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Thread: #2 spoiler-ful thread

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by suzene View Post
    Well, first I'm going to give the writing team the benefit of the doubt and assume that the editorial decree went deeper than "You can't have someone in a habit and wimple tied up in this scene" and excise religion from the equation completely. Hence, no mention of nuns or God or faith or sin, no "sister" anything. We do know that they can mention there was abuse going on at the orphanage itself, due to the first page of the scene. So:

    - Old lady tied to chair. "Look, it's Anne [Insert Very French Last Name Here], head of the orphanage. She beat you until you stopped trying to be good for its own sake, until you stopped being good to avoid fresh pain, until you just accepted that you were worth nothing and asked for beatings to prove you were good. Would you like to show her how that feels?" Any casual reader bypasses the religious connections completely, but the long-time readers know the full origin story.
    Maybe, but comes off pretty weak if you cut out the religious aspect of it. Much of her suffering was due to her believing that she was sinning, which was enforced by the nuns who are "god's representatives" on Earth. In a child's mind their authority is above question. "Using a sister without using a sister" might be passable for new readers, but for older fans it comes across as pretty lame, and messing with continuity.

    Quote Originally Posted by suzene View Post
    - Old man tied to chair. "Look, it's your social worker. You told him about the orphanage -- the beatings/the dark/the hungry nights crying alone, etc. You begged and pleaded to be taken somewhere else, anywhere else, but he never believed you/did nothing. You have the power now. Would you like to hear him beg, Jeanne-Marie?" Nuns? What nuns? There were nuns?
    Comes off pretty weak again as he wasn't the one who directly inflicted the pain. I can't see Aurora turning to the dark side to get even with someone not directly involved with the abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by suzene View Post
    - Walter tied to a chair. "Look, Jeanne-Marie, it's the man who took advantage of you again and again with the help of that trollop..." Because if you feel that exploring sexual trauma is just the way to go wrt Jeanne-Marie, that she felt violated by what Walter and Aurora did to her -- even once Walter knew about her DID -- isn't even subtext, it's explicit on the page and the implications of its effect on Jeanne-Marie's psyche have never been touched on.
    They can't use Walter as he'd be getting the brainwashing treatment too. Plus, Aurora was the personality that wanted, and pursued the relationship with him, while the Jeanne-Marie personality, though disliking Walter, didn't hate him, and would be too moral to seek revenge, especially on someone who is helpless.

    Sorry, I just don't see the sexual abuse version to be so awful that it can't be used. Besides, it would be far more likely to explain why her mind split along sexual lines; her Aurora personality being promiscuous while the Jeanne-Marie personality is prudish.

  2. #47
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    In a slightly different line of thinking:
    So you assume if they used Walter, he'd actually be in the room? Not just an illusion?

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Messor View Post
    You and me agreeing on something?
    Any kind of abuse but sexual, as Suzene has outlined? - more to the point, physical / mental abuse.
    Adding that specific type is just an extra curveball that's not necessary for her origin.
    I agree it's not necessary, except that Marvel is taking out any mention of the aspect of her origin that had the greatest impact on her young mind: her religious beliefs. While a child might question an adult, few would question a religious authority. Hell, even many adults won't question a minister, imam, priest, nun, etc. And as I said above, the sexual abuse take on her origin is not so unimaginably awful as a plot device, that it can't be used if they have to take out the religious aspect which was an important part of it. Her mind broke because she couldn't come to terms with the idea that god would give her powers, only to have his representatives call her a liar, and a sinner before punishing her.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Messor View Post
    In a slightly different line of thinking:
    So you assume if they used Walter, he'd actually be in the room? Not just an illusion?
    Read the rest of my post on that.

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    In the rest of your post, you say that they can't use Walter because he'd be getting brainwashed too - which led me to ask if you assumed they'd need him in the room with JM to use him against her.
    Is that your take on it?

    I figure they're only using holographic (or something) versions of whoever they're using - so they could be brainwashing JM in one room one way, and at the same time brainwashing Walt in another room another way, and giving Puck a rinse and spray in another room.

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  6. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by suzene View Post
    Their theory with Aurora seems to be that her heart's desire is to be revenged on those who hurt her when she was young and helpless.
    Thinking about it, it may not be the case.
    They're not using everyone's hearts desires per se, else Heather & Mac would be a happy family with their child in her head.
    My take on the current Aurora situation is that as Jeanne-Marie the first time she suffered major mental trauma/abuse at the hands of the nuns it created the Aurora personality, so Unity are trying to create a greater trauma in order to create a new even more dysfunctional personality, one rooted in hatred rather than fear.
    In order to create that personality, brainwashing her in order to believe she'd been physically abused as well as mentally (be it by nuns originally or the caretaker after editorial) could well create that personality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legerd
    They can't use Walter as he'd be getting the brainwashing treatment too.
    I disagree as I'm pretty sure Talisman isn't actually there.
    Using Walter as a sexual tormentor to turn JM/Aurora/Unknown personality against AF would have been an interesting choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legerd
    While a child might question an adult, few would question a religious authority.
    Hmm, I was the other way round.
    In my head my parents conceived me whereas a religious authority was a virtual stranger as long as I stayed within the guidelines.
    But maybe that's just me.

    Quote Originally Posted by suzene
    I don't believe Aurora is supposed to be a factor at the moment
    That's how I read it too.

  7. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    Thinking about it, it may not be the case.
    They're not using everyone's hearts desires per se, else Heather & Mac would be a happy family with their child in her head.
    Assuming deep down that Heather's not tired of having a husband who dies on her about once a year. The geese migrate north again, the sugar maples run high with sap, and Mac needs a new tombstone...

    Seriously, though, good point. Hard to know how to read it without knowing whether Heather got her brains scrambled before she went turncoat. Because if she did, then it seems that the Unity process works via giving the subject a taste of what they want most, and making them believe Cody's people can deliver -- she did seem to think Mac would eventually fall in. But if this is all Heather...

    My take on the current Aurora situation is that as Jeanne-Marie the first time she suffered major mental trauma/abuse at the hands of the nuns it created the Aurora personality, so Unity are trying to create a greater trauma in order to create a new even more dysfunctional personality, one rooted in hatred rather than fear.
    That seems a bit like planning to starve a lion, then stick your head in its mouth, though. Speedsters are right up there with teleporters and mentalists on the list of powers that are hard to contain, and they're already getting a taste of how much trouble just an annoyed one can cause. It seems like they'd be wanting to aim for integration with a shift in loyalty over additional fractures.

  8. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by suzene View Post
    Assuming deep down that Heather's not tired of having a husband who dies on her about once a year. The geese migrate north again, the sugar maples run high with sap, and Mac needs a new tombstone...
    Am stifling laughter at work now =D>

    Quote Originally Posted by suzene View Post
    That seems a bit like planning to starve a lion, then stick your head in its mouth, though. Speedsters are right up there with teleporters and mentalists on the list of powers that are hard to contain, and they're already getting a taste of how much trouble just an annoyed one can cause. It seems like they'd be wanting to aim for integration with a shift in loyalty over additional fractures.
    And that'd be where Persuasion comes into play....?
    Last edited by Phil; 07-21-2011 at 06:30 AM.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    I disagree as I'm pretty sure Talisman isn't actually there.
    Using Walter as a sexual tormentor to turn JM/Aurora/Unknown personality against AF would have been an interesting choice.
    Perhaps, but it wouldn't have made much sense for her to hold that much loathing for him. She has been shown to be getting tired of his flirting, but not to the point of wanting to torture him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    Hmm, I was the other way round. In my head my parents conceived me whereas a religious authority was a virtual stranger as long as I stayed within the guidelines.
    But maybe that's just me.
    Parents don't have the kind of ultimate authority religious figures do. They speak for god on Earth, no one has higher authority in the mind of someone who is deeply religious. And Jeanne-Marie was extremely religious at that time.

  10. #55

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    I think that we have to accept that this scenario is now out there and no matter what side you find yourself, it is still at the end of the day a comic. I would hope that no matter how emotive a subject may be, we are all able to realise when it may be taking us to a place we don't need to go. Maybe a step back and reread before we hit that reply button would be in order?
    Del

    Driftwood: Well, I got about a foot and a half. Now, it says, uh, "The party of the second part shall be known in this contract as the party of the second part."
    Fiorello: Well, I don't know about that...
    Driftwood: Now what's the matter?
    Fiorello: I no like-a the second party, either.
    Driftwood: Well, you should've come to the first party. We didn't get home 'til around four in the morning... I was blind for three days!

  11. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legerd View Post
    Perhaps, but it wouldn't have made much sense for her to hold that much loathing for him. She has been shown to be getting tired of his flirting, but not to the point of wanting to torture him.
    If it actually happened, no.
    My point was that if they brainwash her to believe Walter sexually abused her before she joined AF.

    Parents don't have the kind of ultimate authority religious figures do. They speak for god on Earth, no one has higher authority in the mind of someone who is deeply religious.
    It all depends on the religious figure involved.
    For me, the fifth commandment gives my parents that authority and I'm deeply religious.
    But you said adult rather than parent specifically and you're bringing it back to JM who never knew hers, so we'll just leave my opinon and go back to the fictional world.

  12. #57

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    Right;

    Due to PM's from members regarding tension within this thread, a few posts have been moved over to the real world section of the site here.
    Not against anyone in particular and not because of anyone in particular.

    This has been an Admin decision based upon both keeping the peace AND trying to reflect the fact that this is a fair site for level minded people, open to other peoples opinions and general discussion without witchhunt.
    Everyone has a right to their opinion and a freedom of speech.

    If you want to make anyone a figure of hatred for the decision, feel free to fill my inbox with it as I'm an ocean away.

    The posts that have been kept here are relevant to the subject and you may continue to discuss the reprocussions towards Jeanne-Marie here as long as we're keeping it civil and that members are dissecting the impact it has upon the character, because whether people like it or not sexual abuse HAS been implied. The majority of us are adults here, and the comic is using a real-world scenario within it that shouldn't be shyed away from.
    Discussing JM's abuse and the larger context it brings to you as a reader, be it male or female, religious or not is welcomed as long as it relates to the (comic)issue at hand.

    The other thread will be kept open for general discussion as long as it doesn't continue to get personal to member versus member.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    If it actually happened, no.
    My point was that if they brainwash her to believe Walter sexually abused her before she joined AF.
    Okay, I see what you mean. Ah, but how would she react to serving on the same team (assuming he gets brainwashed onto the team as well) with the guy she's been brainwashed to hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    It all depends on the religious figure involved.
    For me, the fifth commandment gives my parents that authority and I'm deeply religious.
    But you said adult rather than parent specifically and you're bringing it back to JM who never knew hers, so we'll just leave my opinon and go back to the fictional world.
    I'm looking at it from how friends of mine (who are from Quebec), as well as news shows I've watched on the subject, describe just how powerful the church's hold is on the average Quebecois, assuming that Byrne's take on it was along those lines.

  14. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legerd View Post
    Okay, I see what you mean. Ah, but how would she react to serving on the same team (assuming he gets brainwashed onto the team as well) with the guy she's been brainwashed to hate?
    I suppose I am basing my thoughts on the variant to #4 and presuming the shadowy figure in Alpha Strike is Aurora.

    I'm looking at it from how friends of mine (who are from Quebec), as well as news shows I've watched on the subject, describe just how powerful the church's hold is on the average Quebecois, assuming that Byrne's take on it was along those lines.
    Being neither Canadian nor Catholic I suppose I wouldn't know.
    No harm done.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    I suppose I am basing my thoughts on the variant to #4 and presuming the shadowy figure in Alpha Strike is Aurora.
    I think it's her too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    Being neither Canadian nor Catholic I suppose I wouldn't know.
    No harm done.
    No harm, no foul. I like my comics to be based as much on the real world as possible (science, psychology, etc.) for the sake of logical story progression, and continuity. For that reason I try to connect the two in ways to help me make sense of the plots. Maybe that'll help explain why I tenaciously hold onto an idea?

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