Hulk - Mayan Rule

[cmdrkoenig67]

Sorry I edited my post so much...LOL. I added a lot (about Snowbird) to it after I posted it.

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

Indeed, it's mentioned in the bios he is class 90 in his base form but can draw on more strength by tapping more into Tanaraq. In the bio it also says, "Langwoski's soul later animated Snowbird's body granting him idential powers as Tanaraq's form".

I actually used to wonder if Wanda (cringe) would theoretically be able to transform into other animals/creatures like Snowbird could, but s/he just didn't know how to? That s/he was only able to turn into Sasquatch because that's all s/he knew and Snowbird's body was able to take that form?

[-K-M-]

BTW: Snowbird being able to transform into Great Beasts is a retcon too, isn't it? She originally could only transform into Native canadian beings and animals, then later she was free to transform into any animal native to Earth (later in Volume 1). As she said in volume 1, she could transform into the Sasquatch form because it was a native-born Canadian creature...Tanaraq is not, as he and the Great Beasts are extra-dimensional beings.

Snowbird being able to transform into Neooqtoq and Tundra are retcons, AFAIK (since they are aliens, unless of course, they were both somehow born on Earth or perhaps their forms are Earthly avatars that she can become?).

Dana

Yes, it's a retcon. Retcons happen there is no denying it. Im not against them, but as I said I feel their ignoring his true origins and retconning it. Then all I have been doing is explaining why this is a retcon.

Also Snowbird could transform into any animal on Earth when she was mortal, when she became immortal again it's only supposed to be from Canada again. Then with her rebirth her powers seemed to have changed under the experiments with AIM. She is still mentioned to be only able to transform into Canadian creatures plus the Great Beasts for some reason.

[-K-M-]

I actually used to wonder if Wanda (cringe) would theoretically be able to transform into other animals/creatures like Snowbird could, but s/he just didn't know how to? That s/he was only able to turn into Sasquatch because that's all s/he knew and Snowbird's body was able to take that form?

Yep Im right with you on that, I feel like Wanda could transform into more transformation, but as you said that's all she knew and thats all she could transform into.

[Phil]

Yes Bryne made a "connection", but the connection as NOTED even by Bryne himself the gamma radiation opened a gateway it did NOT manipulate or modify him directly.

I never once said it did manipulate or modify him.

Nor does gamma radiation course through him, nor is gamma radiation emitted from Walter or Sasquatch

And you were the one who brought up emitting.

and nor did Walter's current body even go through the gamma radiation experiment making it all trivial.

Which is something I mentioned, in agreement.

Following that logic if an energy source is used to open up a doorway such as how Shaman opened up a gateway to the realm of the beasts with magic that means Vindicator, Aurora, etc. all have magical connection then? No.

They do in that regards though.
They have been exposed to magic.
Compared to a normal human being in the Marvel Universe they have a stronger connection to magic, having experienced it.

Mr.Fantastic opens gatways to the Negative zone is he powered by that? No.

Again, nowhere have I said Sasquatch is powered by Gamma.
Mr Fantastic is however now connected to the Negative Zone.

Gamma radiation was the key to open the door

Which is the connection I mentioned that I really really regret doing.

Sasquatch, nor Tanaraq are powered by it their powered by magic as noted.

I totally agree, and have never stated otherwise.

The connection your holding on to is a vague connection and not that strong and prior to Vol.4 was not referenced of Walter being gamma radiation depended.

That's true, it's vague and not often referenced but it exists hence I understand it.
Nowhere did I say I liked it, merely that I understand it.

If you want to nitpick my word use of cameo earlier, Im doing the exact same thing to you now.

I didn't once nitpick.
I said that "I" wouldn't call it a cameo.
Meaning me, myself and I.
My opinion.
You can call it a cameo, I call it something else. Hell, I can call it a blue bouncing banana if I want.
Nowhere did I say that you were wrong to call it a cameo.

Why is it that suddenly this place has become somewhere that I can't express my opinion?
Your initial post asked for my(/our) thoughts and when I give them to you you jump down my throat telling me I'm wrong.

All gamma radiation did was open a door for a mystical force to walk through, that's the extent of the connection.

Which is the only thing I've been saying from the start.

Forget emiting gamma, forget gamma powered, forget gamma beast, forget gamma origin. I never said any of those things originally.

Sasquatch's gamma connection makes sense so I can overlook the possessed-again-ness of it all.

Key words being "connection" and "I can overlook"

Again, I meaning me and only me alone. If I'm the only person in the world who overlooks it then so be it.
I'm not making it law or forcing it upon anyone else.

Can we just agree to disagree and leave it at that extent of a connection as you've mentioned above.

[Phil]

Yes, it's a retcon. Retcons happen there is no denying it. Im not against them, but as I said I feel their ignoring his true origins and retconning it. Then all I have been doing is explaining why this is a retcon.

Going by that logic then, the Tanaraq connection is the retcon.
Sasquatch's origin as told in Volume 1 #11 is all Gamma related.
nowhere is the portal or Tanaraq mentioned in that issue.

Or at least that's how I read it.
Youre welcome to disagree

[Le Messor]

Again, I meaning me and only me alone. If I'm the only person in the world who overlooks it then so be it.
I'm not making it law or forcing it upon anyone else.

It's not just you.

I've understood what you've been saying - and what you haven't - all along; sorry if I haven't made my support clear.

- Mik
"It makes all the difference whether you hear an insect in the garden or in the bedroom."
~ Robert Lynd

[Flightpath07]

As she said in volume 1, she could transform into the Sasquatch form because it was a native-born Canadian creature...Tanaraq is not, as he and the Great Beasts are extra-dimensional beings.

I always thought Snowy could transform into Sasquatch form because 'a Sasquatch' (as clearly shown on Volume 2) is a native form to Canada.

Likewise, i never really thought that Tanaraq (?) made Sasquatch into its avatar, so much as twisted Langkowksi's experiment (which took place both in Canada, and near the fickle nothern lights-which may have played havoc with the experiment as well) so that rather than a pure 'gamma beast form' (and please note that every gamma beast created, they all look different) Walter was transformed into a beast more like both Tanaraq and also like the Sasquatch beast that is native to Canada.

On a side note, shouldn't there be a clear explanation as to why Tanaraq and Sasquatches look so similar?

Also, Walter may likely have, and likely did, expose himself to gamma radiation more than just the single time, as how else would he have known that he was immune to gamma radiation (which is what Fantastic Four issue 267 implies rather strongly)? It is also stated in several places that Walter WAS bombarded with massive amounts of Gamma Rays during his experiment; if he hadn't been, he would have then wondered how and why he could transform into a creature like Sas.

All in all, an interesting discussion. Once again, we reach areas where we can see that we wish past writers (such as Byrne) had been more clear on what Walter went through and how it all relates, and instead we get new writers interpreting these things in ways that fit their current storyline (and many of us don't like it). Such is the fickleness of comics, especially when your team/character is not being written by a trusted writer in an ongoing series; we have no control over what happens to the charcaters we love, and those who temporarily do have the control, have no repercussions for screwing up a character they will drop and never touch again in a few issues.

[Le Messor]

I always thought Snowy could transform into Sasquatch form because 'a Sasquatch' (as clearly shown on Volume 2) is a native form to Canada.

She actually stated clearly that she could become Sasquatch because the bonding of Walt & Tanaraq happened in Canada, which is a technicality.
She even used that word.

Such is the fickleness of comics, especially when your team/character is not being written by a trusted writer in an ongoing series; we have no control over what happens to the charcaters we love, and those who temporarily do have the control, have no repercussions for screwing up a character they will drop and never touch again in a few issues.

*sigh* sad but true.

- Le Messor
"A day is a miniature eternity."
~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

[Flightpath07]

One of the things i love so much about this site, is the people's passion.

So, for anybody who may be a noob here and is reading this thread, "relax, everyone here are friends"! Sometimes our passions for the character(s) get the best of us, and we just have to cut loose with some major complaining, and 'dang all who get in our way' until we have calmed down. But, at the end of the day, everyone here respects each other and our rights to dfferent opinions and such (even though all who disagree with me, are wrong- lol).

I've been known to cut loose a few times myself.

But, like the Ramones sang, "We're a happy family" !

[-K-M-]

I'm not going further in the above posts any further, but since gamma was only used to open a mystical gateway (for Tanaraq to bleed through) there should be no reason a person can manipulate the gamma radiation. Also the fact he is in Snowbird's body, which never went through that experiment. Also in Vol.1 Pestilence and Talisman controlled Sasquatch saying he was a Great Beast several times. You guys are using statements that were even proven wrong later on in Vol.1 and in other series.

Also the Fantastic Four askes Walter to join as he had an expertise on radiation, which he does. Not because he bombards himself with gamma radiation. There are real world humans that are called for their knowledge of radiation to assist in a case study, doesnt mean they expose themselves to radiation it means they know the field.

How could you guys not think Tanaraq made him into his avatar? It's the exact same situation with Tundra and Snowbird's father. He looked exactly like Tundra, but wasn't really Tundra.

[Le Messor]

How could you guys not think Tanaraq made him into his avatar? It's the exact same situation with Tundra and Snowbird's father. He looked exactly like Tundra, but wasn't really Tundra.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that, K-M.

If he can manipulate gamma radiation in the Hulk, that's just a mistake.

- Le Messor
"If you thought yesterday was bad, wait till you see what happens today."

[Phil]

there should be no reason a person can manipulate the gamma radiation.

I'm at a loss as to where this is coming from.
I haven't seen manipulation mentioned anywhere.
If it has been, I apologise.

Also the fact he is in Snowbird's body, which never went through that experiment.

Again, I agree with you.

You guys are using statements that were even proven wrong later on in Vol.1 and in other series.

Proven wrong or retconned?

There are real world humans that are called for their knowledge of radiation to assist in a case study, doesnt mean they expose themselves to radiation it means they know the field.

That's true; it doesn't mean they do.
However it has been shown that Walter did.
It's since been written/retconned/whatever that the exposing himself to radiation had nothing to do with Sasquatch.
That's fine, again I never stated that it did, but it doesn't erase that fact that he still exposed himself to it. At least in his body.

[Flightpath07]

Also the Fantastic Four askes Walter to join as he had an expertise on radiation, which he does. Not because he bombards himself with gamma radiation. There are real world humans that are called for their knowledge of radiation to assist in a case study, doesnt mean they expose themselves to radiation it means they know the field.

Ack. Now that I had a chance to open the issue and look again, i see you are right; my bad. I know I saw/read something just recently, though, that said that Langkowski DID bombard himself with massive amounts of gamma rays. As i cannot come up with where, however, I''ll drop it and concede the point to you.

UPDATED: Machine Man issue 18: "Years ago, Dr. Walter Langkowski discovered that he was one of an infinitessimaly small percentage of the earth's population who would not have a fatal reaction to gamma radiation! Through controlled irradiation, he could achieve awesome power...Intense mental concentration triggers his gamma altered thyroid! His body hair takes on a golden hue...and thickens! His muscles bulge with incredible strength, and..Sasquatch walks the earth!"

So, after finding and reading this, I stand by my original thoughts. Any mention of Sasquatch NOT being subjected to gamma radiation, and THAT being the cause of his transformation into Sasquatch, is incorrect, and is a "retconned hatchet job" (my own words). It was not in sticking to the true character design. Walter Langkowski was supposed to be Sasquatch, because he was subjected to gamma radiation. That was how he was originally written, both by his creator, John Byrne, and by Tom DeFalco in the issue quoted above, dated December of 1980.

I haven't read the Hulk issue(s) yet, but have no problem with them mentioning something that is keeping with hpw the character was originally written and meant to be. Unfortunately, people changing written history, and then other people changing it back, happens all the time in comics.

[Le Messor]

Any mention of Sasquatch NOT being subjected to gamma radiation, and THAT being the cause of his transformation into Sasquatch, is incorrect, and is a "retconned hatchet job" (my own words). It was not in sticking to the true character design. Walter Langkowski was supposed to be Sasquatch, because he was subjected to gamma radiation. That was how he was originally written, both by his creator, John Byrne, and by Tom DeFalco in the issue quoted above, dated December of 1980.

Well, K-M is right in that it was Byrne's "retconned hatchet job"; he was originally written as a gamma-powered creature (à là Hulk), but the actual cause of his transformation into Sasquatch is that he became linked to Tanaraq.

He clearly bombarded himself with gamma radiation in his origin in #11; note all his talk about "My intent: to recreate, under controlled conditions, the circumstances which produced the Hulk." and then bombards himself with gamma radiation.

However, in #23, Narya's parents tell her to "Look now upon the form and substance of one of the Last Seven, of the Great Beasts." - and it's Sasquatch. (btw, that answers another controversy we've had - are there only seven Great Beasts? There are now. Which pretty much puts me in the wrong on that one.)

Snowbird repeats his talk of wanting to duplicate the Banner Hulk experiment, then: "At first it seemed that he had been successful... But I now know it was not transformation so much as transposition. Langkowski unleashed for a fraction of a second enough physical energy to sunder the mystical barrier that holds the Great Beasts."

So here's why everybody in this argument is right:
Walt's Sasquatch origin did begin with him bombarding himself with gamma radiation.
However, that bombardment didn't create a new Hulk, but instead opened up a doorway for a mystical creature.

Gamma radiation is the origin of his getting the power, but not the source of the power.
If it hadn't been for Tanaraq, he'd likely have been another Hulk.

So, if he were still in his original body (which he isn't), the way Marvel physics work, he could still be emitting gamma radiation.

I think I left sense behind a couple of paragraphs ago.

- Le Messor
"If you want the rainbow, you got to put up with the rain."