We're all Alpha Flight fans, right...?

[Tawmis]

True. But I never was a fan of New Mutans or Power Pack, but at least NM were teens, which I learn to live with.

The original run of New Mutants (right up to around issue 17) was nothing short of awesome.

[MistressMerr]

The original run of New Mutants (right up to around issue 17) was nothing short of awesome.

You think? For me, the Claremont/Sienkiewicz run (18 to 38 ) are the golden years, hands down. One of my top 5 favourite runs of anything, right up there with AF #1-28.

[Tawmis]

You think? For me, the Claremont/Sienkiewicz run (18 to 38 ) are the golden years, hands down. One of my top 5 favourite runs of anything, right up there with AF #1-28.

Honestly it was the art that turned me off. I didn't like that, for example, Sam's head was like 30 feet long with his hair. And everyone looked like they were made out of wire. When I have to pause to try and figure out who is who or what's going on in a comic panel, it takes me out of the moment... so to speak. Also a lot of the stories seemed... pretty strange. I didn't mind Demon Bear. But then Rahne with the fairy tale story... I didn't care for it. Seemed like a HORRIBLE attempt (to me, mind you!) at trying to sort of capture what X-Men did with "Kitty's Fairytale" which was awesome.

[Le Messor]

...in her human form she ... didn't run the risk of going feral.

Isn't that what happened to her? She went human feral.
Also, remember when she had to turn into a wolverine to defeat Wendigo?

The main point I'm trying to make is using in-story logic when writing rather than ignoring it.

I get that that'd make it harder to read, but you've got to remember that Byrne didn't create her as a goddess; he didn't know what he wanted her to be when he made her a shapeshifter, and her origin was a retcon. So he couldn't do that.

Also, I've always liked her because she can become animals.

Suzene, I will always like Sasquatch, but I understand your points, and they do make sense.

The original question:
I'm on record (available for $15.99 at bad record stores everywhere) as saying I loathe v2 with a passion. While I agree that the dichotomy between Flex's powers and his personality makes him a good character, the rest... Ugh. I don't even call it Alpha Flight.

- Le Messor
"I hate it when people say I ran away like a frightened rabbit. Maybe I ran like a brave rabbit who was picking a fight somewhere else."
~ Snowbird Jack Handey

[Phil]

I'm on record (available for $15.99 at bad record stores everywhere) as saying I loathe v2 with a passion. While I agree that the dichotomy between Flex's powers and his personality makes him a good character, the rest... Ugh. I don't even call it Alpha Flight.

See, I'm torn.
If it wasn't for the promotion and launch of Vol.2 #1 I'd never have picked up Vol.1 #1 or joined this list/group/forum/site in it's varying incarnations, so Vol.2 will always have a place in my heart. And 16 year old me enjoyed most of it.
Looking back now, and having read the whole of the Byrne run since, it doesn't stand up to Byrne Flight and to me it's more "Department H: The Miniseries" with a few guest appearances from Alphans, much like Volume 3 was "What The...?!?:An Alpha Flight Special" and Omega Flight was "Civil War Aftermath - The Initiative: Canada."

Or something like that. Not slighting any of the creators involved.

[Phil]

Honestly it was the art that turned me off. I didn't like that, for example, Sam's head was like 30 feet long with his hair. And everyone looked like they were made out of wire. When I have to pause to try and figure out who is who or what's going on in a comic panel, it takes me out of the moment... so to speak. Also a lot of the stories seemed... pretty strange. I didn't mind Demon Bear. But then Rahne with the fairy tale story... I didn't care for it. Seemed like a HORRIBLE attempt (to me, mind you!) at trying to sort of capture what X-Men did with "Kitty's Fairytale" which was awesome.

Reading the issues as a kid I hated the art too, but years later I've come to absolutely love Sienkiewicz' art as pure form as my tastes have broadened.
Not saying it always works for superhero stuff, but his Stray Toasters and Hendrix biography are amazing stuff.

[MistressMerr]

Reading the issues as a kid I hated the art too, but years later I've come to absolutely love Sienkiewicz' art as pure form as my tastes have broadened.
Not saying it always works for superhero stuff, but his Stray Toasters and Hendrix biography are amazing stuff.

Yeah, back before I actually sat down and read the issues in question, I was always pretty 'WTF' that they stuck him on that book, but when I actually got around to it, I just fell head over heels in love. It takes me forever just to read those issues, because I'm constantly pausing just to take in a page and make *___* faces at it.

[Legerd]

Isn't that what happened to her? She went human feral.
Also, remember when she had to turn into a wolverine to defeat Wendigo?

Do you mean she took on human traits because she was in human form? If that's what you mean then I'd point out she was half human to begin with and say no.
Yup, I remember when she turned into a wolverine, that's the point I was making about illogical power limitations. What's the reason for designing a character whose main power is to turn into animals that are weaker than her human form while running the risk of losing her mind to that form. However, I'm assuming you're referring to her having taken out the Wendigo in animal form. I see that as one of those moments when the writer wanted to do something "kewl" by having Snowbird "mimic" Wolverine to take down the Wendigo so he could then talk her down from her feral rage. It was less about her and more about playing up Wolverine's backstory.

I get that that'd make it harder to read, but you've got to remember that Byrne didn't create her as a goddess; he didn't know what he wanted her to be when he made her a shapeshifter, and her origin was a retcon. So he couldn't do that.

Also, I've always liked her because she can become animals.

Then he shouldn't have retconned her into a demi-god charged with protecting the world from far more powerful god-like beings as it makes little sense with her powerset and levels, IMO. He could have gone another route with her, but decided on this one.
It's cool that you like her being able to shapechange, I don't mind it either, but it lacks any logic as far as her backstory goes. Besides which, the topic is about what Alpha character(s) we don't like and why. Snowbird is my choice and no one is going to change how I feel about her.

[Tawmis]

Vol.2 - to me it's more "Department H: The Miniseries" with a few guest appearances from Alphans, much like Volume 3 was "What The...?!?:An Alpha Flight Special" and Omega Flight was "Civil War Aftermath - The Initiative: Canada."

Mygawd, that was actually hilarious.

[Phil]

Hilarious, yet with a genuine truth and affection.

[Tawmis]

Do you mean she took on human traits because she was in human form? If that's what you mean then I'd point out she was half human to begin with and say no.
Yup, I remember when she turned into a wolverine, that's the point I was making about illogical power limitations. What's the reason for designing a character whose main power is to turn into animals that are weaker than her human form while running the risk of losing her mind to that form. However, I'm assuming you're referring to her having taken out the Wendigo in animal form. I see that as one of those moments when the writer wanted to do something "kewl" by having Snowbird "mimic" Wolverine to take down the Wendigo so he could then talk her down from her feral rage. It was less about her and more about playing up Wolverine's backstory.

Then he shouldn't have retconned her into a demi-god charged with protecting the world from far more powerful god-like beings as it makes little sense with her powerset and levels, IMO. He could have gone another route with her, but decided on this one.
It's cool that you like her being able to shapechange, I don't mind it either, but it lacks any logic as far as her backstory goes. Besides which, the topic is about what Alpha character(s) we don't like and why. Snowbird is my choice and no one is going to change how I feel about her.

I hope no one is trying to "change your mind." My idea, when I made this thread, is that we'd be posting character, that someone else is bound to like. And maybe if someone who was passionate about the character that's named came in to defend them; we might see the character in a different light. So it's not so much about changing the mind, as it is, I would hope, about saying, "Here's some cool things."

For example, currently re-reading Alpha Flight... in Volume One, there's a part where she changes into a Polar Bear to remain undetected by the Master (matching the landscape and other animals)... then she turns into mosquitoes in order to get through some vents to get into the Master's base... I thought those were clever uses of her powers, that she - as Snowbird - could not have done in her human form.

[Le Messor]

I hope no one is trying to "change your mind."

I wasn't, but I've been on the other side of discussions like that often enough to know that it completely comes across that way - which is why my paragraph to Suzene was more 'I understand your position, here's mine'. So, yeah, I'll take the 'heat' on this one (not that it's all that hot. It's only spring.)
Also, Legerd, I was hoping you wouldn't point out that he should've given her a different backstory.

Phil - Yep, that was heartfelt and hilarious! So true.

- Le Messor
"However, if you live alone, deodorant is a waste of good money."

[Legerd]

For example, currently re-reading Alpha Flight... in Volume One, there's a part where she changes into a Polar Bear to remain undetected by the Master (matching the landscape and other animals)... then she turns into mosquitoes in order to get through some vents to get into the Master's base... I thought those were clever uses of her powers, that she - as Snowbird - could not have done in her human form.

You're absolutely right about that, but it still doesn't make sense when it comes to her raison d'etre.

I wasn't, but I've been on the other side of discussions like that often enough to know that it completely comes across that way - which is why my paragraph to Suzene was more 'I understand your position, here's mine'. So, yeah, I'll take the 'heat' on this one (not that it's all that hot. It's only spring.)

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound accusative, it's just I was repeating myself over and over, and wanted to say "my argument ain't gonna change so we might as well let it go".

Also, Legerd, I was hoping you wouldn't point out that he should've given her a different backstory.

LOL, it sounds arrogant of me to say that, but I really think he made a mistake with Snowbird. I do like her, but feel the story logic behind her is flawed which, for me, ruins the character.

[bigbloo]

Yeah, back before I actually sat down and read the issues in question, I was always pretty 'WTF' that they stuck him on that book, but when I actually got around to it, I just fell head over heels in love. It takes me forever just to read those issues, because I'm constantly pausing just to take in a page and make *___* faces at it.

I am a huge fan of Bill Sienkiewicz, and I do the exact same pause and admire routine. I must say a big part of why I loved him in New Mutants was because it was so very different from anything else in comics at that time.

Funny thing about me is, once a character shows up in Alpha Flight, I tend to automatically ignore all the irritating thing about them. Hehehe, I guess I'm just blind to the faults of the ones I love.

[DIGGER]

Digger, I have to disagree with you on Shaman. At first, I thought Michael Twoyoungmen was very boring...But he was later given a lot of back-story during Byrne's run in Volume 1 (separating himself from his tribe to become a doctor in the "white man's world", losing his wife to cancer, losing his daughter after his wife's death, then finally coming back to his roots. Michael became very multi-layered (he's not just a shaman, he's also a widower, a brilliant surgeon, a father, etc...), where Mac did not....We learned very, very little about Mac during Byrne's run. Who was Mac's family (did he have parents, siblings, etc...)? What formed his life and how did he choose to become a scientist/engineer? Why does he not want to wear the battlesuit and be the hero (he's always tried to put somebody else as leader of Alpha)? Later writers tried to add unnecessary darkness to Mac , I guess in an effort to make him more interesting (like Mantlo indicating Mac was partly responsible for Logan being kidnapped by the Weapon X program and being responsible for the creation of Bedlam), while other writers tried to undo that darkness. He's been written horrible inconsistent with each appearance.

Dana

Dana, I'm not saying Shaman is boring (I think he is a great creation). All I am saying is that he was given a chance to develop as a character whereas Guardian wasn't. The fact that we don't know why he didn't want to be the leader or why he was reluctant to wear the uniform in the first place leaves the door open for more character development. Reed Richards didn't go into space to become a superhero, Tony Stark wasn't a hero until circumstances practically forced him to be. The POTENTIAL IS THERE for Guardian to be so much more than what has been done to date. Perhaps a new Alpha series would help. FYI, the darkest day for me was when Mac showed up in the penultimate issue of vol.1 as the arch nemesis of perspiration, the.....ANTIGUARD. THAT WAS A TOTAL WTF...YGBKM MOMENT.

DIGGER
(sorry for the delay in responding. Damn job)