Alpha Flight: Huge Stereotypes or not?

[suzene]

Speaking of Rhonda (Northstar's "boyfriend's girlfriend" or room-mate as I thought I had read her to be somewhere)...Maybe she was once a he...You never know.

Or maybe Northstar's boyfriend didn't mind being in the middle, or maybe Northstar didn't mind doing doing favors. After all, identifying as gay doesn't mean you become physically incapable of pleasuring the opposite sex.

Weirdly enough, though, Byrne was referring to Clementine with that comment. But I guess that would certainly explain why she felt familiar enough with Jean-Paul to tackle him in a kiss the minute she saw him.

Heather's comment in X/Alpha was Claremont's doing...But good point, Suzene about Jeanne-Marie in #22 (wasn't it actually JM and not Aurora that was shocked about Clementine?).

Nope. JM was in control up until the point she passed out, but when she woke up, Aurora was in control and had no idea what was going on. I always wondered whether or not JM actually knew Northstar was gay back in the early days, or if that was something Aurora kept to herself.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Or maybe Northstar's boyfriend didn't mind being in the middle, or maybe Northstar didn't mind doing doing favors. After all, identifying as gay doesn't mean you become physically incapable of pleasuring the opposite sex.

Weirdly enough, though, Byrne was referring to Clementine with that comment. But I guess that would certainly explain why she felt familiar enough with Jean-Paul to tackle him in a kiss the minute she saw him.

Nope. JM was in control up until the point she passed out, but when she woke up, Aurora was in control and had no idea what was going on. I always wondered whether or not JM actually knew Northstar was gay back in the early days, or if that was something Aurora kept to herself.

I doubt Jeanne-Marie knew then...She was a bit naive in those days.

Dana

[DIGGER]

Northstar and Aurora didn't know of each other until they were in their late teens/early 20's, right? I don't know if she could be called naive but rather ignorant or oblivious to her newfound siblings lifestyle. As for the stereotype topic, the logic behind the characters and their names/powers is just that...logical. If a Sarcee male were to become a doctor, who also still had strong generational ties would he not be called a Shaman? If a scientist does an experiment on himself and were to turn into a giant hairy creature, wouldn't he take the name Sasquatch (after all Walt calls himself that after he hears the description of himself in the giant hairy creature form)? I don't think of them as being stereotypical but rather like 1+1=2...logical.

DIGGER

[Tawmis]

On another forum, when I was promoting the ALPHA FLIGHT review I did - someone on the forum had said that Alpha Flight suffered from stereo types... But I am not entirely sure how familiar the person is with Alpha Flight.

[Le Messor]

Cool bit of cross-promotion there!
That's a gaming forum, right?

- Le Messor
"I don't have problems; I have puzzles."
~ Mark T. Shirey

[Tawmis]

Cool bit of cross-promotion there!
That's a gaming forum, right?

Aye, I co-admin the forum. But yeah, I pretty much posted about ALPHA FLIGHT everywhere I could.

[marvelboy74]

Speaking as a gay man, though I wasn't Northstar's age in the 80s, I can understand much of Northstar's personality and quirks. He may not have hated women, but if he was well known as an athlete, he probably had women throwing themselves at him and perhaps he grew to dislike women who did that. Kara did have a crush on JP when she was first introduced. I doubt Northstar hated all women. Generally, gay men don't hate women these days, I like to have gay male friends. I have some straight women friends and not really any straight male friends (relegating most as acquaintances). The reason for this? It's just with whom I may have the most in common. I don't really care about any professional or college sports, and no, I'm not saying women can't be into sports, but there generally are less women who are as fervent as men when "their team" plays. Being into sports, JP may not have had much in common with women. I would suspect that JP probably also had some unrequited crushes on some of his Olympic teammates and such so he may have preferred the company of men that way. Also, he may have been known to hang out with other "confirmed bachelors."

Northstar's overall beligerance may have been because he was closeted. It sounds like his bf was also closeted. Remember, this is the 80s but over 25 years later, we still have married men who have homosexual relations on the side. Northstar probably was raised Catholic but no doubt like many gay men, he felt alienated by the church and stopped practicing.

I find that Byrne probably did the best job of writing a gay male character. There are very few straight male comic writers who are able to write a gay male character well. Kurt Busiek is the only other name that comes to mind.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I find that Byrne probably did the best job of writing a gay male character. There are very few straight male comic writers who are able to write a gay male character well. Kurt Busiek is the only other name that comes to mind.

Indeed, we all know that Bill Mantlo was a very bad writer of a gay character...When he took Alpha over, he instantly made Jean Paul sick and wanted to do an AIDS story....Ugh. Again I'll say, I'm glad the powers that be at the time said no to the storyline. Instead , Mantlo made Northstar sick because he was a fairy...Subtle.

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

Northstar and Aurora didn't know of each other until they were in their late teens/early 20's, right? I don't know if she could be called naive but rather ignorant or oblivious to her newfound siblings lifestyle. As for the stereotype topic, the logic behind the characters and their names/powers is just that...logical. If a Sarcee male were to become a doctor, who also still had strong generational ties would he not be called a Shaman? If a scientist does an experiment on himself and were to turn into a giant hairy creature, wouldn't he take the name Sasquatch (after all Walt calls himself that after he hears the description of himself in the giant hairy creature form)? I don't think of them as being stereotypical but rather like 1+1=2...logical.

DIGGER

I agree Dig...We know that Mr Byrne didn't really have much in the way of back-story for most of the team before they got their own series, but I think he filled out their histories pretty well, once Alpha Flight vol 1 got going.

Dana

[suzene]

Northstar's overall beligerance may have been because he was closeted. It sounds like his bf was also closeted. Remember, this is the 80s but over 25 years later, we still have married men who have homosexual relations on the side. Northstar probably was raised Catholic but no doubt like many gay men, he felt alienated by the church and stopped practicing.

I've never agreed with the interpretation of Northstar as closeted, simply because he's never been shown to deny his sexuality and everyone around him seemed to know he was gay -- his teammates remark underhand on his sexuality almost from the first issue of Alpha Flight. I never put a lot of stock in the idea that you have to hold a literal press conference on the subject of being gay to count as out. I particularly don't agree with writers like Lobdell who attribute Northstar's overall bad attitude to the idea that he was gay/closeted. The hardships that Northstar underwent in his early life, for example, have nothing to do with his sexuality, but would be more than enough to put a chip on someone's shoulder, not to mention that Northstar also had a mentor to help him come to terms with his homosexuality -- it's probably one of the very few challenges of his early life that he didn't have to deal with alone.

This isn't to say that I think a lack of societal acceptance of his sexuality didn't contribute at all to his general snarkiness, but Lobdell's assessment glosses over the fact JP is a triple minority who had one hell of a rough start in life; finally found fame and fortune, then gave it up for a life he didn't want for the sake of a sister he never knew and who rarely seemed willing to sacrifice as much for him as he was for her; and has watched almost everyone he ever cared for die, often right in front of his eyes while being helpless to stop it. To then attribute all of his defensiveness and bad attitude to one aspect of his being flattened a very complex character, and was the first step in turning him from Jean-Paul Beaubier, former Olympian, homosexual, and reluctant hero, into The Gay One.

[suzene]

Indeed, we all know that Bill Mantlo was a very bad writer of a gay character...When he took Alpha over, he instantly made Jean Paul sick and wanted to do an AIDS story....Ugh. Again I'll say, I'm glad the powers that be at the time said no to the storyline. Instead , Mantlo made Northstar sick because he was a fairy...Subtle.

Dana

100% agreement here. I was done with Mantlo when he had Heather cracking homophobic rape jokes. I know this was the 80's but seriously?! I couldn't believe the editors let that stay in.

[marvelboy74]

I've never agreed with the interpretation of Northstar as closeted, simply because he's never been shown to deny his sexuality and everyone around him seemed to know he was gay -- his teammates remark underhand on his sexuality almost from the first issue of Alpha Flight. I never put a lot of stock in the idea that you have to hold a literal press conference on the subject of being gay to count as out. I particularly don't agree with writers like Lobdell who attribute Northstar's overall bad attitude to the idea that he was gay/closeted. The hardships that Northstar underwent in his early life have nothing to do with his sexuality, but would be more than enough to put a chip on someone's shoulder, not to mention that Northstar also had a mentor to help him come to terms with his homosexuality -- it's probably one of the very few challenges of his life that he didn't have to deal with alone.

This isn't to say that I think a lack of societal acceptance of his sexuality didn't contribute at all to his general snarkiness, but Lobdell's assessment glosses over the fact JP is a triple minority who had one hell of a rough start in life; finally found fame and fortune, then gave it up for a life he didn't want for the sake of a sister he never knew and who rarely seemed willing to sacrifice as much for him as he was for her; and has watched almost everyone he ever cared for die, often right in front of his eyes while being helpless to stop it. To then attribute all of his defensiveness and bad attitude to one aspect of his being flattened a very complex character, and was the first step in turning him from Jean-Paul Beaubier, former Olympian, homosexual, and reluctant hero, into The Gay One.

And maybe we'll have to disagree on this one. While Canada is more progressive than the US in many ways, adopting equal protection laws in 1985, changes in legislature do not equate into changes of attitude. I knew a man once from Canada who would have been in his 20s during the 80s, yet still ended up marrying and divorcing a woman by the time he reached his 30s. Despite the pioneering of lesbian chanteuse Carole Pope, kd lang did not come out until 92, 6 years after she had her recording contract. I would lay odds that those closest to kd knew she was gay though she had not publicly come out. Again, Kara did not know that he was gay so JP had never publicly admitted his homosexuality, though he apparently acknowledged it, had accepted it and was comfortable in disclosing it to his teammate.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Yeah...Northstar/Jean Paul was closeted (to most of the world)...All the way up to his public "coming out" in the heat of battle with Major Mapleleaf in #106...Ugh.

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

100% agreement here. I was done with Mantlo when he had Heather cracking homophobic rape jokes. I know this was the 80's but seriously?! I couldn't believe the editors let that stay in.

Imagine the stereotype that Northstar would have become had Mantlo been given the go-ahead with his AIDS story...Ugh (again). Suzene, where did Heather make such a joke? I find that disturbing and I don't recall where it took place (maybe I blocked it out?).

Dana

BTW: Didn't Marvel "establish" in the X-books that Mutants can't get HIV or AIDS?

[marvelboy74]

Imagine the stereotype that Northstar would have become had Mantlo been given the go-ahead with his AIDS story...Ugh (again). Suzene, where did Heather make such a joke? I find that disturbing and I don't recall where it took place (maybe I blocked it out?).

Dana

BTW: Didn't Marvel "establish" in the X-books that Mutants can't get HIV or AIDS?

Dana, I'm not sure that was ever explicitly stated. Since Northstar was never explicitly confirmed to be gay, it doesn't make sense to give him HIV, unless it would have been Northstar's coming out story. I guess if it would have been an overall positive message story it would have been acceptable. Even thought the Jim Wilson/Hulk story was handled well, I would have prefer to have seen the first HIV comics story have been done with a straight white male. Shadowhawk was also black, Speedy is a female, Extrano was hispanic, Jim Wilson was black. I realize I am digressing off the topic.

I think one of the main complaints that can be made about AF was that aside from the TwoYoungMens, everyone was white. The introduction of the Chinese characters was a great nod to Canada's large population. Laura Dean was the first black character in AF but rather than show any of the diversity of Canada and make her Jamaican, they were American. V2 characters were all white. V3 did intro Yukon Jack as a faux First Nations character. Puck II had an Asian mother but other than that, we know nothing of her ethnic origins.