Alpha Flight: Huge Stereotypes or not?

[suzene]

Imagine the stereotype that Northstar would have become had Mantlo been given the go-ahead with his AIDS story...Ugh (again). Suzene, where did Heather make such a joke? I find that disturbing and I don't recall where it took place (maybe I blocked it out?).

AF #42. When Northstar says that he feels raped due to Kara's violation of his will, Heather cracks back "And by a woman! No wonder you're upset!" I'd either forgotten or it went over my head the first time I read it, but when I did a close re-read of the series a couple of years back, it leapt out at me. As a woman, I don't find rape dismissal and/or jokes funny. As a queer woman, the added homophobic undertone made that a serious "Oh, **** you, Mantlo" moment.

BTW: Didn't Marvel "establish" in the X-books that Mutants can't get HIV or AIDS?

Yeah, Chuck Austen had Husk say that during his X-Men run, but the writers haven't touched on it since. I can't say that I'm sorry about that; there's a lot about that guy's writing I'd prefer be forgotten. I guess it all depends on where your personal canon stands regarding the Mantlo story -- since it was established that Loki was a lying liar who lied about the Beabuier twins' ancestry, one way to read it is that Northstar did have AIDS, Aurora cured him, and Austen is full of it. Not that Austen seemed to do a lot of research on the characters he was using -- this is the guy that decided to make Nightcrawler the son of the devil and gave twice-orphaned Northstar an after-school special homophobic zombie dad.

[suzene]

I think one of the main complaints that can be made about AF was that aside from the TwoYoungMens, everyone was white. The introduction of the Chinese characters was a great nod to Canada's large population. Laura Dean was the first black character in AF but rather than show any of the diversity of Canada and make her Jamaican, they were American. V2 characters were all white. V3 did intro Yukon Jack as a faux First Nations character. Puck II had an Asian mother but other than that, we know nothing of her ethnic origins.

That's a complaint that's made about most superhero teams coming out of the Big Two, yeah -- you get the occasional nod to racial/religious/sexual/gender diversity, but it is an overwhelmingly a genre populated by white, straight characters because so many of the creative teams are straight, white men who are writing characters they can relate to. And a lot of the attempts writers do make at diversity fall down flat in the details. For example, even as recently as the Chaos War: AF one-shot, we still have Shaman being referred to as Sarcee, which is actually an insult. And even then, these new characters wind up being the first ones on the chopping block when the next writers to come along decide they need easy angst.

One of the reasons I liked DC before they had an unfortunate spate of killing off minority characters was because Didio really put his weight behind Blue Beetle and Manhunter, two books with well-written, diverse casts that the EiC championed even though they didn't have stellar sales.

[marvelboy74]

That's a complaint that's made about most superhero teams coming out of the Big Two, yeah -- you get the occasional nod to racial/religious/sexual/gender diversity, but it is an overwhelmingly a genre populated by white, straight characters because so many of the creative teams are straight, white men who are writing characters they can relate to. And a lot of the attempts writers do make at diversity fall down flat in the details. For example, even as recently as the Chaos War: AF one-shot, we still have Shaman being referred to as Sarcee, which is actually an insult. And even then, these new characters wind up being the first ones on the chopping block when the next writers to come along decide they need easy angst.

One of the reasons I liked DC before they had an unfortunate spate of killing off minority characters was because Didio really put his weight behind Blue Beetle and Manhunter, two books with well-written, diverse casts that the EiC championed even though they didn't have stellar sales.

Unfortunately, DC seems to go through this phase of creating minority characters and killing them then.

[suzene]

Unfortunately, DC seems to go through this phase of creating minority characters and killing them then.

Yeah. I think the issue is that some of the writers are quite aware of the prevalence of stereotypes and the under-representation of minorities and do their best to address the problem, but they run into issues with edicts from the higher-ups. So, using DC as an example, they fold in the Milestone line, we get a Chinese Atom, a Latino Blue Beetle, a black Firestorm, a Latina, lesbian Question, a gay Batwoman, multi-racial characters like Kyle/GL, the new Robin, and Cass Cain, and greater exposure for some established minority characters, like Pied Piper or Obsidian (with "greater exposure" being relative to what they had before, admittedly). So on the one hand, we do have the writers making a good-faith effort, even if they do fall down on the research sometimes. But then we have an issue with most "iconic" versions of the characters being white characters so then other writers get set to the task of handing the mantles back: Cass Cain gets passed over in favor of a paler, more merchandisable Batgirl; the new Atom gets horribly killed so the old Atom can have the name again (and never mind that there are a zillion Bats out there, obviously we can only have one Atom); the Green Lantern movie stars Hal Jordan, despite an entire generation of movie-goers having grown up with John Stewart as "their" GL from the DCAU; Firestorm gets his old body back; multi-racial characters get whitewashed, etc. So it's often very much a two steps forward, one-point-five steps back deal.

I think Marvel fares a little better in this respect, due to the fact that they have relatively few legacy characters and (recent Spidey-books excepted) less issue with giving old characters new identities or sharing current ones (re: Captain America, Hawkeye, Wolverine, etc.), and are more likely to quietly shuffle new characters off into limbo than kill them off outright. That's a big point in their favor, IMO. Despite their being able to claim the first mainstream gay superhero in Northstar, however, I do think that Marvel's quite a bit more homo-skittish than DC, and that does tend to grate after a while, given my own identity. Usually it comes down to both companies annoying me enough in different ways on this front that I just buy creator-owned unless I'm being made an offer I can't refuse.

[Le Messor]

multi-racial characters like Kyle/GL, the new Robin,

They ARE?!? I didn't get that.

I mean, I know technically Damien has an Arabic mother, but it really doesn't come across.

- Le Messor
"I don't trust him. He has no nasal hair."
~ Bernard Black

[suzene]

Yeah. Kyle's Rayner's dad is hispanic and, as you said, Damien is of the Ah Gul line. It's a tricky subject to portray -- language and culture don't automatically come as part of a package with race, particularly if a character's the offspring of parents who did their best to assimilate (not the case with Damien, of course, but still...).

[DMK]

I think in a number of ways the team reflected Canadian realities more then stereotypes. Mac Hudson created his suit for geological exploration. Fast-forward 30+ years, and the Alberta oil and gas scene is bigger then ever.

Jean-Paul and Jeanne-Marie, were, admittedly, created so the team would have a Quebecois element. I believe the quote was "The twins were there to be French." Still, not exactly stereotypes. Northstar's arrogance was somewhat... I believe Byrne may have based his attitude on Trudeau's. But his profession was atypical, his attitude towards his powers definitely so, and the way his sexuality has been handled has been, for the most part, free of stereotypes.

Aurora's joie-de-vivre might fit a stereotype, but that aspect of her was quickly overshadowed by the exploration of her mental problems.

Sasquatch doesn't really fit any stereotypes. A brilliant biochemist who excelled in football? Not your typical combination.

Shaman comes pretty close, I gotta admit. But Byrne broadened him nicely with the surgical background. I did like the throwaway of other people's prejudices "I hear he gave up real medicine and went back to the reservation." Sheesh.

Snowbird... doesn't fit anywhere.

Heather certainly doesn't fit any stereotypes. We have an uneducated (remember, Heather has at most a GED) woman who worked her way up to become the Executive Assistant to a major petrochem executive and then went on to lead her husband's super-hero team better then he did.

Anyways, just rambling.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Dana, I'm not sure that was ever explicitly stated. Since Northstar was never explicitly confirmed to be gay, it doesn't make sense to give him HIV, unless it would have been Northstar's coming out story. I guess if it would have been an overall positive message story it would have been acceptable. Even thought the Jim Wilson/Hulk story was handled well, I would have prefer to have seen the first HIV comics story have been done with a straight white male. Shadowhawk was also black, Speedy is a female, Extrano was hispanic, Jim Wilson was black. I realize I am digressing off the topic.

I think one of the main complaints that can be made about AF was that aside from the TwoYoungMens, everyone was white. The introduction of the Chinese characters was a great nod to Canada's large population. Laura Dean was the first black character in AF but rather than show any of the diversity of Canada and make her Jamaican, they were American. V2 characters were all white. V3 did intro Yukon Jack as a faux First Nations character. Puck II had an Asian mother but other than that, we know nothing of her ethnic origins.

I have to point out that I don't think Murmur from vol 2 was meant to be white (you stated the volume 2 cast were all white)...I believe she was meant to be of mixed ethnicity. Silver and Auric weren't Canadian (were they?), though...I thought they were Chinese citizens who sought asylum in Canada? Windshear was black and Canadian, but was living in the States, when he joined Alpha, he was raised mostly in England, but I don't think it was ever stated that he was a citizen of the UK (and he even returned to England after leaving Alpha). I also think Laura and Goblyn were Canadian-born and their parents left them (or technically Laura) at Lionel's clinic and moved to the States (they were really horrible people).

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

AF #42. When Northstar says that he feels raped due to Kara's violation of his will, Heather cracks back "And by a woman! No wonder you're upset!" I'd either forgotten or it went over my head the first time I read it, but when I did a close re-read of the series a couple of years back, it leapt out at me. As a woman, I don't find rape dismissal and/or jokes funny. As a queer woman, the added homophobic undertone made that a serious "Oh, **** you, Mantlo" moment.

Yeah, Chuck Austen had Husk say that during his X-Men run, but the writers haven't touched on it since. I can't say that I'm sorry about that; there's a lot about that guy's writing I'd prefer be forgotten. I guess it all depends on where your personal canon stands regarding the Mantlo story -- since it was established that Loki was a lying liar who lied about the Beabuier twins' ancestry, one way to read it is that Northstar did have AIDS, Aurora cured him, and Austen is full of it. Not that Austen seemed to do a lot of research on the characters he was using -- this is the guy that decided to make Nightcrawler the son of the devil and gave twice-orphaned Northstar an after-school special homophobic zombie dad.

Argh...Yeah, I recall Austen's run with disgust...Wow, that was some bad stuff. Thank you for clearing up the Heather making rape jokes thing....I recall those words now...Ick! Austen gave Jean Paul a zombie homophobic dad??! This, I did not know...Argh again!

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

Yeah. I think the issue is that some of the writers are quite aware of the prevalence of stereotypes and the under-representation of minorities and do their best to address the problem, but they run into issues with edicts from the higher-ups. So, using DC as an example, they fold in the Milestone line, we get a Chinese Atom, a Latino Blue Beetle, a black Firestorm, a Latina, lesbian Question, a gay Batwoman, multi-racial characters like Kyle/GL, the new Robin, and Cass Cain, and greater exposure for some established minority characters, like Pied Piper or Obsidian (with "greater exposure" being relative to what they had before, admittedly). So on the one hand, we do have the writers making a good-faith effort, even if they do fall down on the research sometimes. But then we have an issue with most "iconic" versions of the characters being white characters so then other writers get set to the task of handing the mantles back: Cass Cain gets passed over in favor of a paler, more merchandisable Batgirl; the new Atom gets horribly killed so the old Atom can have the name again (and never mind that there are a zillion Bats out there, obviously we can only have one Atom); the Green Lantern movie stars Hal Jordan, despite an entire generation of movie-goers having grown up with John Stewart as "their" GL from the DCAU; Firestorm gets his old body back; multi-racial characters get whitewashed, etc. So it's often very much a two steps forward, one-point-five steps back deal.

I think Marvel fares a little better in this respect, due to the fact that they have relatively few legacy characters and (recent Spidey-books excepted) less issue with giving old characters new identities or sharing current ones (re: Captain America, Hawkeye, Wolverine, etc.), and are more likely to quietly shuffle new characters off into limbo than kill them off outright. That's a big point in their favor, IMO. Despite their being able to claim the first mainstream gay superhero in Northstar, however, I do think that Marvel's quite a bit more homo-skittish than DC, and that does tend to grate after a while, given my own identity. Usually it comes down to both companies annoying me enough in different ways on this front that I just buy creator-owned unless I'm being made an offer I can't refuse.

I don't know if Marvel is gay gun-shy really...I mean, there are writers who are pushing the boundries...Like Peter David in X-Factor with Shatterstar and Rictor being revealed as lovers (I don't read the book, but I thought it was a great revelation...And it pisses off Rob Liefeld...LOL!)....Oh...And the writer that brought us Wiccan and Hulkling? I don't know..To me, it seems like Marvel is trying.

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

I think in a number of ways the team reflected Canadian realities more then stereotypes. Mac Hudson created his suit for geological exploration. Fast-forward 30+ years, and the Alberta oil and gas scene is bigger then ever.

Jean-Paul and Jeanne-Marie, were, admittedly, created so the team would have a Quebecois element. I believe the quote was "The twins were there to be French." Still, not exactly stereotypes. Northstar's arrogance was somewhat... I believe Byrne may have based his attitude on Trudeau's. But his profession was atypical, his attitude towards his powers definitely so, and the way his sexuality has been handled has been, for the most part, free of stereotypes.

I would agree, whole-heartedly.

Aurora's joie-de-vivre might fit a stereotype, but that aspect of her was quickly overshadowed by the exploration of her mental problems.

Sasquatch doesn't really fit any stereotypes. A brilliant biochemist who excelled in football? Not your typical combination.

Shaman comes pretty close, I gotta admit. But Byrne broadened him nicely with the surgical background. I did like the throwaway of other people's prejudices "I hear he gave up real medicine and went back to the reservation." Sheesh.

Oh yeah, the comment the other MDs made about him, right?

Snowbird... doesn't fit anywhere.

Heather certainly doesn't fit any stereotypes. We have an uneducated (remember, Heather has at most a GED) woman who worked her way up to become the Executive Assistant to a major petrochem executive and then went on to lead her husband's super-hero team better then he did.

Anyways, just rambling.

Somebody mentioned somewhere, that Heather was a typical stereotype of an Albertan....I have no idea what that means, though. I could swear that it was mentioned that Heather finished school early (graduated early or something), during Byrne's run...She only has the equivalent of a GED?

Dana

[suzene]

Argh...Yeah, I recall Austen's run with disgust...Wow, that was some bad stuff. Thank you for clearing up the Heather making rape jokes thing....I recall those words now...Ick! Austen gave Jean Paul a zombie homophobic dad??! This, I did not know...Argh again!

Not literally -- it's how I refer to Northstar confiding to another character that his father almost killed him when he came out. Considering that Northstar's birth parents died when he was a baby, the people he thought were his biological parents died when he was six, he was never formally adopted by another family (and might not have even been with one family for very long after he was orphaned again), and Raymonde was gay himself, it's not a statement that makes a lot of sense. So one of the ways some of us Northstar fans on another board would mock Austen's run was to pretend to flee in terror from Northstar's dad, risen from the grave to disapprove of his son's lifestyle.

Look, it was more fun than Austen's writing, OK?

[Le Messor]

flee in terror from Northstar's dad, risen from the grave

Like Joan Crawford!

[MistressMerr]

Not literally -- it's how I refer to Northstar confiding to another character that his father almost killed him when he came out. Considering that Northstar's birth parents died when he was a baby, the people he thought were his biological parents died when he was six, he was never formally adopted by another family (and might not have even been with one family for very long after he was orphaned again), and Raymonde was gay himself, it's not a statement that makes a lot of sense. So one of the ways some of us Northstar fans on another board would mock Austen's run was to pretend to flee in terror from Northstar's dad, risen from the grave to disapprove of his son's lifestyle.

Look, it was more fun than Austen's writing, OK?

Maybe he came out in preschool? XD

[cmdrkoenig67]

Like Joan Crawford!

Joan Crawford rose from the grave? Where was I when this happened?

Dana