We're all Alpha Flight fans, right...?

[Legerd]

I admittedly hated the Canadian Border thing... like a line drawn by MAN would dictate where a Demi-Goddess' powers should suddenly stop and prove nearly fatal to her? That part I disliked. But her transforming to owls, bears, etc, I actually liked. To me, this is a common thing you hear about Indian type deities, that they take the form of the wolf, the coyote, the eagle, etc. As for her human form, in an owl, she could perhaps gain the abilities of an owl that she didn't have as Snowbird (superior sight, hearing), and in bear form, she got the bear's strength, claws, etc. So the transforming made sense to me... just not the border limit.

I know that many First Nations gods changed into animals, hell a lot of gods from all over the world did, but it never made sense to me that a god meant to be a champion for her pantheon had as her main power, ie: her main method of attack, the ability to transform into animals. As I said, in her human form she was far more powerful and didn't run the risk of going feral. If she had been simply a mortal Inuit with the mystical or mutant ability to change into animals with the limitations she had then I'd be okay with it, but she was meant to be a champion, a warrior sent by the other gods to fight their battle against their greatest foes. And when you look at how powerful the Great Beasts were you have to ask what was she supposed to do against them? "Oh no it's Tundra, I better transform into a polar bear and start clawing him now, 'cause I'm gonna be at it for awhile."

She should have been more like Wonder Woman, a skilled warrior armed with some mystical weapons given to her by the gods designed to take advantage of the weaknesses of the Great Beasts. A bow that fired arrows that could burn or freeze an opponent; a spear that could summon storms or stir the seas; a shield that could deflect the mightiest blows and a club that could shatter glaciers or the Canadian Shield with one blow. Add to that a fur cloak whose mystical properties allow her to survive in any environment from the crushing depths of the ocean to the airless vacuum of space and she'd have been a kick ass hero.

Yes, Byrne only designed AF to be able to go up against the X-men, but that didn't mean he couldn't have fleshed out Snowbird later on. It was a missed opportunity IMO, and nothing has been done with her since, other than what FVL did, to improve her. Honestly, I'd love to see her revamped as a warrior-god and given a solo mini in which she has to destroy the Great Beasts once and for all, I think that would sell and it would be a new, empowered female-oriented title.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Dana, it's difficult for me to agree with the GUARDIAN=BORING because in the first 12 issues, the stories dealt with numerous characters, not just one. There was really no character development for Mac because of the roster of other characters. Yes Puck had his own story for an ish, and the Marrina/Master story lasted a couple but the only spotlight on Guardian was his origin story. The potential for his character was never fully realized. He was obviously a brilliant engineer/designer but his development was cut short by issue 12. The same boring tag could be placed on Shaman as well... gee an Indian who is a Shaman...how original. But it is because we were allowed to see the angst brought out through the introduction of Elizabeth/Talisman that Shaman became a more interesting character.

The only reason I'm writing this is because somebody else already mentioned the "Radius and how he goes to the bathroom thing" before I did! As for my least favourite characters...ALL BUT BYRNE'S... except for the Box/Transformer, man, I really hated that one (loved the original).

DIGGER (unofficial spokesman for the James Hudson/Guardian is not boring party...and yes I'm sure he knows how to party too!)

Digger, I have to disagree with you on Shaman. At first, I thought Michael Twoyoungmen was very boring...But he was later given a lot of back-story during Byrne's run in Volume 1 (separating himself from his tribe to become a doctor in the "white man's world", losing his wife to cancer, losing his daughter after his wife's death, then finally coming back to his roots. Michael became very multi-layered (he's not just a shaman, he's also a widower, a brilliant surgeon, a father, etc...), where Mac did not....We learned very, very little about Mac during Byrne's run. Who was Mac's family (did he have parents, siblings, etc...)? What formed his life and how did he choose to become a scientist/engineer? Why does he not want to wear the battlesuit and be the hero (he's always tried to put somebody else as leader of Alpha)? Later writers tried to add unnecessary darkness to Mac , I guess in an effort to make him more interesting (like Mantlo indicating Mac was partly responsible for Logan being kidnapped by the Weapon X program and being responsible for the creation of Bedlam), while other writers tried to undo that darkness. He's been written horrible inconsistent with each appearance.

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

Honestly, Snowbird, as originally written by Byrne, always seemed a useless character to me. She's a demi-god with flight, superhuman physical attributes, postcognitive abilities and mystical resistance, but her main power was to turn into albino versions of animals native only to the Canadian arctic. WTF? Really? And to make her even more useless, she risked losing herself in the animals mentality if she stayed in animal form too long. Plus, she couldn't transform between animals, having always to revert to her human shape first. And the final kicker, she couldn't cross the Canadian border without it being fatal to her.

See...To me, all of those things don't make her useless, they make her more interesting to read about. Placing limitations on a character can make them far more interesting than a character that has the power of a million exploding suns. I found Snowbird very interesting in that she was a demigod, but she began to long to be human...Even though her godly family forbade it...I found that all interesting.

It seemed nonsensical to give her the power to transform into a polar bear when she already was physically superior, and why turn into an owl when she could already fly? She didn't need to have the keen senses of a wolf to track someone down when she could simply look into the past and see where her quarry had gone. I figure, since she was supposed to be a champion for the Northern Gods, she should have been a warrior-god, naturally adept in all forms of combat and capable of going toe to toe with any physical or mystical menace. After all, what's the use of being able to turn into an arctic hare when facing one of the Great Beasts?
With that said, however, I liked FVL's take on her in the God Squad book during Secret Invasion. She was brave, tough, skilled and used her metamorphic abilities well. Hell, it was she who killed the big bad Skrull god even though Herc got all the credit. I think Snowbird is one of those characters begging to be revamped and reintroduced to the modern readers by having her godhood explored more in depth. And having just typed that I realize how dirty it sounds.

Some of her abilities as an animal would increase her ability to be stealthy, her ability to take on the form of a Great Beast may be dangerous, but it allowed her to take them on as an equal. Her strength as a polar bear is far more than a mere actual polar bear's strength. The ability to become an animal also gives her the ability to blend in/to hide in plain sight. Being able to transform into an animal would have plenty of uses, perhaps even beyond those we can think of.

Dana

[Tawmis]

I know that many First Nations gods changed into animals, hell a lot of gods from all over the world did, but it never made sense to me that a god meant to be a champion for her pantheon had as her main power, ie: her main method of attack, the ability to transform into animals. As I said, in her human form she was far more powerful and didn't run the risk of going feral. If she had been simply a mortal Inuit with the mystical or mutant ability to change into animals with the limitations she had then I'd be okay with it, but she was meant to be a champion, a warrior sent by the other gods to fight their battle against their greatest foes. And when you look at how powerful the Great Beasts were you have to ask what was she supposed to do against them? "Oh no it's Tundra, I better transform into a polar bear and start clawing him now, 'cause I'm gonna be at it for awhile."

She should have been more like Wonder Woman, a skilled warrior armed with some mystical weapons given to her by the gods designed to take advantage of the weaknesses of the Great Beasts. A bow that fired arrows that could burn or freeze an opponent; a spear that could summon storms or stir the seas; a shield that could deflect the mightiest blows and a club that could shatter glaciers or the Canadian Shield with one blow. Add to that a fur cloak whose mystical properties allow her to survive in any environment from the crushing depths of the ocean to the airless vacuum of space and she'd have been a kick ass hero.

Yes, Byrne only designed AF to be able to go up against the X-men, but that didn't mean he couldn't have fleshed out Snowbird later on. It was a missed opportunity IMO, and nothing has been done with her since, other than what FVL did, to improve her. Honestly, I'd love to see her revamped as a warrior-god and given a solo mini in which she has to destroy the Great Beasts once and for all, I think that would sell and it would be a new, empowered female-oriented title.

See, I enjoyed that she was not some uber powerful demi goddess... If she was, why would she need to be a part of Alpha Flight? There is technically no reason for THOR to be on the Avengers. He certainly doesn't need their help. I think giving her limitations makes it so that she's a little more human... (and correct me if I am wrong - she is technically partially human?)... so for me, I enjoyed her being slightly flawed... and not being an over the top kick arse, take everyone down, don't need anyone's help type of hero. Snowbird has showed that she can be vicious and take care of things herself, when needed. And for being their champion, it never said that their champion would do things alone. I think the idea might have been to gather others like her, with powers, to help defend Canada. That said, I could see Snowbird moving to a more assertive, and more aggressive (as in leadership) role. THAT to me would be a natural step for her.

[Flightpath07]

She should have been more like Wonder Woman, a skilled warrior armed with some mystical weapons given to her by the gods designed to take advantage of the weaknesses of the Great Beasts.

So...more like Yukon Jack? Cuz, that is basically him in a nutshell. As I have OFTEN said about YJ, underused character who should be used more. Very powerful, very disdainful, very godly. Very cool!

[Tawmis]

So...more like Yukon Jack? Cuz, that is basically him in a nutshell. As I have OFTEN said about YJ, underused character who should be used more. Very powerful, very disdainful, very godly. Very cool!

I concur. I actually liked Yukon Jack. Could have gone with a better name... but still liked the character.

[Legerd]

I love limitations and flaws in a hero too, but they have to make sense. Snowbird's don't. And again, her physical abilities as an animal are either equal to or less than her abilities in human form so not much point to being able to shapeshift. She's supposed to be a demi-god, but most superhumans she would encounter wouldn't be threatened by even her polar bear form. She doesn't have to be uber powerful like they've made Thor and Hercules, but she should be far above the average superhuman and in the range of the more powerful ones. That's why I used the comparison of Wonder Woman; a powerful warrior who augments her abilities with mystical weapons. Being able to blend in or be stealthy wouldn't help her against the Great Beasts who can sense her divine power and they are the enemy she was created to fight. So what advantage does it provide when fulfilling her principle duty? None.

Yes, she is partially human, but then so is Hercules, and he has done numerous acts of godly immensity even before he got the Skyfather powers. Why is it such a sin for Snowbird (or any Alphan for that matter) to be powerful? Isn't that what she was born to be? How is she expected to be able to fight the Great Beasts with only the ability to change into a handful of animals? If she is meant to stop Tundra then she should either have the appropriate powers or the appropriate weapons to do so. Maybe it's just me, but I expect some in-book logic if I'm going to like a character.

[Tawmis]

I love limitations and flaws in a hero too, but they have to make sense. Snowbird's don't. And again, her physical abilities as an animal are either equal to or less than her abilities in human form so not much point to being able to shapeshift. She's supposed to be a demi-god, but most superhumans she would encounter wouldn't be threatened by even her polar bear form.

Creative writing will work wonders. Look at the trouble STORM had with SNOWBIRD in UNCANNY X-MEN #121. I have re-read that issue a bazillion times (it ranks as one of my favorites of all time in X-Men history). I think it just takes a good writer to make a character interesting and make it seem like even the simplest of powers could still work.

Yes, she is partially human, but then so is Hercules, and he has done numerous acts of godly immensity even before he got the Skyfather powers. Why is it such a sin for Snowbird (or any Alphan for that matter) to be powerful? Isn't that what she was born to be? How is she expected to be able to fight the Great Beasts with only the ability to change into a handful of animals? If she is meant to stop Tundra then she should either have the appropriate powers or the appropriate weapons to do so. Maybe it's just me, but I expect some in-book logic if I'm going to like a character.

Well, Herc never did much but smash things. Herc was pretty much a ball of super strength and endurability. He wasn't shooting lightning from his fingers or anything. So other than lifting heavy things and taking some serious beatings, off hand I can't recall anything spectacular that Herc did. Where as we have seen Snowbird with an assortment of powers; from shape shifting, to preocog powers.

As for logic in comics, that fails from the start. Because the real question is why would Gods need to have an affair with a human to spawn a half-goddess? Why couldn't said Gods just CREATE a being made of magical properties and just have at it? Why would gods need help fighting the Great Beasts?

[Tawmis]

Real quick I want to point out - that I respect everyone's dislike of various characters! I knew that various characters would be listed that someone else was sure to like, and would defend said character, and make for some good convo! Which I think this thread has!

[Legerd]

Creative writing will work wonders.

True, but what's even better is a logical groundwork on which to build a character. After that creative writing is not only easier, it has more directions in which to go. Snowbird could have been a deeper, richer character than she is, and building on her beginnings as they are won't take you very far. Creative writing is good, but it can be stretched too thin when you don't have a lot to work with which leads to readers saying things like: "Character X has never been able to do that before," or "But Character Y's origin says she can only activate her powers under stress," or any other number of complaints they come up with when a writer has a character do something they normally can't. For some of us it invalidates the story, because pulling a deus ex machina after putting a character into a no win situation is poor writing.

Well, Herc never did much but smash things. Herc was pretty much a ball of super strength and endurability. He wasn't shooting lightning from his fingers or anything. So other than lifting heavy things and taking some serious beatings, off hand I can't recall anything spectacular that Herc did.

That's what I'm referring to. Herc has done amazing feats of battle and strength (which is exactly what his skill set is as a god) compare that to "turns into a rabbit" and tell me which is more impressive.

As for logic in comics, that fails from the start. Because the real question is why would Gods need to have an affair with a human to spawn a half-goddess? Why couldn't said Gods just CREATE a being made of magical properties and just have at it? Why would gods need help fighting the Great Beasts?

No, logic doesn't automatically fail in comics. Every type of genre, no matter how mundane or magical, has ground rules or in-story logic on which the writer bases the story. They are guidelines in which the readers expect the writer to work and once they are set down anything outside of them has broken the in-story logic. We accept that superheroes exist in the MU, and we accept that they can do impossible things, but we also expect the writers to stay within the known powers and abilities of the characters otherwise the story fails. We accept Snowbird is a demi-god, and we accept she has been created to fight the Great Beasts, we can even accept the idea she is expected to do it with the powers she has, but if she were to win every battle she has with one of them based on her existing power set... well, that I can't accept. To simply say "she's magical now have at it" would fail the logic Byrne set down in Snowbird's origins, which was: the gods needed to have an affair with a human to spawn a half-goddess. Besides, then you'd be saying she's too powerful.

[Tawmis]

True, but what's even better is a logical groundwork on which to build a character. After that creative writing is not only easier, it has more directions in which to go. Snowbird could have been a deeper, richer character than she is, and building on her beginnings as they are won't take you very far. Creative writing is good, but it can be stretched too thin when you don't have a lot to work with which leads to readers saying things like: "Character X has never been able to do that before," or "But Character Y's origin says she can only activate her powers under stress," or any other number of complaints they come up with when a writer has a character do something they normally can't. For some of us it invalidates the story, because pulling a deus ex machina after putting a character into a no win situation is poor writing.

Now I want to be clear, I wouldn't mind if Snowbird became more powerful, if it was done logically. I am not saying keep her at her current power level - FOREVER! Not at all. So if she pulled off some kind of crazy stunt that she couldn't before (and it was done with some kind of logical reason) - then I am all for it. Speedball, from the New Warriors, for example, went from just bouncing around uncontrollably, to being able to stop things moving - due to his kinetic control (which included bullets being shot at him), to eventually even being able to manipulate time itself. This progressive growth in his powers made him interesting to me. I was invested! If he could stop time right from the start, I probably would not have enjoyed the character as much because there would have probably been very little forward movement (no pun intended). So Snowbird starting off as she did - and should she become more powerful - I'd be okay with it!

That's what I'm referring to. Herc has done amazing feats of battle and strength (which is exactly what his skill set is as a god) compare that to "turns into a rabbit" and tell me which is more impressive.

Well since I consider Herc boring and Snowbird as one of my favorites... You probably don't want MY answer.

No, logic doesn't automatically fail in comics.

Nay! I wasn't saying the logic fails in comics - I meant the fact you sought logic about Snowbird, and if she was supposed to be all powerful, how come she's so "weak" (all things considered). I was saying if the Gods plans were they needed a champion - it makes no logical sense to me why they'd "weaken" their chosen one by having an affair with a human. They're Gods. They resurrect dead people. They appear where ever they want. They do all kinds of magic. Why wouldn't they just MAGICALLY create a champion? A guardian angel, of sorts, if you will? Why even have to do anything with humans to "create" their desired champion? I get it was their story line that Byrne laid out - but if you're looking for logic - you would have to ask yourself, not why Snowbird is weak - but why the gods ever needed to do the wild thing with a human to spawn a half-goddess? Why not just whip one up themselves? They are... after all, gods.

[Legerd]

Now I want to be clear, I wouldn't mind if Snowbird became more powerful, if it was done logically. I am not saying keep her at her current power level - FOREVER! Not at all. So if she pulled off some kind of crazy stunt that she couldn't before (and it was done with some kind of logical reason) - then I am all for it.

On this we agree. I just think she should have started off more powerful than she did. To me it would have been more logical for Snowbird to have been born a warrior-god armed with the weapons she would need to fight god-like beings (the Great Beasts) than to have been born a metamorph with extreme limitations on her power. The main point I'm trying to make is using in-story logic when writing rather than ignoring it.

Nay! I wasn't saying the logic fails in comics - I meant the fact you sought logic about Snowbird, and if she was supposed to be all powerful, how come she's so "weak" (all things considered). I was saying if the Gods plans were they needed a champion - it makes no logical sense to me why they'd "weaken" their chosen one by having an affair with a human. They're Gods. They resurrect dead people. They appear where ever they want. They do all kinds of magic. Why wouldn't they just MAGICALLY create a champion? A guardian angel, of sorts, if you will? Why even have to do anything with humans to "create" their desired champion? I get it was their story line that Byrne laid out - but if you're looking for logic - you would have to ask yourself, not why Snowbird is weak - but why the gods ever needed to do the wild thing with a human to spawn a half-goddess? Why not just whip one up themselves? They are... after all, gods.

Byrne could have gone that route and it would have been fine with me, it would have made more sense. However, it was just as viable for him to go the way he did as we have gods like Hercules who are demi-gods born of gods and mortals and are very powerful. Either way would be within the logic of the MU framework. The problem isn't the way Snowbird was created, it's her power set and power levels she had for the job she was born to fulfill that are illogical.

[ClawMaraud]

Alpha Rider .. The X Men put young mutants at risk all of the time. It is interesting how comic book companies put children as heroes in books. It is definitely a way to get the younger crowd in. In Alpha Flight, though, Laura Dean was always in a depressed nature. The writers should have made her act like a kid after dealing with some of the tougher issues that beleaguered her. Alpha Flight would have become her family and it should have showed more that she cared for them.

[ClawMaraud]

I understand where you're coming from, Suzene...But maybe Walter was in love with Aurora...Maybe that's why he couldn't break things off with her? As far for the experiment to alter Aurora's powers, Walter had selfish motives in doing the experiment, he wanted to drive a wedge between Aurora and Northstar...So he could have Aurora all to himself. Love sometimes makes us monsters.

Dana

Dana, You made a funny. We ARE talking about Sasquatch. 'Monster' definitely fits his character.

[Alpha Rider]

Alpha Rider .. The X Men put young mutants at risk all of the time. It is interesting how comic book companies put children as heroes in books. It is definitely a way to get the younger crowd in. In Alpha Flight, though, Laura Dean was always in a depressed nature. The writers should have made her act like a kid after dealing with some of the tougher issues that beleaguered her. Alpha Flight would have become her family and it should have showed more that she cared for them.

True. But I never was a fan of New Mutans or Power Pack, but at least NM were teens, which I learn to live with.