Volume 4 questions

[Le Messor]

Well, ok, don't know if Byrne meant for Mac to be that hate-worthy...

Nope. He meant AF to be nothing more than a team that could go toe-to-toe with the X-Men.

- Le Messor
"If you're not very clever you should be conciliatory."
~ Benjamin Disraeli

[EccentricSage]

Nope. He meant AF to be nothing more than a team that could go toe-to-toe with the X-Men.

- Le Messor
"If you're not very clever you should be conciliatory."
~ Benjamin Disraeli

I could have sworn I remembered an interview quote where he said it was his intent to kill off Guardian from the start and create Vindicator because that would be more interesting. I can't remember the exact quote, but I liked his thinking.

[Le Messor]

I could have sworn I remembered an interview quote where he said it was his intent to kill off Guardian from the start

I think that depends on what we mean by 'the start'; I suspect you're talking Alpha Flight #1, but I'm talking Uncanny X-Men #109 (and before).

create Vindicator because that would be more interesting.

... but no, Byrne never wanted Heather in the battlesuit.
On one of the letters pages he even says that putting that costume on the female form boggles the mind.

- Le Messor
"If you're studying geology, which is all facts, as soon as you get out of school you forget it all... but philosophy, you remember just enough to screw you up for the rest of your life."
~ Steve Martin

[EccentricSage]

I think that depends on what we mean by 'the start'; I suspect you're talking Alpha Flight #1, but I'm talking Uncanny X-Men #109 (and before).



... but no, Byrne never wanted Heather in the battlesuit.
On one of the letters pages he even says that putting that costume on the female form boggles the mind.

- Le Messor
"If you're studying geology, which is all facts, as soon as you get out of school you forget it all... but philosophy, you remember just enough to screw you up for the rest of your life."
~ Steve Martin

Seriously? Now I'm just confused and disappointed. This has not been a good night for me.

No, I remember him trying to force Wolverine into leading Alpha Flight. Mac is an overbearing prick in his early incarnation, so I'm disappointed that he's Mr Perfect all of a sudden.

[Le Messor]

Well, his firstest appearance was kind of as a villain.

Sorry make you sad.

[Flightpath07]

I agree with ES about Guardian's "perfection". he was better when he didn't want to be leader and worried about it all the time. Better when he had more flaws. I mean, suddenly his wife and child run off, and he is all okay with it? WT...! I mean, he just goes on leading the team?!? Really?!? I think that there was too much Marvel interference in Volume 4. Just MHO, of course. But I think marvel wanted AF to be more "exciting" (in their eyes) or the last series would never have been written. Thus, Fred and Greg had to make some massive changes; turn Sasquatch stupid, turn Puck insane, make Shaman sexy, give Marrina tattoos and a punk attitude, get rid of Heather and Claire, and make Guardian into a more Captain America type hero. Although I ENJOYED Volume 4 and am thankful I got to read some AF, and think that the creative team did the best job they could with what they were told to do (again, my opinion), when i think back over it I have as many problems with it as I did with the Omega Flight mini-series. I find, in hindsight, it leaves a "distasteful" feeling in the back of my throat.

[EccentricSage]

But you don't get to hand wave an a****** moment just because the character was playing a villain role in one story, not unless there's some heavy mind control BS going on, and even then, well, look at how Wildchild fared despite having the mind control excuse on his side for Byrne's run. Guardian may have had good intentions in his heart, but how he achieved his dream was a mess, as well as how he handled it when Department H was closed down.

I agree with Flightpath. Guardian is more interesting as a flawed character. I didn't really hate him untill vol.4, I guess. lol Before he was rather tragic. Now he's one of those Perfect Leading Male types, and at the cost of Vindicator who was a stronger leader than Guardian in Vol.1.

Was there any explanation for Marina's complete change of personality? My god she's annoying now. Vol 4 is a bit too X-Tream 90's for me. I get that Sas has an injury causing forgetfulness, but that wouldn't render a person stupid.

[Le Messor]

But you don't get to hand wave an a****** moment just because the character was playing a villain role in one story, not unless there's some heavy mind control BS going on

Fair enough. I just take it as somebody doing something they don't want to for their job.

Was there any explanation for Marina's complete change of personality? My god she's annoying now. Vol 4 is a bit too X-Tream 90's for me. I get that Sas has an injury causing forgetfulness, but that wouldn't render a person stupid.

Agree, totally.

I seem to remember the writer saying at some point (contrariwise to FP's point above), that he made Marrina a punk because he didn't like the type of character she was originally.

- Le Messor
"Ignorance doesn't kill you, but it makes you sweat a lot."
~ Proverb

[Flightpath07]

(contrariwise to FP's point above)

ACK!!!! Okay, I call you on that one! There is no such word! C'mon, let's keep some seriositiness in these conversations, shall we!

[EccentricSage]

Hey, I'm all for creative languosity. Words like 'bedroom' didn't even exist until Shakespeare made them up.

I took Mac's actions more as him doing what he had to do because he doesn't want the job. Mac struck me as the sort of well intentioned idealist who's so stuck on his vision that he doesn't respect the free will of others if it gets in the way of his plans. Which is interesting. Kind of like that type of boss who always talks about how you're all a team, and he appreciates you, but then never listens, but is so god damned nice about it usually that people go along with it anyhow. What I like about Byrne's Alpha Flight is that it was a story about economic disparity and the influence of it on people's behavior as much as anything. I just wish he'd gone into more exploration of the villains. I feel like the most interesting part of the story was hardly touched upon.

"I seem to remember the writer saying at some point (contrariwise to FP's point above), that he made Marrina a punk because he didn't like the type of character she was originally."

Well I just lost any respect I had for said writer. That is some bull****. If you don't like a character, don't use them, or develop them in a direction you like. You don't just suddenly write them out of character because you like it better. That's bad fan fiction tier bull****.

Marina's original personality was actually a lot like the typical 'Moe' characters in anime. There's a market for that type of character, and they're easy to write. The problem with Marvel writers is that they're obsessed with angst and don't seem to know how to write characters who are anything but ether bitter and jaded or else a lucky idealistic fool who's always right because he's Just That Good and Just. I hate that.

I don't think the writer kept his promise to be true to the core of what Alpha Flight was.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Not that I think MARVEL will do it, but it should try something it has not done, before: revise/renew the series with AF# 29A. And a little while later, if another creative team comes up with another possible time-line, restart the series with AF # 29B. This way, fans who like the Mantlo timeline can keep the Mantlo timeline; those who don't can have another time-line.

Don't know who would want to revamp the old stories, what with the possibility of tinkering with things that have already happened (origin of Lady Deathstrike and the Avengers/Alpha Flight crossover).

[Le Messor]

ACK!!!! Okay, I call you on that one! There is no such word! C'mon, let's keep some seriositiness in these conversations, shall we!

Can I help it if I like to verb words?

"I seem to remember the writer saying at some point (contrariwise to FP's point above), that he made Marrina a punk because he didn't like the type of character she was originally."

Well I just lost any respect I had for said writer... You don't just suddenly write them out of character because you like it better...
I don't think the writer kept his promise to be true to the core of what Alpha Flight was.

Yeah, I've always felt the same way.
Again, a poor craftsman blaming his tools.

Not that I think MARVEL will do it, but it should try something it has not done, before: revise/renew the series with AF# 29A. And a little while later, if another creative team comes up with another possible time-line, restart the series with AF # 29B...
Don't know who would want to revamp the old stories...

An Alpha Flight Forever? Any possibility they can get John Byrne '85 to do it?
I'd love to see that!

- Le Messor
"I'll do anything you say. In fact I'll even stay. But I must be going."
~ Groucho in Animal Crackers

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Me, too, Le Messor. Alpha Flight is solid at its core, and with a lot of care in storytelling and understanding of the characters, another good run is possible.

If MARVEL is still truly "the House of Ideas."

[EccentricSage]

I need to fill in the last of the holes in Byrne's run on AF and see if I can come up with something, just as a fan.

What a fun idea! I'd love to have seen from Byrne what Gamma and Beta flight were like BEFORE they were disbanded, for example, even if just a brief flash back during Omega Flights run as the main villains. I found them more intriguing than the heroes. I wanted to know which members of the flights new each other, who had tensions and why. I mean, the Omegans were disgruntled former employees pretty much... told they would be heros, rescued from the **** lives they had, then just thrown out on the streets because they lost funding. Yet Mac keeps his elite recruits... there's so much story to be had there!

[rplass]

I agree with EccentricSage. A Beta Flight/Gamma Flight series that takes place in the early days when Dept H was forming would be amazing. We all stared at that panel with Beta and Gamma Flight members from Alpha Flight #1 wondering who they were, and Byrne filled out those characters later... but we never got the full story about what happened before that panel!