a villain.
Again, that's just me.

I don't get what you mean. Wildchild has suffered greatly ever since X-Factor chewed him up and spat him out. For that reason, I don't really blame him if he sees Romulus as some sort of savior, I don't blame him for serving him and being loyal to him, when he's the only one who'd done anything good for Wildchild in an awfully long time, and I can only imagine what kind of state he was in after M-Day.

I agree his personality is a lot closer to Byrne's Wildchild now, but what does that mean? We hardly knew Wildchild under Byrne's pen, aside from that he was a cool design, eloquent, and arrogant. Was he 'evil'? We don't know. He was taken advantage of by Delphine Courtney who was using that behavior modifying technology that could exaggerate their emotional reactions, their fears, their hate, their prejudices. I don't hold him any more responsible for his villainy under Byrne than I'd hold Lil.

On the other hand, he was his own person as Weapon Omega, Wild Heart, and X-Factor's Wildchild, and he was a damn lovable guy who I'm pretty sure we can all agree was not 'evil' or villainous. Even in Weapon X, some positive characteristic came through, with his feelings for Aurora. So yeah, I want to see Wildchild have his chance at happyness and love again some day. Poor ****er deserves better than being a henchman the rest of his life.

Also, I noticed a lot of people online HATE Loeb's Wildchild, Wolvy fans were happy when Way killed him off in such a stupid way. Yet he had fans when he was WO/WH in AFv1 and as Wildchild in X-Factor. I don't think Loeb's story has done Wildchild any favors in the popularity department.

I agree on the Lupine thing, and it's already being retconned away.

Can you point me in the direction of the article or interview? I'm excited to hear that, but not having any luck finding further info.

I agree, apart from the redeemed part.

Frankly, I would like to see him chaotic neutral, not evil or good, but acting according to his own feelings and 'morals' which may not be legal or acceptable. He has plenty of reason to be a vengeful bastard who refuses to accept what others want of him, as it did not go well the last time around. But I'd like to see his heart and humanity in that, too, not a kackling sadistic maniac. We already have Sabretooth for that, and one of the biggest criticisms I see of Wildchild as a villain is that he becomes a mini Sabretooth, and I agree with those people.

As you go on to say, Sasquatch knew, so there really was no excuse.

Sas knew Wildchild reverted back to a villain, and nearly ripped his throat out. I think the 'them vs us' mentality was pretty well established before Sas even understood Wildchild's involvement. I meant, back before Wildchild slipped back into villainy, when he started mutating again and then disappeared into the night... I don't think most of Alpha knew about that, save for Aurora knowing about his involvement in WX, and her state of mind until recently is a whole 'nother can of worms. But from WC's point of view, he might wonder why they never tried to save him. From their POV, this Wildchild isn't even the guy they knew and loved, but his repressed bestial personality. I'm just theorizing on how villain Wildchild could be fleshed out a bit more, what could be going on inside him, is all. I'm trying to explain why I don't see his villainy as this black and white issue, and see him as a sympathetic villain.

Oh yeah, there's definitely room for it, especially if done in a sly nod to old school readers,

I just think that shoe-horning lots of elements in, just to try and please everyone isn't the way to go. One of the areas Volume 4 worked in was just ignoring elements of continuity. Not contradicting them, just not referencing them. Yet also Volume 4 had a nod to Snowbird's death which worked.
We don't need to mention Raazer in every issue, for example (or y'know, ever again).
That doesn't mean it didn't happen(unfortunately), just that it's not essential.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. And I'd love to see some of the stupid **** retconned along the way, like how Aurora and Northstar being half-elf was retconned out. If some writer could retcon raazor somehow in the course of a story. Not dwell on it, just try to avoid it until an opportunity to fix it comes up. And some old wounds should be healed, though right now the fresh wound that Heather is sporting is top priority.

[Jason Eberly]

. If that's canon, how can I like these people anymore? I may as well never read another AF title again, if the team is to be held responsible for decisions of Marvel's staff.

It seems to me that this statement is backward. These characters are just puppets that exist and act completely at the whim of Marvel. If a character does something you don't like/agree with/seems out of character, it is solely the fault of the creators.

[/quote] Well, Madison was at his best in AF v1, and treated with the most respect in AF v1. Comparing the x-books to AF 2&3 is kind of moot, doesn't seem like very many were treated with respect after v.1. I don't see how it's less ****ed up that he's flirting with a robot so soon after Lil's death. I'd be fine with him being interested in a relationship with an android (Insert Siri joke, here.) if they dealt with his feelings about his wife first, and weren't making him look like a damn pathetic fool in the process of exploring his 'affinity' in a new light. [/quote]

For the most part, I agree here. It could be as simple as a panel or two talking or thinking about how he's grieved for Lil but its time to move on blah blah blah to a whole story or subplot over his guilt between his attraction to Danger and his missing Lil.

AF weren't the people he first met, but they are people who took him in, lived with him, fought along side him, during the best years of his life. You don't forget family, and you don't let those kinds of feelings go. No, if you think you were abandoned by those people, it festers. I'd rather see it addressed and some sort of reunion in the future so that he can really move on, regardless of what 'moving on' would mean.

I had some very large unresolved issues with my ex-wife and her family back in the mid-90's. However, I resolved it myself by coming to the conclusion of "she made her decision, they made their decision, best just to go our separate ways and hope I never see them again. Not that I'm against it if this story were to happen, merely that issues don't always get resolved neatly. Life moves on and all that crap.

(Re: Marrina) But we didn't really get to see the feelings and thoughts that led to this complete 180. She just shows up with a new personality. I'm all for giving her a bit of anger and edge, but this was just ham handed.

I just assumed (or perhaps used my imagination) that Marrina's new personality is in some way connected to her Plodex heritage. When she came back in the Chaos War one-shot, she was much more savage, and figured by the time of the mini, she had been able to reign in the savagery to an extent.

Me too. The art in v4 was great. Hell, there were some cool moments in dialogue and fighting, too, but the over all concept and some character portrayals were bad. I could have been ok with some of the smaller flaws if the book had ended differently, but issue 8 was just laughable, and then no resolution for poor Heather, ether. It seemed to me like the author must be some huge Guardian fanboy because it just felt to me like it was all about making Guardian solo leader, making him the cool guy, making him the better leader by tearing Heather down in the worst way I could imagine... Ugh.

Perhaps Fred and Greg (the writers) were big Guardian fans, but the implied insult of calling them a "huge Guardian fanboy" is a bit unfair, in my opinion. It doesn't seem all that different to how you want to elevate Madison or Wild Child. We all have characters we like more than others, even writers. It's fine that you don't like how Heather was treated, but her story isn't finished. Some writer (perhaps you or me!) can come along and redeem her and treat Guardian like crap, if we so please.

It kind of made me hate Guardian more than he could possibly deserve, just out of spite.

Again, blame the creators, not the character.

Wait, married and still a teen all these years later? Namor, you creep! LOL
I don't think I could buy her being a teen no matter how childish her portrayal. XD It's like Wildchild being 16 in X-Factor.

The difference between Marrina and Wild Child is that Marrina was killed when she was (approximately by my guess) about 18 and was dead for years (or however long it had been in Marvel's compressed time), so she wouldn't have aged when she was brought back to life. There's really no inconsistency about her age (well, no more inconsistency than a universe where Reed Richards and Ben Grimm fought in WWII but are apparently in the 40's today).

I'm more bothered that there is a Heaven and Hell now... I mean, I thought Marvel was always a bit more ambivalent about religion than that. Was Eugine particularly religious? I'm pretty sure Wolverine was an atheist, from everything I'd read, and didn't he go to Hell somehow, too? I didn't read the thing, so just seeing the article about it awhile back... are you SURE it's not completely ridiculous?

Marvel has long had versions of "Heaven" and "Hell"....especially Hell. The Marvel version (of Hell, at least) tends to be somewhat different than the biblical version, with different demons being in charge of different "sections" of Hell. Mephisto, Hellstorm, Sattanish, etc., etc. all rule over pieces of "Hell". Heaven (and angels and the sort) have have major roles in such titles as the 70's Defenders, Ghost Rider, Hellstorm, Fantastic Four (in this one, Jack Kirby was depicted as God). So no, Puck going to one of the myriad versions of "Hell" is no more absurd than Thor visiting Hel or Hades or Tucson.

That's good to hear. I'll have to pick some up. Just gonna do digital, screw it. I got a look at the wedding issue at a book store but didn't buy it... I do hope they're at least fleshing out Kyle after the wedding... I just found their relationship really hard to take seriously because it was just like 'hey look, a boyfriend! They love each other! They're getting married'. Show me don't tell me, Marvel.

I agree completely with this one.

That's for damn sure. I meant, in the latter issues, there were some really great moments that I have fond memories of, but then you also have insane BS like the Nemesis' Children of the Night, Ninjas out of ****ing nowhere in Russia, the name 'Wildheart'...

For me, the last 20 issues were the worst of the first volume. While I know most people despise the Mantlo-era, and I'll be happy to admit that the inconsistencies were quite glaring and whatnot, at least it felt as if it was headed somewhere (even if you didn't like where it ended up). The final 20 just felt rambling and unfocussed. Just my opinion, of course.

It takes one thought bubble in a single panel to give us some insight on what's going on inside Wildchild, providing the writer has the finesse to write in such a way that all characters are delved into and not just the main character. Of course, if Wolverine's inane thoughts in that story were any indication, I should be grateful Loeb didn't bother.

While I agree that it's nice to get insight into characters (and some characters definitely need their motivations/thoughts defined more than others), there is nothing that says it has to be done in THIS story, right NOW. I haven't read the Romulus storyline, but I'm guessing this is not a story centered on Wild Child, but rather a story that happens to have Wild Child in it. Personally, I think I'd rather wait for someone who actually seems to understand the character to flesh out "where Wild Child is at" than someone like Loeb who just seems to be using the character for his power set.

I don't get what you mean. Wildchild has suffered greatly ever since X-Factor chewed him up and spat him out. For that reason, I don't really blame him if he sees Romulus as some sort of savior, I don't blame him for serving him and being loyal to him, when he's the only one who'd done anything good for Wildchild in an awfully long time, and I can only imagine what kind of state he was in after M-Day.

See, that right there (to me, at least) is a pretty darn good reason for Wild Child's current state of mind. I'm going to go with that until Marvel tells me something different.

I agree his personality is a lot closer to Byrne's Wildchild now, but what does that mean? We hardly knew Wildchild under Byrne's pen, aside from that he was a cool design, eloquent, and arrogant. Was he 'evil'? We don't know. He was taken advantage of by Delphine Courtney who was using that behavior modifying technology that could exaggerate their emotional reactions, their fears, their hate, their prejudices. I don't hold him any more responsible for his villainy under Byrne than I'd hold Lil.

"Evil?" No, I don't think he was ever portrayed as evil. But subsequent appearances in the Hudnall version and Fabian Nicieza versions reinforced the notion that Wild Child is feral and unstable. To me, "Building Blocks" is the last time Wild Child was treated properly as a character, whereas you've chosen your own favorite "restore point" (for want of a better term) of him as a hero.

On the other hand, he was his own person as Weapon Omega, Wild Heart, and X-Factor's Wildchild, and he was a damn lovable guy who I'm pretty sure we can all agree was not 'evil' or villainous.

But I'm sure we won't agree that he was written way out of character from his early established personality.

Even in Weapon X, some positive characteristic came through, with his feelings for Aurora. So yeah, I want to see Wildchild have his chance at happyness and love again some day. Poor ****er deserves better than being a henchman the rest of his life.

I don't know...I see him as one of those characters that life will always crap on. Mental instability, physical deformity, bad luck in relationships...sometimes, that's just the way a character (or person, for that matter) is.

Frankly, I would like to see him chaotic neutral, not evil or good, but acting according to his own feelings and 'morals' which may not be legal or acceptable. He has plenty of reason to be a vengeful bastard who refuses to accept what others want of him, as it did not go well the last time around. But I'd like to see his heart and humanity in that, too, not a kackling sadistic maniac. We already have Sabretooth for that, and one of the biggest criticisms I see of Wildchild as a villain is that he becomes a mini Sabretooth, and I agree with those people.

I like the first part of your thought here. I would like to see Wild Child as a (no pun intended) wild card. In one story he can help the heroes with everything he has to give, the next time he shows up he could be the antagonist. Heck, or even switch mid-story. Not, as you put it, a "cackling sadistic maniac", but what his name implies: an unpredictable, mentally unbalanced, emotionally damaged, instinct driven character.

Sas knew Wildchild reverted back to a villain, and nearly ripped his throat out. I think the 'them vs us' mentality was pretty well established before Sas even understood Wildchild's involvement. I meant, back before Wildchild slipped back into villainy, when he started mutating again and then disappeared into the night... I don't think most of Alpha knew about that, save for Aurora knowing about his involvement in WX, and her state of mind until recently is a whole 'nother can of worms. But from WC's point of view, he might wonder why they never tried to save him. From their POV, this Wildchild isn't even the guy they knew and loved, but his repressed bestial personality. I'm just theorizing on how villain Wildchild could be fleshed out a bit more, what could be going on inside him, is all. I'm trying to explain why I don't see his villainy as this black and white issue, and see him as a sympathetic villain.

Just a personal opinion here, but I'm kind of bored with the "sypmapthetic villain" angle in comics these days. It seems EVERY villain is either the uber-megalomaniac or a sympathetic, tragic character. Whatever happened to the greedy scumbag who just wanted to rob a bank or kidnap some rich kid to ransom him?

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. And I'd love to see some of the stupid **** retconned along the way, like how Aurora and Northstar being half-elf was retconned out. If some writer could retcon raazor somehow in the course of a story. Not dwell on it, just try to avoid it until an opportunity to fix it comes up. And some old wounds should be healed, though right now the fresh wound that Heather is sporting is top priority.

I consider what happened to Northstar and Aurora being half-elven as something I termed a long time ago as a "revcon", or "revealed continuity". To me, a retcon is something that changes established continuity (like Tony Stark now creating the Iron Man armor in Afghanistan rather than Viet Nam) whereas a revcon is something that is revealed to us as not being what it first appeared to be. The story where Northstar and Aurora were "revealed" to be half-elven still exists as it was portrayed; it was just revealed later that they (and us) had been lied to by Loki. A new truth was revealed.

I know that was neither here nor there, just thought I'd put it out there.

Great discussion on all sides!

[EccentricSage]

It seems to me that this statement is backward. These characters are just puppets that exist and act completely at the whim of Marvel. If a character does something you don't like/agree with/seems out of character, it is solely the fault of the creators.

Yes, but the problem is continuity. If there is some acknowledgement of what happened and the characters move on, ok, I can once again suspend my disbelief, and not be all conflicted about how I feel about the continuity and characterization. It is the creative teams' fault, but what they write for the characters becomes the characters' reality, get what I'm saying? It's something that will always bug me.

For the most part, I agree here. It could be as simple as a panel or two talking or thinking about how he's grieved for Lil but its time to move on blah blah blah to a whole story or subplot over his guilt between his attraction to Danger and his missing Lil.

That, and a respectable amount of time passing. It just seems like one writer decides to kill off his wife, and then the next writer just decides he doesn't feel like really addressing that. And I'm tired if Madison just being portrayed as pathetic. It's the same sort of kick him when he's down **** that went on with Wildchild in X-Factor and Weapon X, and what can I say, on top of already liking the character, I'm a sucker for the underdog, and I don't like seeing people suffering without any resolution.

I had some very large unresolved issues with my ex-wife and her family back in the mid-90's. However, I resolved it myself by coming to the conclusion of "she made her decision, they made their decision, best just to go our separate ways and hope I never see them again. Not that I'm against it if this story were to happen, merely that issues don't always get resolved neatly. Life moves on and all that crap.

But I imagine you thought about them, and that some interaction happened, before you gave up and moved on. The issue I have with Madison and Alpha at large not having any contact or thought about each other or what has been lost at all after everything they experienced as a team and close nit friends, practically family... people don't just let go without a reason like that. It seems more like a writing and editorial oversight than even an intended part of their characterization. No one even had any falling out, really, it was all just a twist of fate, victims of circumstance, and seems unnatural.

I just assumed (or perhaps used my imagination) that Marrina's new personality is in some way connected to her Plodex heritage. When she came back in the Chaos War one-shot, she was much more savage, and figured by the time of the mini, she had been able to reign in the savagery to an extent.

I'd be ok with it if it weren't so poorly done, is all. I see nothing of the previous Marina in the new Marina, which just makes her that much less likable for me. I'll be happy if any writer can smooth it out, and make her seem more... real, I guess, less cliche.

Perhaps Fred and Greg (the writers) were big Guardian fans, but the implied insult of calling them a "huge Guardian fanboy" is a bit unfair, in my opinion. It doesn't seem all that different to how you want to elevate Madison or Wild Child. We all have characters we like more than others, even writers. It's fine that you don't like how Heather was treated, but her story isn't finished. Some writer (perhaps you or me!) can come along and redeem her and treat Guardian like crap, if we so please.
Again, blame the creators, not the character.

See, I'm more concerned with Wildchild and Madison because they're some of my favorite characters. That doesn't mean I'd feel the need to craft an entire story, to the detriment of other characters, just to elevate them. If I were to write Alpha Flight, I wouldn't want to **** with Mac out of this weird spite I have for him... I think characters and their fans deserve more respect than that. Hell, if Wyre had to be in a book, and I was the writer, I wouldn't even **** him over, and I hate everything about that character.

And I did say it was a hate that he doesn't necessarily deserve. It's the same sort of thing with me feeling spiteful towards Wolverine because the Marvel Universe too often seems to revolve around him, to the detriment of others. Doesn't mean he's a terrible character or that I really want him to fail, it's just a feeling of dislike, and we all have our feelings.

The difference between Marrina and Wild Child is that Marrina was killed when she was (approximately by my guess) about 18 and was dead for years (or however long it had been in Marvel's compressed time), so she wouldn't have aged when she was brought back to life. There's really no inconsistency about her age (well, no more inconsistency than a universe where Reed Richards and Ben Grimm fought in WWII but are apparently in the 40's today).

I only have some bits and pieces of her time in Alpha, I heard she died twice? Was she really 18 when she married Namor, and how old was he? It still sounds a bit off...

Marvel has long had versions of "Heaven" and "Hell"....especially Hell. The Marvel version (of Hell, at least) tends to be somewhat different than the biblical version, with different demons being in charge of different "sections" of Hell. Mephisto, Hellstorm, Sattanish, etc., etc. all rule over pieces of "Hell". Heaven (and angels and the sort) have have major roles in such titles as the 70's Defenders, Ghost Rider, Hellstorm, Fantastic Four (in this one, Jack Kirby was depicted as God). So no, Puck going to one of the myriad versions of "Hell" is no more absurd than Thor visiting Hel or Hades or Tucson.

I get that all these other realms exist, but I can understand why Norse characters would go to Norse underworlds/afterlife/hel, what have you... They're Norse. When a character goes to Hell, due to dying, without necessarily being religious or anything, it just rubs me the wrong way, I guess. Like, why would they default to ether Heaven or Hell and not a myriad of other afterlife possibilities?

For me, the last 20 issues were the worst of the first volume. While I know most people despise the Mantlo-era, and I'll be happy to admit that the inconsistencies were quite glaring and whatnot, at least it felt as if it was headed somewhere (even if you didn't like where it ended up). The final 20 just felt rambling and unfocussed. Just my opinion, of course.

I agree about the aimlessness, which was probably the book's undoing. There were good moments, but they didn't really hook you in and make you want to know what happens next.

While I agree that it's nice to get insight into characters (and some characters definitely need their motivations/thoughts defined more than others), there is nothing that says it has to be done in THIS story, right NOW. I haven't read the Romulus storyline, but I'm guessing this is not a story centered on Wild Child, but rather a story that happens to have Wild Child in it. Personally, I think I'd rather wait for someone who actually seems to understand the character to flesh out "where Wild Child is at" than someone like Loeb who just seems to be using the character for his power set.

Like I said, I was only looking for some little glimpse, not a story revolving around him. Considering the fact that Wildchild was suddenly overpowered and the mysterious main Villain's right-hand-man, I'd say he was important enough to merit a little insight. lol I think it would add a lot more depth to him facing off with Wolverine. A good hero needs a good villain. Yeah, I'm saying Loeb lacked the finesse, the whole story is nuts, and full of Wolvy waxing philosophical about the creationism completely out of character, making obvious observations, etc. I hope someone decent who gives a **** picks Wildchild up after Loeb's story is finally wrapped up.

See, that right there (to me, at least) is a pretty darn good reason for Wild Child's current state of mind. I'm going to go with that until Marvel tells me something different.

Glad to hear it. Sometimes I wonder if I'm alone in my interpretation of the character. I have to say, I'd love to write for Marvel some day, but I suck at writing! But I always find myself getting drawn into ideas about some of the less used/ill used characters and they grow into these huge concepts inside my head. I'll have the ideas and dialogue, but it's all in visual format in my mind... translating the scenes into text just is not working. So I think I'll have to get good enough and fast enough to do the art myself, too, if I were ever to work in the comics industry... But I'm almost 30 and still not anywhere near where I'd need to be. I have a fan project I want to do just for practice, anyhow, but it is already completely out of alignment with Marvel's continuity, thanks to recent events. Frustrating.

"Evil?" No, I don't think he was ever portrayed as evil. But subsequent appearances in the Hudnall version and Fabian Nicieza versions reinforced the notion that Wild Child is feral and unstable. To me, "Building Blocks" is the last time Wild Child was treated properly as a character, whereas you've chosen your own favorite "restore point" (for want of a better term) of him as a hero.

Wasn't that the Lan the Sorcerer story, and then his bloody rampage afterward? I didn't think it was a very good depiction of the character at all. He just ran around clawing things and saying the word 'slashing' a lot. It read to me like a very dumbed down version of Byrne's Wildchild. And then the writer was done with him, or perhaps the plan to do an off panel cure had already been discussed behind the scenes, so WC just completely looses it and attacks people so that Nemesis has to whisk him away to save him from Wolverine. At least, that's the way I read it. Byrne's WC seemed a lot smarter and more in control. But none the less, it's continuity now.

What would my restore point be? I actually thought the way they went about 'curing' him off panel and making him beautiful to top it off was awful. If I ignore that Weapon Omega was Wildchild, I kind of like the character as his own character, but it just doesn't work that way, or shouldn't, at least. lol I actually prefer Wildchild feral looking and a bit wicked (Fan art: http://eccentricsage.deviantart.com/#/d4ub8ch ), but the good side of him that was established is part of his continuity also, and shouldn't be ignored, IMO. For me, the perfect Wildchild would be something closer to Byrne's in appearance and mannerism, but with a well rounded personality capable of both love and hate, a personality that encompasses everything he's been... a bit crazy, violent, humorous, loyal, rebellious, sympathetic, vengeful, clever, eloquent... None of these things have to contradict each other.

But I'm sure we won't agree that he was written way out of character from his early established personality.

At which point in time are you referring? With WO, he was revamped using a bad plot device, I agree. It would have been much better for Wildchild's issues to be dealt with without a 'cure' and without making him look like Fabio. I don't personally see any reason why Byrne's Wildchild couldn't become one of the 'good guys', if perhaps a less trusted one with a chip on his shoulder. It wasn't really his fault he had become a villain in the first place, after all, and the 'Secret Empire Experiment' back story showed a complete lack of creativity. Great, let's make him a Wolvy clone, but with looks fit for a romance novel cover. Lame.

I don't know...I see him as one of those characters that life will always crap on. Mental instability, physical deformity, bad luck in relationships...sometimes, that's just the way a character (or person, for that matter) is.

I don't enjoy seeing anyone suffer like that, so needless to say I don't find such a narrative entertaining in comics, ether. I think it makes him the underdog, though, and could make him endearing if handled right. Why can't the ugly ones be loved? And who in Marvel's massive pool of older characters HASN'T been unstable at some point, if not downright villainous? Some of Marvel's most popular heroes have been there. Oh, and Wolvy use to be a homely little harry man, until the X-Men Movies happened. Liked him better ugly, too. I think Marvel has ruined beauty for me. I'm so over it! LOL

I like the first part of your thought here. I would like to see Wild Child as a (no pun intended) wild card. In one story he can help the heroes with everything he has to give, the next time he shows up he could be the antagonist. Heck, or even switch mid-story. Not, as you put it, a "cackling sadistic maniac", but what his name implies: an unpredictable, mentally unbalanced, emotionally damaged, instinct driven character.

Yay!

Just a personal opinion here, but I'm kind of bored with the "sypmapthetic villain" angle in comics these days. It seems EVERY villain is either the uber-megalomaniac or a sympathetic, tragic character. Whatever happened to the greedy scumbag who just wanted to rob a bank or kidnap some rich kid to ransom him?

Oh, I agree, there should be all types. It's just that in Kyle's case, 'sympathetic' villain makes a lot more sense, given his history. Even anti-hero could work, and I usually hate the anti-hero thing, but that's because it's so often poorly done and involves an unrelateable flat character just being violent and shocking, yet the protagonist of the story. I just think the story should fit the character, rather than people drasticly changing characters to fit their stories.

And I want to apologise to everyone for this thread ending up with such a Wildchild heavy convo. Was not my intention, but if people are up for discussing my faveorite character, I don't turn down the interest. Though sometimes I wonder how we end up here. I guess because he's controversial, in regards to how peoplefeel about his continuity and different incarnations of him? (And I have too many ideas and am stuborn)

I consider what happened to Northstar and Aurora being half-elven as something I termed a long time ago as a "revcon", or "revealed continuity". To me, a retcon is something that changes established continuity (like Tony Stark now creating the Iron Man armor in Afghanistan rather than Viet Nam) whereas a revcon is something that is revealed to us as not being what it first appeared to be. The story where Northstar and Aurora were "revealed" to be half-elven still exists as it was portrayed; it was just revealed later that they (and us) had been lied to by Loki. A new truth was revealed.

I know that was neither here nor there, just thought I'd put it out there.

Great discussion on all sides!

I like that idea of differentiating, but not very many people do it. So they can revcon some stuff out, then. Sounds good to me!

[Garry/Al-Fan]

IMO, it would be payback (and real justice) if somebody put all the mind-wiping "officials" into their own mind-addling machines and redacted 90% of their memories.

[Phil]

Well, Clarke died so it was almost justice.

[EccentricSage]

IMO, it would be payback (and real justice) if somebody put all the mind-wiping "officials" into their own mind-addling machines and redacted 90% of their memories.

Yeah, I would hope that could be dealt with post v4. I mean... I'm sure a lot of people died, can you imagine the elections? It was kind of a ridiculous point to leave off on. Maybe if the series had been ongoing, and these things left hanging were dealt with, I'd have a better impression of the Maxi as a whole... but that last issue was completely over the top, and the whole defeat of the Master was completely dependent upon the Master saying what he did in front of Heather, rather than Mac and the team's plans... It just seemed absurd to me.

I think the re-building of the government in Canada while there's all this super powered strife and Mutant drama just south of the border, as well as how Alpha would pick of the pieces and where they would stand in relations to said government, is far more compelling than the plot of the Maxi.

[Flightpath07]

I think the re-building of the government in Canada while there's all this super powered strife and Mutant drama just south of the border, as well as how Alpha would pick of the pieces and where they would stand in relations to said government, is far more compelling than the plot of the Maxi.

Don't look now, but there could be an Avengers North coming to Marvel soon!

Not saying there IS, just that there COULD BE...