Alpha Flight: Huge Stereotypes or not?

[cmdrkoenig67]

I thought we could discuss this...

Shaman, Native Canadian (indian) mystic...Yes, this is an old stereotype...I have to agree on this one.

Sasquatch...The term Sasquatch is also used in the Northwestern United States...It's not just a Canadian term, is it?

Northstar, gay Montreal-er...Is that really a stereotype? Montreal is a more metropolitan city than Quebec city and it has a gay-friendly atmosphere, but was it like that in the 80's too? I don't know.

Aurora, Nun and harlot (via Twyst)...truthfully, I've never seen Aurora as a harlot or a tramp. She only became so, after Mantlo took over the book, when she began to easily throw herself toward anyone when Walter "died" (Bochs, Madison, etc...). She was only every really a nun, many years after Byrne left the book. Figuratively, Jeanne-Marie was "nun-like" in that she was chaste and religious...But I don't see how that makes her a Quebecois stereotype (maybe because I'm not Canadian)? Is the stereotype that all Quebecois women are nun-like or harlots? I don't know.

Puck, named after a hockey-related object...But is he a hockey fan? Maybe he was shown to be later in Volume 1, but Byrne never addressed any hockey obsession that Judd may have had, that I know of.

Snowbird, named after an Anne Murray (A Canadian...Gasp!) song (LOL)?

Major Mapleleaf...Dudley Do-right wannabee? probably, he did seem rather one-dimensional to me.

What qualities make these folks stereotypes? What qualities make them not so steorotypical? Which other Flight characters are stereotypical and why?

What do you all think?

If one really thinks about it....Almost every superhero is a stereotype to some extent...There are "bricks" (super strong, tough types who tend to be big), "blasters" (those who have energy powers), "Mystics" (who use magic in some form or other), The "patriot" (who wears their country's flag and fights for some patriotic ideal), The "speedster", the "brain", the "uber-man", etc, etc...

[Flightpath07]

"Snowbird" is also the squadron of expert pilots, who work for the Canadian military, fly over events, due aerial maneovers and tricks, etcetera.

As far as Aurora being a nun being typical, maybe that is because Quebec has a higher ratio of Catholics than elsewhere in the country?

[cmdrkoenig67]

"Snowbird" is also the squadron of expert pilots, who work for the Canadian military, fly over events, due aerial maneovers and tricks, etcetera.

As far as Aurora being a nun being typical, maybe that is because Quebec has a higher ratio of Catholics than elsewhere in the country?

Thanks for the info on the Snowbird Squad, FP...I didn't know about them. If having Jeanne-Marie be Catholic (Aurora must be a lapsed Catholic...LOL) is a stereotype, that's just silly if the majority of Quebecois are Catholic (about 86%, according to canadianchristianity.com)...Odds would be pretty high that the Quebecois (or at least one of two) on the team would be Catholic. On the other hand, Northstar seems to have no religious leanings.

Dana

EDIT: I looked up the Snowbirds...Cool...Akin to the Blue Angels in the States.

[marvelboy74]

Speaking as a gay man, though I wasn't Northstar's age in the 80s, I can understand much of Northstar's personality and quirks. He may not have hated women, but if he was well known as an athlete, he probably had women throwing themselves at him and perhaps he grew to dislike women who did that. Kara did have a crush on JP when she was first introduced. I doubt Northstar hated all women. Generally, gay men don't hate women these days, I like to have gay male friends. I have some straight women friends and not really any straight male friends (relegating most as acquaintances). The reason for this? It's just with whom I may have the most in common. I don't really care about any professional or college sports, and no, I'm not saying women can't be into sports, but there generally are less women who are as fervent as men when "their team" plays. Being into sports, JP may not have had much in common with women. I would suspect that JP probably also had some unrequited crushes on some of his Olympic teammates and such so he may have preferred the company of men that way. Also, he may have been known to hang out with other "confirmed bachelors."

Northstar's overall beligerance may have been because he was closeted. It sounds like his bf was also closeted. Remember, this is the 80s but over 25 years later, we still have married men who have homosexual relations on the side. Northstar probably was raised Catholic but no doubt like many gay men, he felt alienated by the church and stopped practicing.

I find that Byrne probably did the best job of writing a gay male character. There are very few straight male comic writers who are able to write a gay male character well. Kurt Busiek is the only other name that comes to mind.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I find that Byrne probably did the best job of writing a gay male character. There are very few straight male comic writers who are able to write a gay male character well. Kurt Busiek is the only other name that comes to mind.

Indeed, we all know that Bill Mantlo was a very bad writer of a gay character...When he took Alpha over, he instantly made Jean Paul sick and wanted to do an AIDS story....Ugh. Again I'll say, I'm glad the powers that be at the time said no to the storyline. Instead , Mantlo made Northstar sick because he was a fairy...Subtle.

Dana

[suzene]

Indeed, we all know that Bill Mantlo was a very bad writer of a gay character...When he took Alpha over, he instantly made Jean Paul sick and wanted to do an AIDS story....Ugh. Again I'll say, I'm glad the powers that be at the time said no to the storyline. Instead , Mantlo made Northstar sick because he was a fairy...Subtle.

Dana

100% agreement here. I was done with Mantlo when he had Heather cracking homophobic rape jokes. I know this was the 80's but seriously?! I couldn't believe the editors let that stay in.

[suzene]

Northstar's overall beligerance may have been because he was closeted. It sounds like his bf was also closeted. Remember, this is the 80s but over 25 years later, we still have married men who have homosexual relations on the side. Northstar probably was raised Catholic but no doubt like many gay men, he felt alienated by the church and stopped practicing.

I've never agreed with the interpretation of Northstar as closeted, simply because he's never been shown to deny his sexuality and everyone around him seemed to know he was gay -- his teammates remark underhand on his sexuality almost from the first issue of Alpha Flight. I never put a lot of stock in the idea that you have to hold a literal press conference on the subject of being gay to count as out. I particularly don't agree with writers like Lobdell who attribute Northstar's overall bad attitude to the idea that he was gay/closeted. The hardships that Northstar underwent in his early life, for example, have nothing to do with his sexuality, but would be more than enough to put a chip on someone's shoulder, not to mention that Northstar also had a mentor to help him come to terms with his homosexuality -- it's probably one of the very few challenges of his early life that he didn't have to deal with alone.

This isn't to say that I think a lack of societal acceptance of his sexuality didn't contribute at all to his general snarkiness, but Lobdell's assessment glosses over the fact JP is a triple minority who had one hell of a rough start in life; finally found fame and fortune, then gave it up for a life he didn't want for the sake of a sister he never knew and who rarely seemed willing to sacrifice as much for him as he was for her; and has watched almost everyone he ever cared for die, often right in front of his eyes while being helpless to stop it. To then attribute all of his defensiveness and bad attitude to one aspect of his being flattened a very complex character, and was the first step in turning him from Jean-Paul Beaubier, former Olympian, homosexual, and reluctant hero, into The Gay One.

[marvelboy74]

I've never agreed with the interpretation of Northstar as closeted, simply because he's never been shown to deny his sexuality and everyone around him seemed to know he was gay -- his teammates remark underhand on his sexuality almost from the first issue of Alpha Flight. I never put a lot of stock in the idea that you have to hold a literal press conference on the subject of being gay to count as out. I particularly don't agree with writers like Lobdell who attribute Northstar's overall bad attitude to the idea that he was gay/closeted. The hardships that Northstar underwent in his early life have nothing to do with his sexuality, but would be more than enough to put a chip on someone's shoulder, not to mention that Northstar also had a mentor to help him come to terms with his homosexuality -- it's probably one of the very few challenges of his life that he didn't have to deal with alone.

This isn't to say that I think a lack of societal acceptance of his sexuality didn't contribute at all to his general snarkiness, but Lobdell's assessment glosses over the fact JP is a triple minority who had one hell of a rough start in life; finally found fame and fortune, then gave it up for a life he didn't want for the sake of a sister he never knew and who rarely seemed willing to sacrifice as much for him as he was for her; and has watched almost everyone he ever cared for die, often right in front of his eyes while being helpless to stop it. To then attribute all of his defensiveness and bad attitude to one aspect of his being flattened a very complex character, and was the first step in turning him from Jean-Paul Beaubier, former Olympian, homosexual, and reluctant hero, into The Gay One.

And maybe we'll have to disagree on this one. While Canada is more progressive than the US in many ways, adopting equal protection laws in 1985, changes in legislature do not equate into changes of attitude. I knew a man once from Canada who would have been in his 20s during the 80s, yet still ended up marrying and divorcing a woman by the time he reached his 30s. Despite the pioneering of lesbian chanteuse Carole Pope, kd lang did not come out until 92, 6 years after she had her recording contract. I would lay odds that those closest to kd knew she was gay though she had not publicly come out. Again, Kara did not know that he was gay so JP had never publicly admitted his homosexuality, though he apparently acknowledged it, had accepted it and was comfortable in disclosing it to his teammate.

[Mokole]

Not that stereotypical, Guardian, Vindicator, Puck, ....

[Flightpath07]

Yeah, many of these characters were groundbreaking at their time!

[suzene]

I don't think that Northstar's sexuality was part of a stereotype -- if anything, I think Byrne avoided a lot of hurtful gay stereotypes with Jean-Paul, something that most other writers never managed once he was outed. But his being a snotty francophone and a radical separatist are stereotypes applied to Quebecois.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I don't think that Northstar's sexuality was part of a stereotype -- if anything, I think Byrne avoided a lot of hurtful gay stereotypes with Jean-Paul, something that most other writers never managed once he was outed. But his being a snotty francophone and a radical separatist are stereotypes applied to Quebecois.

Yeah...He wasn't flaming or effeminate, he was strong and into sports and he also apparently liked fights (see issue one). The snotty francophone stereotype is also applied to those from France too. Aurora wasn't snotty, was she? She always seemed friendly and outgoing. So Byrne created a sort of balance there? Byrne touched on Jean Paul's dealings with the Separatists, but I'd hardly call him radical...He left it behind, after all.

Dana

[suzene]

Yeah...He wasn't flaming or effeminate, he was strong and into sports and he also apparently liked fights (see issue one). The snotty francophone stereotype is also applied to those from France too. Aurora wasn't snotty, was she? She always seemed friendly and outgoing. So Byrne created a sort of balance there? Byrne touched on Jean Paul's dealings with the Separatists, but I'd hardly call him radical...He left it behind, after all.

Northstar was established as a scrapper literally from his first appearances in UXM, and yeah, he was also quite the jock. Not to say that Byrne avoided gay stereotypes entirely, what with Jean-Paul being supposedly so bad with women. But even though that was the authorial intent, it didn't really carry through in the text -- we didn't see Jean-Paul relating any worse to women than he did to anyone else, and he could even be quite the charmer when need be.

The twins represented a lot of different aspects of Quebec. Aurora was meant to represent two different aspects of the culture -- the large Catholic population and the not-entirely flattering reputation that Quebecois women have for being high-tempered and feisty. And she was quite...friendly. To the point that Heather was getting irritated at her flirtations with Mac. I don't think it was a matter of her being loose, though; I think that she just didn't know any other way to relate to men, given her upbringing. But when it comes down to what she's supposed to represent, that doesn't make the portrayal any kinder, really, especially since it can be taken as calling Quebec a bit schizo.

As above, Northstar got tagged with representing Quebec's language wars and the Separatists. As he was in with the FLQ, so I'd say radical applies, even if it was in his past. He wasn't just for secession, remember, he joined up with the violent fringe and participated in several bombings, only pulling out when it came down to a matter of knowing murder. Again, not the most flattering representation.

None of the above is a deal-breaker for me, but I also can't really fault anyone who'd look at that and be turned off. For example, I originally come from southern Louisiana. I'm familiar with Cajun culture. And so when I see an eye-rolling stereotype like Gambit, I don't really care about what else there is to the character. So far as I'm concerned, learning anything non-incidental about that character involves having to hold my nose going forward. It's simply not an enjoyable prospect, and I can see where the same might be true for someone from Canada reading old school Alpha Flight.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Northstar was established as a scrapper literally from his first appearances in UXM, and yeah, he was also quite the jock. Not to say that Byrne avoided gay stereotypes entirely, what with Jean-Paul being supposedly so bad with women. But even though that was the authorial intent, it didn't really carry through in the text -- we didn't see Jean-Paul relating any worse to women than he did to anyone else, and he could even be quite the charmer when need be.

I don't recall him being mentioned as being bad with women...I just recall Mac saying Jean Paul didn't have much interest in them.

The twins represented a lot of different aspects of Quebec. Aurora was meant to represent two different aspects of the culture -- the large Catholic population and the not-entirely flattering reputation that Quebecois women have for being high-tempered and feisty. And she was quite...friendly. To the point that Heather was getting irritated at her flirtations with Mac. I don't think it was a matter of her being loose, though; I think that she just didn't know any other way to relate to men, given her upbringing. But when it comes down to what she's supposed to represent, that doesn't make the portrayal any kinder, really, especially since it can be taken as calling Quebec a bit schizo.

Ah...Good points, Suz.

As above, Northstar got tagged with representing Quebec's language wars and the Separatists. As he was in with the FLQ, so I'd say radical applies, even if it was in his past. He wasn't just for secession, remember, he joined up with the violent fringe and participated in several bombings, only pulling out when it came down to a matter of knowing murder. Again, not the most flattering representation.

But it certainly added a layer to his character.

None of the above is a deal-breaker for me, but I also can't really fault anyone who'd look at that and be turned off. For example, I originally come from southern Louisiana. I'm familiar with Cajun culture. And so when I see an eye-rolling stereotype like Gambit, I don't really care about what else there is to the character. So far as I'm concerned, learning anything non-incidental about that character involves having to hold my nose going forward. It's simply not an enjoyable prospect, and I can see where the same might be true for someone from Canada reading old school Alpha Flight.

I hear ya.

Dana

[suzene]

I don't recall him being mentioned as being bad with women...I just recall Mac saying Jean Paul didn't have much interest in them.

Mac said he didn't have much interest in them, but that also goes along with Heather doing the whole "He went scouting with a woman? They'll kill each other!" in the AF/XM cross-over, and Aurora being shocked -- shocked! -- to find Jean-Paul in the company of a woman in AF #22. Byrne's also stated in interviews discussing the character how Northstar was very bad at relating to women. It's not the worst of the stereotypical assumptions out there, that liking men means you hate/don't get on with women, but it is still an assumption rooted in homophobia and misogyny, and I'm glad it didn't come through any stronger in the actual work.