Byrne-inspired

[Flightpath07]

Like the square jaws on Mike and Judd!

[Le Messor]

I really like (volume 4's) new-look MARRINA... I'm trying not to get so stuck in the past that I can't appreciate some of the things that have actually made the originals better.

I'd like to not be, but it turns out I genuinely like the past better (based on figuring out that I get genuine enjoyment of past things that I just don't get from current things).
I'm not a fan of the new look Marrina.
Though she did have some of the best lines.

[Turning "Heather" into a cold-blooded killer, notwithstanding]

Well, they (v4 creative team)'re not the first.

- Le Messor
"If you don't like someone, the way he holds his spoon makes you furious; If you like him, he can turn his plate over in your lap and you won't mind."
~ Irving Becker

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Couldn't agree more on the enjoyment-factor. Even with the issues I took exception with, I liked them a lot more than some of the "books" since then.

Updating MARRINA's look and personality are good ideas and I think one of the strongest contributions that the volume 4 team has made.

So I'm not making an incorrect assumption, do you mean the Mantlo-"killing"-Snowbird fiasco (poorly-conceived-and-executed plot device to get rid of old characters to make room for "new" characters)? It didn't take (Snowbird's "death" was corrected, as it should have been, since technological weapons weren't supposed to be the thing to do her in).

Re-reading the 1st volume is okay, but the thought of a contemporary take on the original team that tells a complete, satisfying story is what I would really like to read.

[Le Messor]

Updating MARRINA's look and personality are good ideas and I think one of the strongest contributions that the volume 4 team has made.

I do know that I'm pretty much alone in not liking that.

So I'm not making an incorrect assumption, do you mean the Mantlo-"killing"-Snowbird fiasco (poorly-conceived-and-executed plot device to get rid of old characters to make room for "new" characters)? It didn't take (Snowbird's "death" was corrected, as it should have been, since technological weapons weren't supposed to be the thing to do her in).

That is what I mean, though I think it's not the only thing she did.
I'm not defending it, just saying there's established precedent. (And Snowbird coming back is irrelevant - Vindicator killed her; that's all that matters for this discussion.)

Re-reading the 1st volume is okay, but the thought of a contemporary take...

I'd prefer more stories in the original style. I'd enjoy it more.

- Le Messor
"If you don't make a total commitment to whatever you're doing, then you start to bail out the first time the boat starts leaking. It's tough enough getting that boat to shore with everybody rowing, let alone when a guy stands up and starts putting his life jacket on."
~ Lou Holtz, football coach

[Flightpath07]

I'd prefer more stories in the original style. I'd enjoy it more.

Any chance we can turn Claremont into a huge AF fan and get him to write a Classic Alpha Flight series?

[Having just typed that, I realize that some of you don't like Claremont or his writing style and will be against this idea. My apologies if I have offended some. My only idea was to get somebody involved in the actual creation of AF (or in this case, Wolverine at least) from back in the JB day, some who DOESN'T hate their own creations with a passion, who could then have a go at writing the original line-up in classic stories in more of the style JB might have written them if he had continued writing (and not hating) Alpha Flight.]

[Le Messor]

I think that some of the best AF stories have come from Claremont - though I'm not certain if Claremont now could to a great job.

- Le Messor
"If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else."
~ Yogi Berra (attrib)

[Flightpath07]

I think that some of the best AF stories have come from Claremont - though I'm not certain if Claremont now could to a great job.

- Le Messor
"If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else."
~ Yogi Berra (attrib)

Has his writing, in your opinion, slipped, or are you alluding to something else?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Claremont

[Le Messor]

His writing has slipped in a lot of people's opinions; but I like X-Men Forever. I have, however, found some of his post-X-Men work a bit self-indulgent. Well, Sovereign Seven. While I liked it, it felt like he knew the characters, so why don't we?

- Le Messor
"If you ever teach a yodelling class, probably the hardest thing is to keep the students from just trying to yodel right off. You see, we build to that."
~ Jack Handey

[Flightpath07]

His writing has slipped in a lot of people's opinions; but I like X-Men Forever. I have, however, found some of his post-X-Men work a bit self-indulgent. Well, Sovereign Seven. While I liked it, it felt like he knew the characters, so why don't we?

- Le Messor
"If you ever teach a yodelling class, probably the hardest thing is to keep the students from just trying to yodel right off. You see, we build to that."
~ Jack Handey

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Seven

"The title met with middling success and was cancelled after 36 issues, in June 1998, after which Claremont returned to Marvel." - Geez, I'd almost KILL somebody for 36 straight issues of Alpha Flight! And that was considered a 'middling success'?!? Geez, I guess that everything after Volume 1 has been just a speck in a gnat's eye, eh?


By the way, this story actually sounds interesting to me...thanks for the tip, I might check it out in the future (or in the past, depending upon which direction my radium-powered cuisinart-capacitor takes me!).

And i see it was 36 issues, plus two annuals! Sweet!

[Le Messor]

"The title met with middling success and was cancelled after 36 issues, in June 1998, after which Claremont returned to Marvel." - Geez, I'd almost KILL somebody for 36 straight issues of Alpha Flight! And that was considered a 'middling success'?!? Geez, I guess that everything after Volume 1 has been just a speck in a gnat's eye, eh?

Well, things have changed. And it was a 90s title, though don't take that the wrong way... Oddly, I remember it being longer.
I had a letter published somewhere in all that, so if you get the floppies, look for it!

By the way, this story actually sounds interesting to me...thanks for the tip, I might check it out in the future (or in the past, depending upon which direction my radium-powered cuisinart-capacitor takes me!).

radium? Are you telling me this sucker's nuclear?!?

- Le Messor
"If you fool around with something long enough, it will eventually break."

[Flightpath07]

radium? Are you telling me this sucker's nuclear?!?

I can't give you a tab unless you order something!

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I'll probably regret this, but the Mantlo-version of Alpha Flight is nearly impossible to reconcile with the Byrne-version of Alpha Flight. Unfortunately, the Mantlo era lasted a whole lot longer than the Byrne era, and during the Mantlo period, the foundation of Alpha Flight was undermined.

Not destroyed, which may have been better...undermined. Completely.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's taken years to get the team/comic back to near what it was.

And, no offense intended, others besides Claremont and Byrne have been able to do it [Chaos War: Alpha Flight through volume 4). Now, if a story/storyline can hold and build a readership as it goes on----

[Le Messor]

I'll probably regret this, but the Mantlo-version of Alpha Flight is nearly impossible to reconcile with the Byrne-version of Alpha Flight. Unfortunately, the Mantlo era lasted a whole lot longer than the Byrne era, and during the Mantlo period, the foundation of Alpha Flight was undermined.

What part are you expecting to regret?
Few would argue with you about that - though we have heard from people on this forum who liked Mantlo, even preferred him to Byrne. Most don't, though.

Not destroyed, which may have been better...undermined. Completely.

Please clarify the distinction?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's taken years to get the team/comic back to near what it was.

If by that you mean getting the original characters back together, you're right - though, really, it didn't need to.

And, no offense intended, others besides Claremont and Byrne have been able to do it [Chaos War: Alpha Flight through volume 4). Now, if a story/storyline can hold and build a readership as it goes on----

Hmm... Well, when I hope for someone like Byrne or Claremont from the mid-80s will come up through time and start writing the team, I'm thinking about who has done the best job of writing them in my experience. Somebody who can capture the spirit of what made the team so compelling for me in the first place, somebody who can write a team I'll fall in love with all over again - not just figure out what list of characters were in the book in '83 and bring them back together.
There aren't many names I'll think of when I think about that (Louise Simonson? James Hudnall? Peter David?), and fewer have proved themselves (I don't think PAD has ever written AF) but that doesn't mean it's a comprehensive list, or even that I think it is. There's probably somebody I've never heard of who could do a better job - like the artist whose work started this thread. Before this thread started, I mean.

- Le Messor
"If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop diggin'."

[Garry/Al-Fan]

As mentioned somewhere else (can't remember where), a Mantlo issue of Alpha Flight is someone's very first comic. A Mantlo issue of Alpha Flight is someone's favorite comic, as hard as it is for me to imagine.

But trying to reconcile Byrne's Judd-who-was-nearly-evicerated with Mantlo's Judd-who-is-really-7 feet tall-and-has-a-Sorcerer-living-inside-him is nearly impossible. Trying to reconcile the Mantlo/Ross interpretation of The Avengers with the Stern/J. Buscema interpretation of the very same group (AF# 39 & 40) is difficult.
Reconciling the establishment that the Coronet of Enchantment (presumably) was only meant to be worn by "The Talisman" with Michael's prolonged wearing of it is hard to believe.

I'm not sure that I will feel exactly what I felt when I was reading comics in the 80's, but I do know that there are people who are still interested in telling stories with a beginning, middle, and end and that have well-rounded characters who behave in plausible ways.

I cannot say that about the Mantlo era. I could say that about the Byrne era.

And James Hudnall, Fabian Nicenza, and Simon Furman had the unenviable task of cleaning up a mess not of their own making.