I remember Marvel when it was......

[DaVeO]

I remember Marvel when it was the House of Ideas. When they were considered the rebel to DC/Warner's establishment. I remember when Uncanny X-Men and Avengers were my first two titles I ever put on a pull 'n hold file at a comic shop in Scarborough, ON. Then came Alpha Flight, Transformers, G.I.Joe, Micronauts, New Mutants, West Coast Avengers, the list goes on and on. Here was a company that showed us the most amazing stories taking place were in "our" world.
I remember when an event occurred like Secret Wars or the Mutant Massacre or Avengers Under Siege it was big because the story was exciting. Not because of 101 tie-ins or that it promised to change the face of the universe year-after-year-after-year.

I remember when Marvel had integrity, spirit, identity and took risks. Since the early nineties I've seen all of this slip away little by little from my once fave comic publisher. More and more it was about the buck, the fans were only consumers and no longer had a face. 20k fans reading a comic is apparently not enough to appease their shareholders or the House of Mouse? that's too bad.
No longer the House of Ideas it's more of the House of Cloned Franchises. Where is my Alpha Flight? My Atlas? My Captain Britain? No, they aren't X-men, Avengers or Hulks. I'm sorry if they don't rack in as much as those books. Is it really fair to expect them to?

I remember when Marvel gave me a diverse line-up of comics to choose from.

But I'm starting to forget.

[EccentricSage]

I agree with all of the above and couldn't say it better.

Not only that, but they are so formulaic now that any character that doesn't fit a small set of popular super hero molds are cannon fodder that writers can ignore continuity of, kill off, or change completely on a whim without any editorial efforts to keep the MU consistent, much less to protect the diversity and integrity of past writers and artist's creations. It's pathetic.

Even if I see something I'm excited about, my first instinct is suspicion. If a book picks up a character I like they are usually unrecognizable, out of character, abused the whole story through, or killed off for cheap 'shock' value... (I'm not just talking about Wildchild, but seriously, that guy couldn't catch a break! He got all of the above in that order!) I mean really, does it actually shock anyone anymore when Marvel slaughters any character who's not on their A list? Pft.

I shouldn't have let myself indulge in some glimmer of hope when Alpha Flight was properly re-formed.

[Phil]

The problem is that we're all adults now.

We started reading comics as children/teenagers and have continued to do so.
That means that the comics industry is now aimed at the adults who have continued to read, rather than the children that once read.
It's written, drawn, edited by the adults who read comics as children.

The only way to get back to that childhood innocence is for adults to stop reading comics.
For children who don't care about production values to read bright, happy, simple comics.

It's become a cutthroat adult business and that can't be blamed on Marvel.
Every major publisher is in a similar boat.

Basic wages have increased, production & distribution costs have soared, general inflation has set in.
A single comic will have costs for Writer(s), Penciller, Inker, Colorist, Letterer, Assistant Editor, Editor, Printer, Distributor, Store plus tax.
That's a massive cost to spread over one 22 page monthly item.
And money has to be available in order to finance issue production before the issue even hits store shelves, yet alone before the company receives money back, yet alone before the creators get paid.

And to touch on digital comics; that's not going to fix a whole lot, at least not yet.
Yes they'll cut out the printing and distribution costs (the store costs will equate roughly to digital store costs), but the price still won't work.
The reason iTunes works so well is that it's cheaper than buying a cd, and it's quicker & easier than an illegal download.
The ebook market is almost at a similar state.
Digital comics are nowhere near at the same point; simply because it's not economical to release a comic in digital form on the same day for a third of the price as print comic; simply because of the amount of people involved in making the comic that need paying, as outlined above.

And yes, the state we're in is due to the big speculator crash of the 90's which we look deemed to repeat again, quite soon by the way the industry is going.

I genuinely fear for the future of comics.

[Flightpath07]

I shouldn't have let myself indulge in some glimmer of hope when Alpha Flight was properly re-formed.

I was a cautious fan. Excited, but waiting for the other shoe to drop.

When it dropped, it was a cloven hoof that was beneath the shoe, in my opinion.

We didn't just get our favourite comic cancelled, again. We got outright lied to. Again.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me thrice, you must be Marvel.

[DaVeO]

I understand business is business, but it's how it is conducted that rubs me raw lately with Marvel. Not to mention how they are treating their creators. "Oh, you have an ongoing now so make plans, we're really behind you this time...honest!"

2 months later...

"Guess what! Those plans you were making? I'm hope they don't include using Alpha Flight. Yeah, we know we said ongoing but that was just so we could get in Canada's good graces, they have polar bears y'know!"

"DIE MARVEL EXECUTIVE SCUM!" ~Marrina's response to the cancellation of Alpha Flight.

I jest of course but you get my meaning. I don't dig it when a company lies to me. If they weren't going to get behind the series and at least give twenty-five issues or so then the announcement should never have been made for an ongoing. It was cruel, and the fact no one from Marvel addressed this, we had to read about it from the solicits, shows just how much they "care" about the fans. Does anyone honestly believe that Disney/Marvel could not afford to give AF more issues so when Marvel cancelled it they wouldn't look like such douche bags? Or Heaven Forbid it had the chance to gain more readers?

Ok, this is turning into a rant and it wasn't supposed to be. I guess what I'm saying is the Marvel I cared about is 90% gone. DC and indies still have the variety I look for in comics and so far I haven't been burned (or burned repeatedly) by following them.

[Alpha Rider]

The problom of comic books is that it has too much competition with other stuff. When Marvel went public back in '88 I had a feeling that my favoret company just sold their soul to the Devil himself. The books cost too much. The artest and writters get paid too much. Countless of stupid cross overs and marketing ploys. Catiering to the "collectors" have all brought the companies down. Marvel and DC are not indipentently owned any more they have to show a proffet to their sharholders.

Back in the old days they would try and fix the book before giving it the axe. They only had about 20 titles back then, but they were damn good. Now they have 50 title and most of it is garbage. Now new ideas. The tallent pool is too watered down.

[Phil]

If they weren't going to get behind the series and at least give twenty-five issues or so then the announcement should never have been made for an ongoing.

That, I totally agree with.

Does anyone honestly believe that Disney/Marvel could not afford to give AF more issues so when Marvel cancelled it they wouldn't look like such douche bags?

I'm with Marvel on that one, I'm afraid; the book was haemorrhaging readers.

Or Heaven Forbid it had the chance to gain more readers?

Extremely unlikely in this day and age.

Ok, this is turning into a rant and it wasn't supposed to be. I guess what I'm saying is the Marvel I cared about is 90% gone. DC and indies still have the variety I look for in comics and so far I haven't been burned (or burned repeatedly) by following them.

Feel free to rant, seriously.

[EccentricSage]

The problom of comic books is that it has too much competition with other stuff. When Marvel went public back in '88 I had a feeling that my favoret company just sold their soul to the Devil himself. The books cost too much. The artest and writters get paid too much. Countless of stupid cross overs and marketing ploys. Catiering to the "collectors" have all brought the companies down. Marvel and DC are not indipentently owned any more they have to show a proffet to their sharholders.

Back in the old days they would try and fix the book before giving it the axe. They only had about 20 titles back then, but they were damn good. Now they have 50 title and most of it is garbage. Now new ideas. The tallent pool is too watered down.

This. A thousand times this.

Comics were so good well into the 80's. My god, X-Factor in the 80's was amazing. The books still had heart back then. Yeah, the creators and their core fan base had matured, but they still remembered why they were in it! So we saw stories that dealt with serious problems people face in the real world, but without all this hopelessness and gore that comic books seem to be about now. I don't think the problem is that comics have grown too mature. I think the problem is that comics have grown too cynical and base. And being overly base to shocks people is pretty much the opposite of maturity, IMHO.

I guess there is no hope now that comics are at the mercy of speculators. As with most problems in the industry, the ****ing stock market is at the heart of the problem. Greed and raw numbers are what's in control now.


"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me thrice, you must be Marvel."
Flightpath, I just might quote you for my new sig, if you don't use it yourself.

[Flightpath07]

Flightpath, I just might quote you for my new sig, if you don't use it yourself.

Welcome to it, ES - you might just be my new consumer demographic, after all! lol.

[Le Messor]

Comics were so good well into the 80's. My god, X-Factor in the 80's was amazing. The books still had heart back then. Yeah, the creators and their core fan base had matured, but they still remembered why they were in it! So we saw stories that dealt with serious problems people face in the real world, but without all this hopelessness and gore that comic books seem to be about now. I don't think the problem is that comics have grown too mature. I think the problem is that comics have grown too cynical and base. And being overly base to shocks people is pretty much the opposite of maturity, IMHO.

This. A thousand times this.

(Right back atcha!)

I remember the days of good vs. evil, rather than evil vs. slightly less evil; or good vs. uh, something?

- LM

[Phil]

But is that because the days of good vs evil were when you were younger and had read less comics, so storylines were more black & white than grey and more original?

Just playing devil's advocate for a second.

[EccentricSage]

Personally I like there being shades of gray and more grown up issues dealt with in comics... There was a lot of that in the late 80's and early 90's. I just think too often since the mass cancellations in the late 90s, writers are resorting to exploiting shock value and baser human desires to up sales instead of good storytelling. Mind you, I've backed away from Marvel with my hands up since Weapon X, but from what I've looked up about Loeb's **** Wolverine story and other goings on in the main MU, the glorified sneering villain trend and 'lets abuse the good guys because that's edgy' trend is still going strong. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Jason Eberly]

But is that because the days of good vs evil were when you were younger and had read less comics, so storylines were more black & white than grey and more original?

Just playing devil's advocate for a second.

I would say no, from my personal experience. I am constantly reading my comics (going through Thor at the moment), and very often it is the same. The comics prior to roughly the early-mid 90's have a very different feel in tone than those afterward. Those pre-Image era comics truly feel "all ages". I know today "all ages" is an adage for "kiddie book", but then it seemed that it was an adage for "kids can enjoy it, but so can adults". Sure, I may get a reference or a joke now that flew over my head in 1983, but I still get that same sense of not being a demographic, but a fan.

I got the feeling more of "we want to earn your business" from comics (Marvel, especially), than "we expect your business" feeling I get today.

Maybe it's time for an "Occupy Marvel" movement?

"We are the 10% of your fan base that is left!!"

[batman_von_gein]

i remember when marvel was better then dc. batman and superman was cool but the xmen, xforce, fantastic four, spiderman, and the rest of marvel in the 80's were awesome. it just seems like marvel has given up on new ideas. they like to combine people into new teams but it seems like they have to have spiderman, wolverine, or the xmen name in it for people to buy. i like new and original things and thats why i attached to alpha flight so quickly. i dont want a comic called the new avengers when all you really did was put popular people on the team. new avengers to me would be capt america and maybe iron man with an entirely new team of younger heroes. comics are just like the movie industry. instead of new ideas they remake classics. new comics might have a shot to make it if there wasn't 20 xmen and 15 spiderman spin offs.

[Flightpath07]

FlightPath07 Don't you feel all important now?

I'd prefer Alpha Flight, but I'll take that, sure! lol