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Thread: Chaos War #5 - Spoilers within

  1. #31

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    Well maybe more will be explained in the Chaos War Epilogue

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdrkoenig67 View Post
    I have to disagree, FP...I believe what was said by Van Lente, Pak, McCann and Co.. That they talked about bringing the team back and they used the Chaos War to do it. I doubt us raving fans had much to do with it. Just as Bendis disliked Alpha Flight and so he used them as cannon-fodder (killed them off, as it were)...The guys that brought them back are big fans of the characters, I think it's as simple as that.

    Dana
    Bingo. Even if there are no plans to actually use the characters any time soon, the fact that they brought them back to be able to be used when there was no real need for it in the story they were telling, that's hardly a business decision. That was a creative one tossed in by people who like the characters and evidently thought they got short shrift in being killed off like that.

    In conclusion:

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by -K-M- View Post
    Well maybe more will be explained in the Chaos War Epilogue
    There isn't one is there?

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    There isn't one is there?
    As of now no, but in a few interviews they said they might release one.

  5. #35
    Harvester of Sorrows Department H
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    Quote Originally Posted by -K-M- View Post
    As of now no, but in a few interviews they said they might release one.
    So, crossover 'event' that would probably have best been told as part of The Incredible Hercules got not only its own mini, not only about fifteen extra minis and one-shots, but now that it's over, they're still trying to get us to buy it?

    Man, if it hadn't brought Alpha Flight back, I'd be completely annoyed at it.

    I've been thinking about calling a readers' strike (I would, if I thought it'd happen) against "Events". Meaning, asking every comic book reader I can reach to not buy "Fear Itself", even if it has an appearance by your favourite character who hasn't had a canon appearance in thirty years, so we can tell Marvel and DC we're sick of the things.

    (I chose that one partly because Flashpoint actually looks vaguely interesting, partly because it was Marvel and not DC who promised no more Events 'for the forseeable future' and then solicited that less than a year after the last one.)

    Then I found out people out there have complained 'the current titles are boring, just in a holding pattern for the next event'...

    - Le Messor
    "I get enough exercise just pushing my luck!"

  6. #36

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    People still buy them though.
    The majority of people love crossovers/events.

    Either that or they hate them so much they buy 2 copies of each book instead of 1.

    Chaos War was a Limited Series with a few ripple titles, that yeah, probably could have been contained to just The Incredible Hercules, but the sales on that were dwindling so it's good business sense to do what they did. If readers prefer to jump on with #1 rather than #143 then that's logical.

    And Chaos War wasn't exactly an Event, per se; the oneshots/mini's weren't essential reading. You could quite easily have just bought and read CW 1-5.
    It didn't involve ongoing titles and interrupt their storylines or randomnly pull them into it (bar Incredible Hulks, I know) ala Second Coming, Civil War etc..

    Civil War was bigger than Secret Invasion which was bigger than Siege which was bigger than Chaos War.
    It was definitely a step in the right direction.

    Yet comic sales have massively dropped since Civil War.

    There's no point having an Alpha Flight around if Marvel can't afford to pay writers & artists and publish a book.

    If an event every few years makes a decent AF story more likely I'm all for it. I won't necessarilly buy it, but I can see it's sometimes a necessary evil.
    Last edited by Phil; 02-06-2011 at 03:11 PM.

  7. #37
    The Old Fan Alpha Flight
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    Default The Big Event

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressMerr View Post
    Bingo. Even if there are no plans to actually use the characters any time soon, the fact that they brought them back to be able to be used when there was no real need for it in the story they were telling, that's hardly a business decision. That was a creative one tossed in by people who like the characters and evidently thought they got short shrift in being killed off like that.

    In conclusion:
    I hope that the positive, optimistic reasons for bringing Alpha Flight back prove to be correct. But Chaos War # 5 doesn't bear it out.

    How would a new reader know that the orange, hairy monster with the exposition dialog is 'Sasquatch'?
    Yellowjacket (a dead Avenger, I believe) is identified. Hulk is identified. THOR is identified. 'Guardian' and 'Sasquatch' are not identified.

    How would a new reader interested in the supergroup that isn't "dead anymore" know that it is ALPHA FLIGHT? How would they be able to recognize 'Shaman' or 'Snowbird' or 'Marrina' or 'Aurora' or 'Northstar'?

    How would anyone know that Snowbird and Hercules recently experienced a pretty significant conflict/relationship?

    I still believe that Chaos War: Alpha Flight is one of the best ALPHA FLIGHT stories MARVEL has ever published, but I also believe that their appearance in CW# 5 is back-handed and the entrenched negative approach to the group is still in full effect.
    Last edited by Garry/Al-Fan; 02-06-2011 at 04:18 PM. Reason: title
    Once upon a time, they exploded from the pages of The X-Men. For a moment, they were "Canada's answer to The Avengers."

    They were ALPHA FLIGHT....

    ...once upon a time.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan View Post
    I hope that the positive, optimistic reasons for bringing Alpha Flight back prove to be correct. But Chaos War # 5 doesn't bear it out.

    How would a new reader know that the orange, hairy monster with the exposition dialog is 'Sasquatch'?
    Yellowjacket (a dead Avenger, I believe) is identified. Hulk is identified. THOR is identified. 'Guardian' and 'Sasquatch' are not identified.

    How would a new reader interested in the supergroup that isn't "dead anymore" know that it is ALPHA FLIGHT? How would they be able to recognize 'Shaman' or 'Snowbird' or 'Marrina' or 'Aurora' or 'Northstar'?

    How would anyone know that Snowbird and Hercules recently experienced a pretty significant conflict/relationship?

    I still believe that Chaos War: Alpha Flight is one of the best ALPHA FLIGHT stories MARVEL has ever published, but I also believe that their appearance in CW# 5 is back-handed and the entrenched negative approach to the group is still in full effect.
    I agree that CW #5 wasn't the best intro to AF for completely new readers, but I really don't see it as back-handed or negative.
    In my opinion it tied up some loose ends from the oneshot and was at least respectful rather than a Lobdell style put-down.

  9. #39

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    It's good to have AF be back, and alive.

    But that doesn't stop me from being VERY concerned that there appears to be no solid plans for the team.

    Yes, being alive is one step closer to SOMETHING being doewn with them.

    BUT...Wouldn't it makie more sense to not bring them back UNTIL you are ready to announce that you brought them back for a reason?

    I'm just saying, it concerns me.

    If they have no reason, then they have no point, and no love. Oh, a few (witers and artists) out there may love them, but not enough to make a push for a series or miniseries that Marvel would even consider, or we would have heard about it already. Amd that is not good.

    All things conoidered, if on a scale of 1 to 100, having AF mainly all dead is a 1 out fo 100, then having them alive but no plans to use them is a 10 out of 100. IMHO.

    Still disgruntled. Still frustrated.
    Support Artists, Not Companies! Creator-owned comics are where the real art is at!

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  10. #40
    The Old Fan Alpha Flight
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    Default MARVEL is so close to lifting Alpha Flight up, with dignity, respect, and skill...

    Phil, if you know somebody at MARVEL who can shed some light on what is happening with ALPHA FLIGHT,
    please see if they would be willing to say something. The team and the fans have suffered for a very long time (unnecessarily), and MARVEL has shown that it can publish a decent Alpha Flight story.

    Backhanded in the sense that if Alpha is really back for good, then Pak and Van Lente should have been allowed to give Alpha a little more attention...a tighter connection to the Incredible Hercules. Backhanded in the sense that, yes, Alpha is included in the Big money-makiing crossover EVENT but not in a way that will make it easy for new readers to identify the group.

    I want an uplifted Alpha Flight as much as any one. MARVEL has proven it can do it. What remains to be seen is if MARVEL will do it again. And again. And again.
    Once upon a time, they exploded from the pages of The X-Men. For a moment, they were "Canada's answer to The Avengers."

    They were ALPHA FLIGHT....

    ...once upon a time.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    People still buy them though.
    Which is why I said I wouldn't bother.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    The majority of people love crossovers/events.
    I don't know. I only ever hear people complaining about the concept - even if they think an individual event is good.
    There's a thing called 'event fatigue' (the Event Horizon?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    Either that or they hate them so much they buy 2 copies of each book instead of 1.
    Yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    Yet comic sales have massively dropped since Civil War.
    Have they all up? (I don't know). But when Marvel are printing 60+ titles a month, readers' money is gonna be spread pretty thin, so any one title will be selling a lot less than it would've with less in-company competition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    There's no point having an Alpha Flight around if Marvel can't afford to pay writers & artists and publish a book.
    True. And there's no point if they can afford to pay them - but give them the money to make the 40th X-Book this week.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flightpath07 View Post
    All things conoidered, if on a scale of 1 to 100, having AF mainly all dead is a 1 out of 100, then having them alive but no plans to use them is a 10 out of 100.
    If they're all dead, there's only one thing you can do - go through their pockets and look for loose change - but they're only mostly dead. And mostly dead is slightly alive.

    - Le Messor
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    Last edited by Le Messor; 02-07-2011 at 02:34 PM.

  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan View Post
    I hope that the positive, optimistic reasons for bringing Alpha Flight back prove to be correct. But Chaos War # 5 doesn't bear it out.

    How would a new reader know that the orange, hairy monster with the exposition dialog is 'Sasquatch'?
    Yellowjacket (a dead Avenger, I believe) is identified. Hulk is identified. THOR is identified. 'Guardian' and 'Sasquatch' are not identified.

    How would a new reader interested in the supergroup that isn't "dead anymore" know that it is ALPHA FLIGHT? How would they be able to recognize 'Shaman' or 'Snowbird' or 'Marrina' or 'Aurora' or 'Northstar'?

    How would anyone know that Snowbird and Hercules recently experienced a pretty significant conflict/relationship?

    I still believe that Chaos War: Alpha Flight is one of the best ALPHA FLIGHT stories MARVEL has ever published, but I also believe that their appearance in CW# 5 is back-handed and the entrenched negative approach to the group is still in full effect.
    I agree. Especially with that last sentence. The potential is there, to tell great AF stories. But, to this point, all that has happened, is that Marvel has said to us (in effect, not in reality), "See, we brought them back, so stop complaining. If somebody wants to use them, they can. Okay?"

    To me, that is a great first step. But, IS IT RESPECT? If it is, it is very grudging. Respect would be saying, "yes, we agree that AF can sell, so we are not only bringing them back, we are going to launch them into a new series, one that'll be very popular. We are going to do that, by the great CW:AF one-shot, followed by a top-notch showing in Chaos War itself, to get fans excited, and then out of that we will spin the new AF series."

    I agree with Garry/Al-Fan and others...the way they were handled in the event, outside of the one-shot, was a throw-away appearance. It wasn't a set-up for anything, nor was it showing any confidence in the characters.

    With Marvel and AF, it always seems to be one step forward, two steps back.

    Am I shooting for the moon? Perhaps.

    But Marvel is firing blanks, and trying to trick us into beleiving they are doing something that clearly they are not.
    Support Artists, Not Companies! Creator-owned comics are where the real art is at!

    My new website! http://lifelessordinarywebnovel.com/home.html Follow my super-powered web-novel adventures, "Life Less Ordinary"!

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    Also 'occasionally' ranting Alpha Flight related stuff at http://canadas-own-the-flight.blogspot.com/

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flightpath07 View Post
    With Marvel and AF, it always seems to be one step forward, two steps back.
    How on Earth is this two steps back? How is this in any way a step back? How is AF possibly worse off than they were before? So their appearance in an issue of a comic was unsatisfying, big deal. They were dead before this, now they're alive for whoever wants to play with them AND we got a solid one-shot out of the deal. There's being bitter, and there's being ridiculous.

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flightpath07 View Post
    Respect would be saying, "yes, we agree that AF can sell, so we are not only bringing them back, we are going to launch them into a new series, one that'll be very popular. We are going to do that, by the great CW:AF one-shot, followed by a top-notch showing in Chaos War itself, to get fans excited, and then out of that we will spin the new AF series."
    Therein lies the problem.

    Alpha Flight doesn't sell.
    Fact.
    I'm sorry, but it's true.
    There are failed series with poor sales as a track record.
    Partly it's because of the way they've been handled in the past under previous EIC's (so let's not try and say it's one person's fault) but there is a stigma attached to them.
    And partly it's because the majority of comics readers don't want anything other than X-Men/Spiderman/Avengers.
    Defenders, Captain Britain/MI13, Runaways etc all don't sell too so its not just singling AF out or ant-Canadianism or anything either.

    It wasn't a set-up for anything
    That's correct, but it was never billed as such.
    Nowhere was it ever stated that it would lead in to the new best-selling-ever respectful AF series. It was a throwaway appearance, like the rest I catalogue here.

    nor was it showing any confidence in the characters.
    And based on sales figures alone they have every right to not have confidence in the characters

    But Marvel is firing blanks, and trying to trick us into beleiving they are doing something that clearly they are not.
    This I don't get at all.
    Where is the trick? Where have they ever stated that they were doing anything with AF other than the oneshot,which they did and did well?

    And just to state; none of my replys are personal attacks, I'm just generally interested in why you think the way you do so am discussing my viewpoint.
    You're entitled to your own differing opinions and this is all still friendly and fun.

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Messor View Post
    I don't know. I only ever hear people complaining about the concept - even if they think an individual event is good.
    There's a thing called 'event fatigue' (the Event Horizon?)
    Okay, using the sales figures for November as an example;

    Chaos War sold 28,630 copies through Diamond in the US.

    That doesn't include direct-through-Marvel subscriptions (I'm not sure if Marvel even do subscriptions anymore), anything sold to international distributors, or anything sold through non-direct market vendors (newsstands, borders, 7-11's, the like).
    So the actual amount of readers is going to be more than 28,630 but we'll never know how many so the basis for anything is going to be the diamond figures.

    On a small scale 28,360 is a lot of people.
    It's more people than I personally know.
    It's more people than are registered here.

    It's a very small % of that 28,360 that complain about event fatigue.
    Even newsarama, cbr etc don't have 28,360 people complaining about event fatigue in one thread.
    There are still a lot of readers who don't use the internet.
    There are still a lot of readers who enjoy events and carry on buying them.

    And that's just using the figures for Chaos War as an example, which as I've stated elsewhere, is more of an extended mini-series than an event.
    The top selling title that month was Batman The Return with 99,545. Again, an Event with a #1.
    Three times as many sales as CW #3.

    Yet 99,545 is still small compared to what sales used to be.

    But when Marvel jare printing 60+ titles a month, readers' money is gonna be spread pretty thin, so any one title will be selling a lot less than it would've with less in-company competition.
    That's a catch 22.

    Gone are the days when a comic reader will pick up everything a company brings out.
    Some people will follow specific titles/characters, some specific artists, writers.

    The more choice there is CAN be good, but a lot of the time it's a case of throwing things at walls and seeing what sticks.

    I personally agree there's probably too many books out there, but using that logic there'd never have been an AF Volume 1, because there were still plenty of books out back then that were selling loads more than books today, there was no physical need for an Alpha Flight title. It came down to good business sense to produce one. Just as it's god business sense now, not to.
    However, it could have been a complete failiure. A chance was taken, a book was put out an it stuck. And eventually un-stuck.

    And there's no point if they can afford to pay them - but give them the money to make the 40th X-Book this week.
    What if said 40th X-Book is Alpha Flight?
    Let's not forget what Volume 1 was a spin-off from.

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