Hulk - Mayan Rule

[Le Messor]

Now I'm sad.

[Phil]

Me and you both, buddy.

[Flightpath07]

But are a lot of people?
Sales show that the majority of fans want these same faces.

Take Avengers pre-Wolverine & Spider-Man joining it and sales then to sales when they joined/now.
The majority of the comics buying public want/are happy with/settle for the norm.

Actually, Phil, I agree with you.

The problem isn't just one of Marvel consumers, it is one of consumers everywhere; people are sheep, they'll buy whatever they are told they need to have. Or whatever their neighbor buys. Tell somebody that something is "popular", whether it actually is or not, and people will rush out to spend their hard-earned dollars on it. People don't think for themselves anymore, which is why advertising is such a big business nowadays.

Which is all to say, i agree with you, Phil. I'm just not sure that sales alone are a true way of telling anybody how "good" a product actually is, as a good con-man can sell anything to anybody. There is a direct proportion between the stupidity (or gullibility) of the people, and the fat wallets of corporations.

And this is why i tend to defend (and support) the little, unknown guys. Not just in comics, but in movies as well. I stay away from name brands, and i stay as much away from advertisements as i can (i refuse to watch live television, due to the commercials); I like to make my own decisions, aside from what anybody else tells me.

[Phil]

Everytime anyone agrees with me they're really surprised by it!
I'm not a complete tyrant; I just have business-mode wired into me

And yeah, I definitely agree; sales do not equal good.

[Flightpath07]

And likewise, good does not equal sales. Its all about the marketing.

Which means, if Marvel decided, for instance, that they wanted to make Alpha Flight the next great thing, they could. They'd over-saturate the market with AF, put 'em in the movies, splash them up everywhere they can, have every interviewer mention them...and then hype the series like never before. They could do it. Its all about marketing. However, Marvel lives and dies by the X-Men and Avengers franchises, plus Wolverine and Cap and Tony and Spidey; they don't NEED a successful Alpha Flight.

[Phil]

I wouldn't say it's all about the marketing.
If a product is bad enough no amount of marketing will help it.

[Le Messor]

Tell somebody that something is "popular", whether it actually is or not, and people will rush out to spend their hard-earned dollars on it.

While I do fall for that a bit (if I keep hearing about something, I tend to watch / read / whatever it - but that doesn't mean I like it), I figured out a long time ago that there's no relationship between popularity and quality: there are good things that're popular, and bad things that're popular. There are good things that're unknown, and bad things that're unknown.
(Works in comics, TV, movies, music, etc...)

i refuse to watch live television, due to the commercials

Me, too! I've never even hooked up the arial in the 3-4 years I've lived in this house.

Everytime anyone agrees with me they're really surprised by it!

Well, not every time!

If a product is bad enough no amount of marketing will help it.

And yet, Akiva Goldsman can still find work.

[Flightpath07]

Everytime anyone agrees with me they're really surprised by it!

Dang it! I agree with THIS, too!

[Legerd]

But are a lot of people?
Sales show that the majority of fans want these same faces.

Take Avengers pre-Wolverine & Spider-Man joining it and sales then to sales when they joined/now.
The majority of the comics buying public want/are happy with/settle for the norm.

Even the amount of people online that vocalise any dislike of Marvel is a tiny percentage of the people who actually buy books, even in this day and age.

The fans want characters who are seen as being the biggest badasses going. This handful of characters are the ones who are always made the center of every story. Whatever they say or do has meaning, because the writers present them as major voices in the Marvel U. If you keep putting the same character at the heart of every event, and present him as the greatest thing since sliced bread people are going to keep wanting to see him. That's what happened with Wolverine. He started out as a throw away character in the Hulk. Then he was the dickish character who got his ass kicked constantly in the New X-men--where he was supposed to die. However, once he was fleshed out with a mysterious backstory, and written as the "best there is", he quickly became a fan favourite. Very few people will support a character seen as being a loser, but most people will back a winner. It's as simple as that.

AF has been damaged goods for a long time due to awful writing. For them to make a comeback they need to be presented as major heroes whose appearance in stories carries weight, rather than being there as punching bags to show how tough the villain is. It will be a slow, uphill journey to make them relevant in the eyes of readers, but it can be done if they are written with the same level of respect as is given to other heroes like Cap, Thor, Iron Man, etc.

[Le Messor]

The fans want characters who are seen as being the biggest badasses going...

Maybe that's an American thing? There are parts of the world where humility is valued.
I find such characters distasteful. Always boasting and bragging, constantly the centre of attention and always 'the best' (a very ill-defined term here), it doesn't impress or interest me.

Sorry.

~ Le Messor
"The way to get things done is not to mind who gets the credit of doing them."
~ Benjamin Jowett

[Flightpath07]

Maybe that's an American thing? There are parts of the world where humility is valued.
I find such characters distasteful. Always boasting and bragging, constantly the centre of attention and always 'the best' (a very ill-defined term here), it doesn't impress or interest me.

Sorry.

~ Le Messor
"The way to get things done is not to mind who gets the credit of doing them."
~ Benjamin Jowett

I agree with Mik. These are usually the types of heroes who, it seems, are most likely to become villains. Egolomaniacs, people who constantly cross the line between what is right and what isn't. I prefer my heroes to be polite, and to have a strong sense of wrong and right, e.g. "no killing"

[Legerd]

Maybe that's an American thing? There are parts of the world where humility is valued.
I find such characters distasteful. Always boasting and bragging, constantly the centre of attention and always 'the best' (a very ill-defined term here), it doesn't impress or interest me.

Sorry.

I didn't mean the best characters were the mouthiest and most arrogant, I meant that they were the ones who always were at the center of every big story being the ones who ultimately were bigger and badder than the villain. When they speak both the people in the MU and the readers accept what they say as being the final word. Thor, Iron Man and Captain America are all like this as well as Reed Richards and Nick Fury. To a lesser extent Spider-man, Wolverine and even Deadpool's words and actions are given more weight than most other characters. Why? Because they are written to be the best. They are the smartest, the strongest, the most powerful, the most flawless.
All I'm saying is AF needs a little of that kind of love from the writers.

[Flightpath07]

All I'm saying is AF needs a little of that kind of love from the writers.

So, here is the age-old debate; is it Quality Before Quantity, or Quantity Before Quality?

Do they get written like "badasses" and at the middle of all events and as somebodies whom others listen to, BEFORE they get pushed into that role by blossoming sales? Or do the sales come first? Do we get Quality of Writing first, or Quantity of Sales first?

Feel free to discuss. "Talk amongst yourselves; I'm a little verklempt."

[Legerd]

So, here is the age-old debate; is it Quality Before Quantity, or Quantity Before Quality?

There's no age-old debate, they have to be written like that so they will have blossoming sales. You won't get Quantity until you have Quality. Not enough people are reading AF since most readers think they are a joke. How do you solve that? Simple, put them in some guest appearances and events where they play a major role, eventually they will be taken seriously by the readers.

I think you're getting hung up on my use of the term "badass". All I mean is a competent hero who can handle whatever situation he finds himself in, is confident of his abilities and who other heroes will listen to. There doesn't need to be any arrogance, or lack of humility. Check out the first part of this link for what I'm talking about.

[Le Messor]

When they speak both the people in the MU and the readers accept what they say as being the final word. Thor, Iron Man and Captain America are all like this as well as Reed Richards and Nick Fury. To a lesser extent Spider-man, Wolverine and even Deadpool...

I didn't mean the best characters were the mouthiest and most arrogant,

No, I'm sure you didn't, but they often seem to end up that way, don't they? I mean, I wouldn't go as far as 'arrogant' - especially since, as you point out, they can back up their boasts... but I don't always feel like 'my' characters have to be the centre of the universe. I don't always feel like they have to be the best there is at what they do.
As long as they get the job done.
Frankly, I relate better to clumsy people who are up the back and don't feel like the world revolves around them.

I noticed particularly in the Infinity story where they fought Her; at least two of the crossover books I read had one character who was 'the only one who really knew what was going on' (which wasn't particularly obscure in the first place). Ours was one of the villains... Karcass?
I soon realised it was an attempt to manipulate us - readers of this small book could feel proud of their characters, making us want to buy more comics.

It was one thing I could never quite stand about Claremont's writing; all his characters were 'the best' (again, a vague, undefined term in the context).

Mannnn, this post is so long it's getting answered while I type it.
I started the next part before Legerd posted this:

All I mean is a competent hero who can handle whatever situation he finds himself in, is confident of his abilities and who other heroes will listen to.

On the other hand...
You are right in that it'd help Alpha a lot if they could sometimes be seen as 'doing something' (another ill-defined term that gets thrown around a lot). If they contributed in a meaningful way to all the crossovers they get thrown into. If they solved a crisis or two. It'd help them, it might even help the MU as a whole - so it wouldn't always be 'Crisis? Call Richards. Crisis over.' 'We're stranded in a pocket universe with Stark and Potts, Captain America, Mary-Jane, Gwen Stacey, and Gilligan. Well, the Professor will solve it, snap of fingers.'

It'd diversify the characters and the crossovers. I agree with you there.

Also, Legerd, just the other day I was wondering if 'being cool' was still a thing people cared about / strived for. The definition you linked to changed the word, but the meaning remains the same, I think.
Or the song remains the same.
(The other day I also bought a bunch of Led Zeppelin at a charity sale.)

~ Le Messor
"Institute: An archaic school where football is not taught."