Good article on saving the industry

[Le Messor]

I think that people forget that comic books were always aimed at kids and teenagers.

With apologies to FP's next post, did you mean 'were' or 'weren't' here? (The rest of your post implies 'weren't'.)
(And it'd make a better counter to my post that way.)

I'll alter my point slightly, then, based on a 'weren't' interpretation:
Comics written to be readable by kids are what got me into the hobby.
They're also the ones that appeal to me. 'Adult' superhero comics do not. They feel like they're superhero comics for and by people who hate superheroes; as somebody who's reading superheroes, I don't hate them.

That's why the 70's / 80's are my favourite period; they balance between the clumsiness and oversimplification of the 60's, the griminess of the 90's and the over'realism' and excessive seriousness of the 00's - now.
They're sophisticated, but still fun; they're about character but still heroic... etc...

(This is, of course, a generalisation. Exceptions of all kinds exist.)

'I'll abuse the characters all I want, fans of those characters will still buy the books'. People like these pretty quickly drive fans like myself away.

But, *sigh*, know fans like myself all too well...

- Le Messor
"What's the deal with Manny the manager? If I ask him really nicely do you think he'd let me write a children's book called that?"
~ Buffy

[Alpha Rider]

I think it was a bit of everything. So many useless cross over that ment nothing. (Rise of the Midnight Son, Executioner Song, Infinit I, II, III, or what ever they were called) How many of the Infinite titles did you buy just to see AF?

The prices of the books had got so expencive, I know someone who collected from the early 60's and had stoped by the time the early 90's came by because of cost. He has a good job working at Pitny Bowes and couldn't afford to by all the titles as he did in the past, and this is a gut who has all the titles by Marvel and DC from 1960-1990. He would still collect if the price was right.

Taking the books out of the cornner stores was stupid. The whinning ***** ass "collectors" wanted a direct sales from the shops not the cornner store because it may ruin the vale of the book. These "Collectors" were the ones that really ruin the industry, from the said above to having the paper changed from news print or cold press to a high glossy that we have today.

There were too many titles that were printed back in the 90's Marvel had something like 60 monthly titles. where as in 1983 they only had 18- 22 titles.

Marvel and DC going public in the stock market,ment they had to show a profet to the shareholders.

Marketing divisions in the companies were also ruining the bizz. They destroyed tons of titles. I.E. the 90's Ghost Rider almost didn't happen. First they wanted a 4 part mini, the they didn't know how to market it so they wanted a graphic novel, "No wait, that market is dead." so on and so on. Basiclly they didn't believe in the title and were going to pull the plug on it until Tom DeFalco said "No it's good enough to be it's own series." They gave the writter (Howard Mackie) total control over the book for 2 years, and when re-reading those issuse, it reminds me of Byrne's AF run. Then after 2 years the book was so succsessful that's when marketing got involed and spoiled everthing.

People would still buy the books if the price was right. about 8 or 9 years ago DC did a 99 cent Bat Man issue and it out sold everthing, over 600, 000 copies.

[Le Messor]

How many of the Infinite titles did you buy just to see AF?

(... I'm still getting them...)

The type of "Collectors" you're talking about are called Speculators; and I pretty much agree with all the points in your post. That I know anything about.

- Le Messor
"SAVE A TREE: Eat a beaver"

[Flightpath07]

"SAVE A TREE: Eat a beaver"

Uh...that would be illegal here in Canada.

[EccentricSage]

By 'infinite' titles, do we mean those god-awful infinity crusade/war cross-overs and special issues? I hated those. I remember picking up one because of the Alpha appearance, and the whole book was just a bunch of super powered characters standing around an observation deck scratching their heads, pretty much. Disgraceful.

If it's something that happened later than the mid-90's, then I missed it completely.

Yeah, the 90's marketing madness ruined Marvel for me, too. There were so many good series that were cancelled after long runs for no reason... tons of **** art on expensive glossy paper, and then they followed up by very suddenly going all dark and grim and anti-hero, and everyone switched from costumes to boring motocross leather suits because of the ****ty X-Men movies.

And nowadays their brilliant idea is to see how many places Wolverine can be in at once, e__e You can see why I just gave up completely.


Also, the only comic book shop in town closed down, and I don't have a car. The hobby shop stopped carrying comics because they said it was too much hassle and not profitable. I was getting the impression comic companies were starting to make their bottom line better on the backs of the shops that sell their books. If you put the only businesses that sell your merch out of business, how the hell do you stay profitable?

*edit*

Also, speculators and short-sellers should just be rounded up and culled, in my opinion. Look at what they do to the economy. The things they do are illegal for anyone who's not protected by working for the corrupt investment banks.

[Alpha Rider]

"SAVE A TREE: Eat a beaver"

Uh...that would be illegal here in Canada.

Depends on what kind of beaver, eh.

[Alpha Rider]

After the comic crash of 94/95 2/3rds of comic shops have closed down in America. You've already taken the books out of the cornner store, jacked up the prices, and now all the comic shops and hobby stores are gone.

What comic book shop face is the price of square footage and inventory. When they have such a high inventory that they can't move, it costs them money. DO you keep a good healthy catalog of back issues or do you reducse it down to over the past few years? When I started collecting my AF and GR back issues (to fill in the holes around 8 the back issues were cheep. I got 18 books for under $11. Now because of the high markup in a cuurent book price you are paying at least $5-$6 per back issue. No kid is going to spend that kind of money if he/she wants to get the whole run of a Dare Devil, or New Warriors, or whatever.

Most shops are not going to keep a huge back issuse catolog if they can't move them. In Toronto, there is a shop called the Dragon Lady and they have been around for years and they have a really good selection of back issues but they have these ridiculus sales like 50% off any book under $10 and 30% off books over $10. Marvel and DC are only intrested in the licinceing of there properties because that's where the big money is.

The only real way to save the biz is to reduce the cost of the book, and put them back into cornner stores. I know, I sound like a broken record. If kids can afford the books they'll buy them. From 1970 a book was 20 cents, and 20 years later the price had jumped up to almost $2. This should have been the cap of comic books, no higher than this, but greed got the best of them.

[EccentricSage]

I don't think those sales are ridiculous though. That's a standard practice to move back stock or over stock in pretty much any retail establishment. The only problem is that I got the impression that the shops aren't getting a big enough cut of the profits to begin with, so at the point where they are having huge sales, they're going to just be trying to make back losses. I remember one of the workers at the little shop I used to frequent complaining about it.

If the big comic book companies continue to destroy their own market, the licensing deals will eventually dry up. Nobody is going to care anymore.

I understand why the glossy fancy books exist, but maybe those should be limited edition and cheaper cold press should be sold cheap through corner stores, news stands, and hobby shops again, with reasonable profit margins for the shops, of course. Book stores are perfectly capable of selling comic books, but won't usually right now because the profit margin does not even make it worth the space on their periodical section. Why are magazines of all things still doing better than comic books, when much of the printed news is made obsolete by bloggers, tutorials, and online news? An entertainment industry that focuses on art and fan loyalty seems like it SHOULD do better than magazines, especially since the movies are making super heroes seem more accessible and less silly to the mainstream whom used to view comic book fans as childish outcasts. Comic book characters are beloved pop culture icons nowadays, with big name celebrities clamoring to play them. Why on earth can't comic book companies grow their core fan base anymore? It's just so weird.

[Flightpath07]

If the big comic book companies continue to destroy their own market, the licensing deals will eventually dry up. Nobody is going to care anymore.

Here, here! Or maybe that should be, Hear, Hear!

I understand why the glossy fancy books exist, but maybe those should be limited edition and cheaper cold press should be sold cheap through corner stores, news stands, and hobby shops again, with reasonable profit margins for the shops, of course.

In agreeance with this.

An entertainment industry that focuses on art and fan loyalty seems like it SHOULD do better than magazines, especially since the movies are making super heroes seem more accessible and less silly to the mainstream whom used to view comic book fans as childish outcasts. Comic book characters are beloved pop culture icons nowadays, with big name celebrities clamoring to play them. Why on earth can't comic book companies grow their core fan base anymore? It's just so weird.

I see your "weird", and I raise you a "Pathetic". It's pathetic, it really is.

Basically, they have royally screwed over all the true fans of comic books, in order to reach movie fans. "Robbing Peter to pay Paul", as the saying goes. When the well goes dry in the movies, which one day it will (all things in entertainment are cyclical), who will support these companies in their gross mismanagement of themselves? There will be nobody left.

It's just greed, mixed with stupidity. Making the fast buck over here with our left hand, never mind that it will doom the industry; as long as they get their cut of the profits now (from movies, etc), they don't care.

[Le Messor]

If kids can afford the books they'll buy them.

Assuming they're created in a way that appeals to kids, and that their parents won't burn them as soon as they see the contents, that is.

- Le Messor
"I'd love to, but I promised to help a friend fold road maps."

[Alpha Rider]

I don't think those sales are ridiculous though. That's a standard practice to move back stock or over stock in pretty much any retail establishment. The only problem is that I got the impression that the shops aren't getting a big enough cut of the profits to begin with, so at the point where they are having huge sales, they're going to just be trying to make back losses. I remember one of the workers at the little shop I used to frequent complaining about it.

If the big comic book companies continue to destroy their own market, the licensing deals will eventually dry up. Nobody is going to care anymore.

I understand why the glossy fancy books exist, but maybe those should be limited edition and cheaper cold press should be sold cheap through corner stores, news stands, and hobby shops again, with reasonable profit margins for the shops, of course. Book stores are perfectly capable of selling comic books, but won't usually right now because the profit margin does not even make it worth the space on their periodical section. Why are magazines of all things still doing better than comic books, when much of the printed news is made obsolete by bloggers, tutorials, and online news? An entertainment industry that focuses on art and fan loyalty seems like it SHOULD do better than magazines, especially since the movies are making super heroes seem more accessible and less silly to the mainstream whom used to view comic book fans as childish outcasts. Comic book characters are beloved pop culture icons nowadays, with big name celebrities clamoring to play them. Why on earth can't comic book companies grow their core fan base anymore? It's just so weird.

I ment this in a good way. Ridiculusly good. The thing is this sale dosen't seem to end. I don't go to the Dragon Lady all to often, but when I do this "sale" is still on. In the past they never had sales like this or had trouble moving inventory. I guess it's just a sign of the times.

[Alpha Rider]

That's the other thing. Comic books are a reflection of society, over the past 30 odd some years I've been collecting, I've seen the change from suttle sexuality to almost rated R for what reason? The violence in comics had gone further, and once again for no good reason. Shock value can only go so far. When Image first started to publish they never used the CCA, then Marvel and DC fallowed as well. If the Code was brought back and stream line books for everyone, then you might get somewhere. We all grew up with the same books as the adults were buying back then, what was wrong with the code now? Why did they have to make their own rating system? DC had a good idea with seperating it's Vertigo line from it's mainstream DC line, but for the most part the sex and violence in comics is not nessesary.

[Flightpath07]

With apologies to FP's next post

Accepted, of course!

Assuming they're created in a way that appeals to kids, and that their parents won't burn them as soon as they see the contents, that is.

True! Mind you, I still assume that most parents could care less. But that's another story.

over the past 30 odd some years I've been collecting, I've seen the change from suttle sexuality to almost rated R for what reason? The violence in comics had gone further, and once again for no good reason. Shock value can only go so far.

Agreed. But again, it is a question of who they are trying to sell comics to; adults. Sorry, but there is no strong or long-term future in that.

DC had a good idea with seperating it's Vertigo line from it's mainstream DC line, but for the most part the sex and violence in comics is not nessesary.

Agree, and agree.

by the way, i am one of those strange adults who keeps a close eye on Marvel's "Marvel Adventures" line of kids comics. I have a few of them, and think they are hilarious (in a good way, too)! Anytime i hear that Alpha or Tigra (my second-fave Marvel character, next to Wild Child) are making appearances, I rush to pick them up.

[Alpha Rider]

I'm trying to find some of those Mini Marvels. I want to see if Ghost Rider ever made an apperance in there.

[Le Messor]

Agreed. But again, it is a question of who they are trying to sell comics to; adults.

Actually, added sex and violence appeal more to kids (children or teenagers) who want to think they're reading adult stuff than actual adults.
I'm not making any guesses on whether Marvel or DC are doing it on purpose, either.

- Le Messor
"I'd like to be home, with my monkey, and my dog."
~ Roger Waters