God Loves, Man Kills...

[suzene]

As for your definition of what constitutes a Christian character, going by that, there are very few religious characters in comics period, Christian or not. Of ones where religion was an active part of their lives in the time frame we're dealing with here, I can think of Kitty and Ororo, and that's faded for the both of them as the years have gone on, while Kurt's faith has been played up more and more. That's about it. In that case, it's hardly that there's a dearth of Christian characters in comics, it's that religion just doesn't tend to be a large part of most superheroes' lives.

There's Wolfsbane as well -- would she have been around at this point?

[MistressMerr]

There's Wolfsbane as well -- would she have been around at this point?

Rahne would have showed up just shortly after this story came out (I think GLMK was Graphic Novel #4 while the New Mutants one was #6), so I'd definitely lump her into the same time period, yeah!

[cmdrkoenig67]

Well, we are hijacking your thread to do it.

For the record, Nightcrawler was mentioned as Christian in Uncanny #165, cover date January 1982 (I believe that was the first mention). God Loves, Man Kills was printed in 1982. Because of the weirdness of the publishing schedule - April-December 1982 came before January-March 1982, I cannot tell if he was revealed before then or not. (I had always felt GLMK was much later, and assumed it was long-established by that time.)

Dana - nothing wrong with hopping denominations, though I know what you're referring to when you say you don't feel normal.

The "not normal" comment was more of a statement on how society views "my kind"...Not necessarily how I feel about myself. I'm as "normal" as I'll ever be....I like who I am.

Reviewing the issue:
Yes, there is a scene in the beginning where the audience is led to believe three X-Men are shot (and the characters believe they died in a car accident - and I agree with the difference between the characters being led to believe in a death and the audience believing it)... and, yep - both those scenes exist. The audience is led to believe Storm and Cyke are killed at the end of chapter 3. It's still only two incidents, which may be too many.
I think the reason they don't cause that much of a problem for me is that they're really far apart, and aren't played up that much as genuine death scenes. At least, not the second so much.

Though I'll let you judge when you read it.

- Le Messor
"Help stamp out and abolish redundancy!"

[cmdrkoenig67]

Have any of you seen this website... http://www.comicbookreligion.com/

I don't know the extent of the "proof" on some of these characters' beliefs, but it pretty much has labeled every character known. Although, it says Nazis religious beliefs are in Nazi, that's really inaccurate...Nazism is sooooo not not a religious belief and didn't the big evil H claim to be a Christian?

Dana

[suzene]

Have any of you seen this website... http://www.comicbookreligion.com/

I don't know the extent of the "proof" on some of these characters' beliefs, but it pretty much has labeled every character known. Although, it says Nazis religious beliefs are in Nazi, that's really inaccurate...Nazism is sooooo not not a religious belief and didn't the big evil H claim to be a Christian?

Dana

I'm trying to decide whether to be amused or exasperated that they feel the need to list LGBT as a religion. Their explanation of why it's been included as such is not helping. And yes, agreed that some of the "proof" there is pretty thin.

[Le Messor]

Have any of you seen this website... http://www.comicbookreligion.com/
I don't know the extent of the "proof" on some of these characters' beliefs, but it pretty much has labeled every character known. Although, it says Nazis religious beliefs are in Nazi, that's really inaccurate...Nazism is sooooo not not a religious belief and didn't the big evil H claim to be a Christian?

Everybody says he claimed to be something else; so with my lack of knowledge of history, I can't say.
I have seen Marvel use Nazism like a religion. - A Swastika turned a vampire, because of the Nazi's faith in it.

Yes, I've seen that site in the past. Like others, I do find their proof spurious.

The "not normal" comment was more of a statement on how society views "my kind"...

Yep, I knew what you meant.

- Le Messor
"Help wanted: Telepath. You know where to apply"

[Le Messor]

As for your definition of what constitutes a Christian character, going by that, there are very few religious characters in comics period, Christian or not.

'My' definition of a Christian character is one who shows traits of being Christian. What are you going by?

I would agree with your second half; but that was never my point. My point was, when Christians are represented in comics, they're almost always evil. I do not feel better about it when there's a heroic character - my example being Scott Summers - who shows not one trait of being Christian, no faith, no commitment to God, just because...
...
Y'know what? I don't know how that sentence ends. I still don't have any idea why you listed Cyclops as a Christian character.

How can he, and characters like him, balance off negative portrayals like Stryker, the Purifiers, the Church of Humanity (and their independent offshoot who tried to take over the world by making Kurt pope), or Rahne's 'father' (sticking to X-Men villains I can remember without looking).
And, when it comes to other religions - how many comics have you read where the main plot is a villain waving around a torah, wearing a yamulke (sp?) and saying 'In the name of Jaweh, Elijah, and Moses, I must to kill all mutants!'?

And that's my point - I hate Sauerkraut. That's all I'm really trying to say.

[Legerd]

MM, I admire your optimism, but I can't share it.
See, I think you and I are speaking a different language here. I think I'll need to define my terms:
When I say Christian, I mean somebody with a strong faith; one that affects their everyday life. Somebody who believes in and cares and thinks about God and Jesus, who follows their teachings and have a faith that is a big part of their life.
What I do not mean is somebody who once showed up in a church. I do not mean somebody who hangs out in a social club once a week, or twice a year.
I definitely do not mean somebody whose parents showed up in church once, or even somebody whose parents were devout. I absolutely do not mean somebody who I haven't been told isn't Christian.

Wolfsbane is a perfect example of the type of Christian you're describing. She has often spoken of her beliefs and has questioned the actions of her team in the past and had to reconcile them with her faith.
Still, even if a character is religious, a writer isn't going to have them proselytizing every time they show up. It can make for a nice subplot in the story if they have to wrestle with their convictions while being vigilantes, but will quickly bog it down if they are constantly exclaiming the glory of god. Plus, not every reader wants to hear about someone's religion. It can be a turn off to many people if they feel they are being preached at, even if that wasn't the writer's intent.

In comics, God, his word, his morality and his people are at best ignored; at worst, mocked, belittled and villified.

I have to disagree with you there. Quite often the references to god are small things, like someone saying "Please god, let them be alright" or something to that effect. It lets the reader know that character has a belief without having to show him/her in church every Sunday. Not to mention that the life of a superhero probably doesn't allow for regular church attendance. Plus, it can be tricky using religion for the heroes. If a character is shown to follow a certain religion, then readers might get upset if he/she does something that is against that religion. Or other readers might get upset if a religion they hate is being shown as "right" because the hero practices it. It's often easier to avoid getting fans upset by simply not using religion very often or at all.
As for mocking or belittling, I've never seen that done in any Marvel/DC book. Maybe in an Indie comic, but I can't see the big two doing that.
Vilified? I can see your point with Stryker and the purifiers, but again there are real world examples of that kind of "Christian". Hell, George Bush Jr. said god told him to invade Iraq. There are people who will use religion to promote their agendas, so why not use it as a plot device if you can tell a good story?

[Flightpath07]

Well, I find that website amusing. I certainly HOPE that nobody is taking ANY of that seriously. I mean, J. Jonah Jamison's religion is listed as "I hate Spiderman"...c'mon!

Again, if your faith does not drastically affect the way you think, feel, act, speak, and live your whole life, then i do not count that as faith; it is more like casual belief.

And that is where this whole topic of religious beliefs in this Thread has gone astray, for me; the whole idea of what it means to be a "Christian" is obviously seen differently by different people. If we cannot agree on what one is, how are we supposed to know who is one, lol?

All I am saying is, if we put down our definitions on paper, they would be drastically different, I am afraid.

- "Quite often the references to god are small things, like someone saying "Please god, let them be alright" or something to that effect. It lets the reader know that character has a belief without having to show him/her in church every Sunday." -

Actually, I disagree with that. Almost anybody, Atheists included, would call on God in that manner when they are worried about somebody. The same person that only says 'God' when it is followed by a curse word, will call out asking Him for help when they have nowhere else to turn - so, for me, that characterization means nothing.

[MistressMerr]

Well, I find that website amusing. I certainly HOPE that nobody is taking ANY of that seriously. I mean, J. Jonah Jamison's religion is listed as "I hate Spiderman"...c'mon!

Services are held every Wednesday.

I have to disagree with you there. Quite often the references to god are small things, like someone saying "Please god, let them be alright" or something to that effect. It lets the reader know that character has a belief without having to show him/her in church every Sunday. Not to mention that the life of a superhero probably doesn't allow for regular church attendance. Plus, it can be tricky using religion for the heroes. If a character is shown to follow a certain religion, then readers might get upset if he/she does something that is against that religion. Or other readers might get upset if a religion they hate is being shown as "right" because the hero practices it. It's often easier to avoid getting fans upset by simply not using religion very often or at all.
As for mocking or belittling, I've never seen that done in any Marvel/DC book. Maybe in an Indie comic, but I can't see the big two doing that.
Vilified? I can see your point with Stryker and the purifiers, but again there are real world examples of that kind of "Christian". Hell, George Bush Jr. said god told him to invade Iraq. There are people who will use religion to promote their agendas, so why not use it as a plot device if you can tell a good story?

Way to take the words right out of my mouth, I pretty much agree with all of this.

How can he, and characters like him, balance off negative portrayals like Stryker, the Purifiers, the Church of Humanity (and their independent offshoot who tried to take over the world by making Kurt pope), or Rahne's 'father' (sticking to X-Men villains I can remember without looking).
And, when it comes to other religions - how many comics have you read where the main plot is a villain waving around a torah, wearing a yamulke (sp?) and saying 'In the name of Jaweh, Elijah, and Moses, I must to kill all mutants!'?

What it comes down to is that that just wouldn't resonate with anybody. In today's society, there are only really two kinds of loony tunes religious offshoots that people are familiar enough with for them to have any real significance and thus be useful in a storytelling capacity, and those are A) Christian fundamentalists like Westboro et al. and B) Muslim extremists. We see these things often enough on the news and whatever, it rings more true that these people do exist, whereas a group with some hardcore evil Jewish or Buddhist agendas just wouldn't have the same effect.

I just have a really hard time seeing Christians as some put-upon, vilified group just because this one time the villain hid his bigotry behind religion and Nightcrawler didn't say anything about it. Considering that the matter of his religion didn't even come up until Uncanny #165, and only that was because Wolverine stumbled across him praying all alone if memory serves, it obviously just wasn't something he talked about and wouldn't have fit in the story. And since I can't really think of any more major examples of Christians being the bad guys in the story, I still can't see how they cancel out the far more numerous examples of them being the good ones like Nightcrawler and Wolfsbane (and sticking with the New Mutants, Sunspot and Cannonball had pretty solid, more quiet religious beliefs, too, didn't they?).

[Le Messor]

Considering that the matter of his religion didn't even come up until Uncanny #165, and only that was because Wolverine stumbled across him praying all alone if memory serves, it obviously just wasn't something he talked about and wouldn't have fit in the story.

Your memory serves you well. Bury your feelings deep down, Merr; they do you credit, but they could be made to serve Marvel.

And since I can't really think of any more major examples of Christians being the bad guys in the story,

Every bad guy in that story and several others.

Wolfsbane is a perfect example of the type of Christian you're describing. She has often spoken of her beliefs and has questioned the actions of her team in the past and had to reconcile them with her faith.

She is an example, but not a perfect one; in her particular case, I've always felt her abusively Catholic upbringing kind of offsets any good her presence does.
Kurt is still a far better example.
I don't know one way or the other about Sunspot or Cannonball.

Still, even if a character is religious, a writer isn't going to have them proselytizing every time they show up. It can make for a nice subplot in the story... I have to disagree with you there. Quite often the references to god are small things, like someone saying "Please god, let them be alright" or something to that effect. It lets the reader know that character has a belief without having to show him/her in church every Sunday.

Actually, that'd probably be pretty boring. I'm not asking for characters to be all 'in yo' face!' Christian all the time. I'm saying that the ones who believe in One God, the ones who talk about Jesus, the ones who follow Christian morality - are almost always shown as villains. I'm not asking to show heroes in church, or show them reading the Bible - but I do want to have some evidence that they actually do it, and take it seriously, and aren't evil because of it.

Also, twist ending! I agree with Flightpath that that kind of prayer means absolutely nothing to their general life.

Plus, not every reader wants to hear about someone's religion. It can be a turn off to many people if they feel they are being preached at, even if that wasn't the writer's intent.
... If a character is shown to follow a certain religion, then readers might get upset if he/she does something that is against that religion. Or other readers might get upset if a religion they hate is being shown as "right" because the hero practices it. It's often easier to avoid getting fans upset by simply not using religion very often or at all.

That kind of cowardice would be easier to take if they had the same problem with showing Christians as villains a lot. Not just directly, but 'symbolically'; does anyone out there think that the Skrull Invasion with its constant 'He loves you' was not a thinly-'veiled' attack on Christian faith?

All this in a country where nearly half the population claims to be "Christian Church Adherents":
http://www.census.gov/compendia/stat.../religion.html

And try to remember that I'm not asking for a bunch of prosteletysing Christian characters in stories about going to church and praying and reading the Bible all the time. What I'm asking for is a real balance against the evil Christians I see so often. While I have never seen somebody who believes as I do represented in a comic, I could take that a lot better if the people who come closest weren't always evil.
I'm 'represented' by a bunch of people with vague 'I believe in some kind of god-like idea' 'faith', but no Christian conviction or commitment, and ravening, cruel, rabies victims spouting Bible verses.

Though, for me, Nightcrawler is very helpful in this regard. While he doesn't represent me well, he's the closest to representing me I've got.

As for mocking or belittling, I've never seen that done in any Marvel/DC book. Maybe in an Indie comic, but I can't see the big two doing that.

It happens. It would be a lot more helpful if I could figure out a specific example to point to, but I can't right now, sorry.
What I'm talking about is the way Christians are often shown as ineffectual; our beliefs are never shown as true in comics - though contradictory ones are; we are often shown as insane or deluded (one of the few positive Christian characters in X-Men couldn't tell the difference between Brood infection and the gift of healing) or think every villain is a demon, even the robotic or alien ones (listen to the musical version of War of the Worlds, but that's a non-comics example); etc...
All this against a backdrop of Marvel and DC having no problem showing multiple gods - but never mine (just a vague 'presence') - and setting up demons as heroes.

Try this example: when was the last time you saw a character say 'no, I won't have sex with you; I'm waiting until marriage'? Out of my thousands of comics, I can think of one issue where that happened, and the character in question (Marvel Boy / Justice) seemed to dump that idea later on. That doesn't exactly show me that they're supportive of my beliefs.

Vilified? I can see your point with Stryker and the purifiers, but again there are real world examples of that kind of "Christian". Hell, George Bush Jr. said god told him to invade Iraq. There are people who will use religion to promote their agendas, so why not use it as a plot device if you can tell a good story?

I'm not asking them to avoid that; I'm asking them to balance it. Take the X-Files - for every evil Christian, there's a good one, so I've always felt it's the most balanced show I've seen in these ways.

Try to keep that in mind - all I'm asking for here is balance.

- Mik
"Hell is truth seen too late."
~ John Locke

[MistressMerr]

Try this example: when was the last time you saw a character say 'no, I won't have sex with you; I'm waiting until marriage'? Out of my thousands of comics, I can think of one issue where that happened, and the character in question (Marvel Boy / Justice) seemed to dump that idea later on. That doesn't exactly show me that they're supportive of my beliefs.

I've never heard a person say that in real life. It's just not that common a stance these days, and while it would be interesting to see a character with those values, it's not an inaccurate representation that it doesn't generally come up.

I'm not asking them to avoid that; I'm asking them to balance it. Take the X-Files - for every evil Christian, there's a good one, so I've always felt it's the most balanced show I've seen in these ways.

Try to keep that in mind - all I'm asking for here is balance.

This is the thing, I really can't think of that many evil Christians beyond Stryker and his goons, or Rahne's dad being an abusive jerk (certainly not a trait unique among superhero origins). I'm really not seeing this supposed imbalance of horrible Christian archetypes that you are.

[suzene]

This is the thing, I really can't think of that many evil Christians beyond Stryker and his goons, or Rahne's dad being an abusive jerk (certainly not a trait unique among superhero origins). I'm really not seeing this supposed imbalance of horrible Christian archetypes that you are.

Chuck Austen. Church of Humanity. Exploding communion wafers.

It's OK. I tend to forget that storyline too, purely out of self-defense.

Even so, I do feel there is some quieter counterbalance, not just in major characters like Nightcrawler and Wolfsbane, but in small acts of comfort by the priests that Kurt's confided in over the years, in the Guthries, who are God-fearing salt-of-the-earth types who refuse to give in to bigotry and hysteria, etc.

I know everyone approaches this topic from a different set of life experiences, but from my own, that rings fairly true -- the extremists of any group are the loudmouths, the ones who get airtime on the local news. The ones who fear power slipping out of their hands are the people you hear about performing and supporting actions that defy any definition of human decency. Hope is found in individuals who reject such thinking and rise above it, but those tend to be the guys who don't make for decent ratings. And when you're looking at a group like the X-Men, whose major shtick is that they're an oppressed minority, it does make thematic sense that The Church is going to crop up as a villain on occasion.

[Legerd]

Here's a nice blog on the issue of Christianity (or the lack thereof) in mainstream comics.

[Flightpath07]

does anyone out there think that the Skrull Invasion with its constant 'He love you' was not a thinly-'veiled' attack on Christian faith?

I must admit I found that phrase to be 'uncomfortable'. And I think you have nailed it on the head; in many ways, it does come across as an attack on Christianity, God, and Jesus.