The Proposal

[rplass]

Oh the very cool! I will PM my address! thanks

[Legerd]

A little bit of info you all may be interested to know (if you don't already) according to Dale Eaglesham on his site the wedding was supposed to be in AF vol. 4.

This drives me absolutely crazy: Greg, Fred and I do all the work of bringing the series back and they cancel it on us. Why didn't they let US do the wedding "event" which is clearly garnering attention, to stimulate readership perhaps keep Alpha Flight going? This pisses me off. Oh no, let the "X" books do it, as if they don't get enough attention. Sigh......

This wedding was in the works on AF.

D

[Flightpath07]

Uh...

Not to pick on poor Marvel again (but its SO EASY...), but...isn't it entirely possible that when the-powers-that-be realized what a huge amount of interest the wedding would generate, that they decided to NOT allow it to happen in Alpha Flight, instead moving it to X-Men where they could shunt the spotlight off of our beloved Alpha Flight and on to something (anything) else?

Now, i am NOT saying that this is the reason Volume 4 got cancelled. But, i will throw this out there, without knowing any actual facts (so don't hate me, I'm just thinking):

- At one point, Volume 4 went from a maxi-series, to an ongoing title.
- Not long after (several weeks later?), it was announced that the ongoing idea was scratched, and AF was back to a maxi-series.
- What if, during the time between those last two events, Greg and Fred and Dale came up with some plot points for the ongoing, including the Wedding of JP and Kyle...and then, rather than wanting to risk garnishing too much positive attention for a super-team that some of Marvel's higher ups clearly show disdain for, Marvel instead quickly cancelled the ongoing, told the AF team that they couldn't use thewedding idea, and then stole it and attached it to X-Men instead (where Alpha Flight would hardly get mentioned)...

No proof. Just plenty of suspicion. And ill feelings towards Marvel.

As Dale says,

This wedding was in the works on AF.

Nasty, bad, evil Marvel!

btw, thanx for the info, Legerd.

[Phil]

Not that I have any insight but playing possible devil's advocate:

Having Northstar & Kyle move their relationship forward seems a logical progression, especially from the way Freg were writing them in Volume 4, with JP being the reluctant Alphan and prefering to focus on his civilian life.
Having a wedding between the two seems like a zeitgeist idea; I'm sure many writers were having it and given Marjorie Liu is also a romance writer it makes sense for her to think that way also.
If the wedding was in the works between Fred, Greg and Dale it doesn't necessarilly mean Marvel editorial said they couldn't do it and then told Liu she had to do it.

Having a wedding in Canada wouldn't have been as much of a big thing as in New York City news-wise, and we're all looking at it from Alpha Flight fans perspective.
As much as I'd have loved, Loved, LOVED to see Dale draw the wedding Northstar is more of an X character these days, and he seems more at home there than being in AF as he was always coerced into being the team by Mac.
Were this XMen.net and the wedding happened in the pages of Alpha Flight we'd all be complaining it happened that way round.

Plus; it's brought a lot more attention being in an X-Men title, cynical marketing plot or not.
But it's not anti-AF bias; had the wedding been in the pages of Young Avengers between it's gay characters that still wouldn't have exploded as much as one with an X-Man would.
I personally really can't see this 'clear distain' for AF; they marketed the heck out of Volume 4 and it was readers that let it down - the sales do not lie.
If Marvel didn't want AF to have any part in the wedding then they wouldn't even be cameo-ing in the issue.

But that's all just a flip of the coin view.

Personally I loved Volume 4 and wanted it to continue.

[Flightpath07]

"I personally really can't see this 'clear distain' for AF"

Well, it would be time consuming to go back over old threads and finds quotes from Marvel staff, or find links to articles and interviews where some people say some fairly foolish things about AF; however, we all should remember that these things occurred, and they ARE there to be researched and dug up. In fact, we have had Marvel staff laugh at Alpha Flight, mock them, make fun of them, downplay them, and ridicule both them and their fans, on more than one occasion; hardly a good way to do business.

Just off the top of my head, do we now think that killing them off-panel wasn't disdainful? How about the entirety of Volume 3? I enjoyed a few portions of it, but a few pages out of 12 issues of crap is not much to smile about. Whose idea was it to allow Volume 3 to be put out? Seems it did more harm than good. How about Pointer in the Guardian suit? That wasn't full of disrespect and disdain?

Look, I'm not trying to start a fight, but sometimes we are too quick to put out the fires, and we don't spend enough time looking for the reasons the fires start!

If Greg and Dale and Fred had been allowed to continue the series and start advertising the upcoming nuptails, say starting in issue 4, run the ads for a few months in every Marvel mag, do massive interviews, are you trying to say that the press wouldn't have been flocking to read the issue of Alpha Flight where the gay hero gets married? I'd say, of course they would flock! Especially if done correctly. Hell, Marvel could have had a couple of Avengers and X-Men issues coming out at the same time, dealing with the issue of the wedding, heroes getting ready to go to it, best wishes for the happy couple, all that sort of thing, to further peak interest in the issue. I don't think that it being Alpha Flight, or set in Canada, should have or would have any bearing on the issue it raises.

'Northstar, the member of Alpha Flight (who is also a member of the X-Men) getting married to another man', would have gotten just as much airplay and facetime and news stories, if done correctly by Marvel, as 'Northstar the X-Man getting married to another man'.

Unfortunately, like it or not, this isn't a marriage issue, this is a gay marriage issue. The issue is huger than normal, because of the issue it is forcing the public's attention to.

Having it happen in Canada, where Northstar is actually a citizen, would have made FAR more sense. That's my opinion, and I am sticking to it.



"Northstar is more of an X character these days"

If Alpha Flight Volume 4 was still going, that'd be a moot point at best.

[Flightpath07]

"Personally I loved Volume 4 and wanted it to continue. "

Ditto. I find a few faults with it, but most of those are due to it not being long enough.

And Phil, i still love you, even though we don't agree too often.

[Phil]

Well, it would be time consuming to go back over old threads and finds quotes from Marvel staff, or find links to articles and interviews where some people say some fairly foolish things about AF

But that doesn't necessarilly equal disdain, AND it's the personal opinion of staff, not the company's stance as a whole.
If it was company mandate to disdain AF then the characters would never be used again; there'd be no guest appearances, no maxi-series, no solictations, no posters, no interviews. They would be completely ignored and effectively erased from continuity.
Everytime there's an AF relaunch the interviews are littered with comments about how much AF is loved by staff and writers and how they constantly get AF pitches and that it's hard to find one that works.

In fact, we have had Marvel staff laugh at Alpha Flight, mock them, make fun of them, downplay them, and ridicule both them and their fans, on more than one occasion; hardly a good way to do business.

As they have done to other heroes and teams and books; to me it's not a 'clear disdain for AF'.
As to business; I agree it doesn't help, but they still promoted the heck out of Volume 4 - beyond other books.

Just off the top of my head, do we now think that killing them off-panel wasn't disdainful?

I don't personally; no. I don't agree it was a great storyline or great writing (but then again I don't think much of Bendis' work is generally) but it's not a case of them being the first heroes Marvel have ever killed off.
It got people who hadn't cared about AF in years caring about the team again, albeit briefly.
Plus the deaths led to Omega Flight which I enjoyed.
Plus it erased the whole Volume 3/Temporal Copies thing.

How about the entirety of Volume 3? I enjoyed a few portions of it, but a few pages out of 12 issues of crap is not much to smile about. Whose idea was it to allow Volume 3 to be put out?

But one man's crap is another man's gold.
There were people out there who loved Volume 3, and people who got into AF purely through it.
It wasn't completely my cup of tea either.
Marvel took a chance on trying something new (which is what a lot of us say they don't try) - they tried a JLI type superheroey-humour book which worked really well for DC. It pretty much failed and they saw that and pulled the plug before it could get any worse.

How about Pointer in the Guardian suit? That wasn't full of disrespect and disdain?

Maybe to a Canadian; that's something I can't judge not being one.

If Greg and Dale and Fred had been allowed to continue the series and start advertising the upcoming nuptails, say starting in issue 4, run the ads for a few months in every Marvel mag, do massive interviews, are you trying to say that the press wouldn't have been flocking to read the issue of Alpha Flight where the gay hero gets married?

But there weren't a few months worth of ad's in every Marvel mag or massive interviews before the issue this way round.
Why should a wedding in the pages of AF be treated more specially than one in X-Men?
That's bias towards AF.

And yes, I truly believe that even had Fred/Greg/Dale been the new creative team on Astonishing X-men and written the exact same wedding in there that they had planned for AF Vol.4 it would sell more copies labeled as 'X-Men' than as 'Alpha Flight' even with equal advertising and equal interviews. The 'X-Men' is a general public brand name now - like 'Coke' 'McDonalds' etc. Alpha Flight isn't.

Especially if done correctly. Hell, Marvel could have had a couple of Avengers and X-Men issues coming out at the same time, dealing with the issue of the wedding, heroes getting ready to go to it, best wishes for the happy couple, all that sort of thing, to further peak interest in the issue.

But that's your definition of 'correctly' and isn't a business-orientated one.
They haven't had Avengers and X-Men issues coming out this way round either, have they?

I don't think that it being Alpha Flight, or set in Canada, should have or would have any bearing on the issue it raises.

But the same-sex marriage in New York is a newer thing; fresh as part of the Obama regime and is bigger news.

'Northstar, the member of Alpha Flight (who is also a member of the X-Men) getting married to another man', would have gotten just as much airplay and facetime and news stories, if done correctly by Marvel, as 'Northstar the X-Man getting married to another man'.

Again, I don't think it would.
How many non-comics people remember the coming-out of Northstar? That made the news.

Unfortunately, like it or not, this isn't a marriage issue, this is a gay marriage issue. The issue is huger than normal, because of the issue it is forcing the public's attention to.

But what baring does the fact that it's a gay marriage have on what title it appears in? I agree; it's a gay marriage issue and it's a huge issue having one.

Having it happen in Canada, where Northstar is actually a citizen, would have made FAR more sense. That's my opinion, and I am sticking to it.

Have we had confirmation that Kyle is a Canadian citizen?

If Alpha Flight Volume 4 was still going, that'd be a moot point at best.

It's not though, because even in Volume 4, he wasn't a team member of Alpha Flight AND he was still appearing in X-titles as a team member of the X-Men.

But anyway, as I say; all partly my opinion, partly business sense and partly just to give Marvel's opinion because they deserve someone on the site to do so.

[Phil]

And Phil, i still love you, even though we don't agree too often.

And vice-versa. It's nothing aimed at you personally; I'll disagree and state the opposite case against anyone and everyone on here who accuses Marvel of bias.
It'd be boring if we all agreed on everything, all the time.

[Le Messor]

they marketed the heck out of Volume 4 and it was readers that let it down - the sales do not lie.
Personally I loved Volume 4 and wanted it to continue.

That's... one point of view.

'Northstar, the member of Alpha Flight (who is also a member of the X-Men) getting married to another man', would have gotten just as much airplay and facetime and news stories, if done correctly by Marvel, as 'Northstar the X-Man getting married to another man'.

I have #106 sitting on my coffee table behind me right now (somebody asked to borrow it)...

Everytime there's an AF relaunch the interviews are littered with comments about how much AF is loved by staff and writers and how they constantly get AF pitches and that it's hard to find one that works.

That could be considered a cynical marketing ploy. By those who want to say Marvel are anti-AF.
(My stance is, I don't know for sure one way or the other, but there are lines you probably shouldn't cross and things you shouldn't say, if for the sake of customer relations alone - and higher ups in Marvel have crossed those lines and said those things. See FP's (vague) comment above.)

I don't personally; no. I don't agree it was a great storyline or great writing (but then again I don't think much of Bendis' work is generally) but it's not a case of them being the first heroes Marvel have ever killed off.

Bendis is notorious for decompressed story-telling; dragging out scenes wayyy longer than they need to be. Spending several pages showing us a couple of henchmen talking about The Simpsons, instead of the heroes heroing.
And... there's this.

But one man's crap is another man's gold.

... and vice versa.

Marvel took a chance on trying something new (which is what a lot of us say they don't try) - they tried a JLI type superheroey-humour book which worked really well for DC.

One of the differences there is that JLI showed respect for its characters. Just sayin'.
(I've recently read quite a bit of it.)

How about Pointer in the Guardian suit? That wasn't full of disrespect and disdain?

Maybe to a Canadian; that's something I can't judge not being one.

Y'know, I didn't start this reply with the intention of tearing down all of Phil's points... it's just kinda gone that way.
As a non-Canadian, for me the problem is (besides putting a non-Canadian in the patriotic costume of the country, which I find disrespectful) putting the guy who killed the entire team in the costume of the team leader.

Have we had confirmation that Kyle is a Canadian citizen?

I don't think we have.

And vice-versa. It's nothing aimed at you personally; I'll disagree and state the opposite case against anyone and everyone on here who accuses Marvel of bias.
It'd be boring if we all agreed on everything, all the time.

Me too, and yes it would.

- Le Messor
"If you limit your actions in life to things that nobody can possibly find fault with, you will not do much."
~ Lewis Carroll

[Flightpath07]

Phil and LeMess; thank you for the interesting round-table discussions on this topic.

Phil, i appreciate your candor in that you admit that you want to make sure Marvel's side (or what you believe is Marvels' side) is told here. And i understand, completely. After all, if the moderators here allowed Marvel-bashing without somebody trying to defend the company, why would anybody associated with Marvel want to come here and do interviews or whatnot? I get that. And i respect that, i really do.

I agree with LeMessor, in that the issue with Pointer was more about him being Alpha Flight's killer, than about him being a non-Canadian. That being said, Phil you said you can't understand this because you are not Canadian? Would people accept a Chinese (from China, not an American born person of Chinese descent) person who killed Captain America being placed into his costume to serve as Americ'a standard-bearer? Would the English like it if Captain Britain was killed by a South American person, and then that person replaced Captain Britain (at your country's behest)? It really isn't that hard to understand. (And it would likely never even be tried by a Brit writer, or the Captain America one by an American writer, nor the Guardian one by a Canadian writer).

As LeMessor pointed out, Phil, just because some higher-up employees at Marvel say derogatory things about Alpha Flight and their fans, yes, it may not be the actual company saying that, but the employees represent that company to the world by what they say and do. I've never seen or heard of Marvel coming down on an employee and demanding they retract a statement, or issuing an apology themselves. Keeping silent makes you just as guilty as the offending party.

We all know that there are people who work for Marvel, or who have worked for Marvel, or who will work for Marvel, who love Alpha Flight. What we don't know, and cannot know because we aren't in the boardroom, is how much the company actually puts into Alpha Flight. All we see is the finished product, and a few quotes here and there. Were there ways bandied about in the boardroom to make Volume 4 a better seller (for instance, by introducing Marvel's first gay marriage into the series), that were summarily shot down or thrust aside? We'll never know for sure, but we can surmise and talk about it. Talk is cheap and doesn't prove anything, but likewise so far Marvel's actions in favour of Alpha Flight haven't yet convinced me that they actually want it to succeed - too many missed opportunities.

Anyways, this is what this forum is all about. Intelligent discussion. I bring the discussion, the rest of you bring the intelligence!

[Phil]

I agree with LeMessor, in that the issue with Pointer was more about him being Alpha Flight's killer, than about him being a non-Canadian.

Then I apologise, I thought you simply meant because he was an America wrapped in a Canadian flag.
However; if we're talking about Pointer being a killer he wasn't.He
He was simply the instrument used whilst being possessed by Xorn. He's no more guilty than a sword or a gun is.
And if him being the 'killer' is the issue then Sasquatch & Snowbird shouldn't be accepted for their crimes possessed by Tanaraq, Marrina as a Leviathan, Heather by Unity/The Master, Wildchild by The Secret Empire, Guardian by The Master, Puck by Raazer, Northstar as a terrorist...
Surely you can't hold one person by a different standard?

That being said, Phil you said you can't understand this because you are not Canadian? Would the English like it if Captain Britain was killed by a South American person, and then that person replaced Captain Britain (at your country's behest)?

No, I can't understand, because there you're implying that Mac is Captain Canada; which he's not. He's a scientist and Superhero who happens to be Canadian and protects the world.
Your logic gives strength to the view that all AF are are the Canadian Avengers; which they're not - they're just from Canada and based in Canada.
They deal with world threats.
I'd be fine with a South American wearing an English flag and protecting the country if he were called something akin to Guardian.

It really isn't that hard to understand.

To me it is.
Why was there no uproar when Windshear joined the team and wore Canadian flag?
To me, Pointer is just the same.

[Le Messor]

I have #106 sitting on my coffee table behind me right now (somebody asked to borrow it)...

Oh, btw... On Phil's side of the equation: He asked me if I have the issue of X-Men where Northstar came out.

And if him being the 'killer' is the issue then Sasquatch & Snowbird shouldn't be accepted for their crimes possessed by Tanaraq, Marrina as a Leviathan, Heather by Unity/The Master, Wildchild by The Secret Empire, Guardian by The Master, Puck by Raazer, Northstar as a terrorist...
Surely you can't hold one person by a different standard?
No, I can't understand, because there you're implying that Mac is Captain Canada; which he's not.

'Standard' being the operative word - 'standard' being another word for flag. If Pointer had been accepted onto the team with his own costume and whatever, I wouldn't mind; but being put in the flagship role, there I have a problem.
You've highlighted, though, where our difference in thinking is - you see, I do see him as Captain Canada.
If you don't (a valid viewpoint, I'm not arguing it), then I can understand you not understanding this.
(I know he never intended to be that; but he also never intended to lead the Flight.)

- Le Messor
"If you put your supper dish to your ear you can hear the sounds of a restaurant."
~ Snoopy

[Flightpath07]

No, I can't understand, because there you're implying that Mac is Captain Canada; which he's not. He's a scientist and Superhero who happens to be Canadian and protects the world.

Just because he doesn't call himself Captain Canada, doesn't mean he shouldn't that doesn't mean that he isn't the embodiment of the nation.



Alpha Flight Volume 1, Issue 2;
Shaman speaking to Vindicator (James Hudson):
"Then accept something else. You wear the flag of Canada as your costume. Wear also the spirit. You are our own Captain America, James. You represent the nation. And while you may feel you have much to vindicate, Canada does not."

And thus we know that by the time James Hudson chose the name Guardian, he did so because he realized Michael Twoyoungmen was right; he was Canada's 'Captain America', and he represented the spirit of the nation of Canada.

[Phil]

Right, but by that logic anyone that wears the flag is the embodiment of Canada and represents the nation whether they are Canadian or not.

Why does Canada's guardian have to be Canadian?

If it came down to the whole of Canada being destroyed and every citizen being killed, or being saved by an American wearing the Guardian suit that American would still be The Guardian of Canada.

Mac never set out to become Captain Canada; he fell into the role. Why couldn't Pointer have fallen into the same role?

[Mokole]

Some characters are just iconic. A Canadian as Guardian, a Canadian as Puck. If it doesn't matter, then as people say let's have a French Captain Britain, a Saudi Captain America, make Silver Sable Congolese even. Some characters are tied to nationality, and that's not a bad thing. Who wants a WWII Hitler pastiche to be American, for instance?