A Reason For Alpha Flight

[cmdrkoenig67]

What I really don't get, is that Alpha Flight desperately has to have a unique hook for Marvel to relaunch it....Why? Why not a book with a great creative team that wants to do it, with a familiar line-up of heroes and some familiar villains (I'm sure any new writer and artist team would want to throw in something new also...I know I would)?

How many X-books are out there, with all basically the same premise (a team of mutants who are hated and feared by their fellow humans and who fight against evil mutant and evil human alike)? How many Avengers books are there now? It seems insane to me for Marvel to put so many books out that are all so similar to each other, but not give a chance to a book that just might be different enough to stand out and have the very unique-ness they claim they want in a book.

Another thing I'm wondering about is this....Won't Marvel eventually lose the rights to the name Alpha Flight, if they don't use it? They lost the rights to use the name Champions for a team (they didn't use the name for many years, then another company used the name for their team of super beings and now Marvel can't use it)...Couldn't the same happen with Alpha?

Dana

[AKexpress]

During volume 1, Alpha went into space on more than one occasion, hopped to other dimensions, even traveled to other countries for diplomatic reasons...I don't see them as being confined to Canada, at all.

So, you don't believe that casual MU readers have a misconception about Alpha Flight?

[AKexpress]

Alpha has fought Galactus.

100 issues into their run, teamed up with the Avengers, they were finally put in the same room as the World Devourer. They fought Loki too... alongside the X-Men. Both were terrific stories.

Too few, and too far between.

I just think that the creators worked the underdog angle to the detriment of their overall reputation.

[AKexpress]

Perhaps I should have more clear, I meant current Marvel of the past 15 or so years...And of course it's their fault...They haven't used the right approach, their most recent screw up was Omega Flight...Marvel execs sabotaged that series before it came out.

"Sabotage" is such an ugly word
Marvel wants to make a profit off every title it publishes. Right or wrong, they didn't have confidence in the longterm profitability of OF and so they changed it to a mini-series. I agree that the drop in sales shouldn't be seen as a strike against the book. Issue #1's sales figures is the evidence that people are interested!

My point is, right or wrong, Alpha Flight has a stigma attached to it, after all these years, as a lovable loser. And that is taken into account when Marvel is drafting their year's strategy, and considering the products it's offering.

How do we remove that stigma? How does a person pitch Alpha Flight so that any misconception is eliminated?

I think that 1) one has to make certain that any misconception isn't, in actuality, kinda true... which means we have to be honest with ourselves, and 2) if that's the case, then whatever it is that's hurt the title's reputation, that facet has to go away, never to return.

Dana, you said, "What does one ignore and what does one use? Byrne's drama-ridden, in-fighting, non-team (which seemed to sell the best)? The government-directed (or in the case of volume 2, government-controlled) team? Lobdell's "All New, All Different with bad comedy" approach (All New and All Different hasn't really worked for any team, except the New X-Men relaunch in the Seventies)?"

That's it in a nutshell, right there.
My own personal thoughts are, you keep Talisman, Sasquatch, Jeffries, Snowbird, Marrina as the core of a family (moreso than a formal team) operating out of Canada, and you sprinkle in Northstar, Aurora, Wolverine as supporting cast, as well as the Great Beasts as a threat from time to time. Everything else from Alpha Flight's catelogue you put away. No Department H, no Master, no Plodex, no matching uniforms, no commentary on being "Canada's team", absolutely no resurrections of Mac, Heather, Eugene, Michael, Zha Zha or Major.

If you disagree with me, and believe that there's no stigma (right or wrong), then what the hell... resurrect them all, Launch Alpha Flight volume 4, fight the Master while wrangling with Department H in issue #1 and keep watching the monthly sales figures with eagerness.

Otherwise, the decisionmakers at Marvel see things differently. Why? And how can we help change that?

[AKexpress]

What I really don't get, is that Alpha Flight desperately has to have a unique hook for Marvel to relaunch it....Why? Why not a book with a great creative team that wants to do it, with a familiar line-up of heroes and some familiar villains (I'm sure any new writer and artist team would want to throw in something new also...I know I would)?

Amen!

[AKexpress]

Another thing I'm wondering about is this....Won't Marvel eventually lose the rights to the name Alpha Flight, if they don't use it? They lost the rights to use the name Champions for a team (they didn't use the name for many years, then another company used the name for their team of super beings and now Marvel can't use it)...Couldn't the same happen with Alpha?

I'm not sure about that. I thought Marvel was using the name Champions for one of the Avengers: Initiative teams. Or maybe that's how it came up, they wanted to but couldn't...

[Le Messor]

They can use Champions inside but not on the cover.

As to the question of the day - what does Alpha Flight need in order to make it as a series?

I still think the approach that got me reading comics in the first place, the approach that has been the single best-selling series of Alpha so far.
We can't get Byrne back (and if we could, we couldn't get 1984 Byrne back), but wouldn't an Alpha Flight Forever title be great?
Well, I think so anyway.

Byrne's approach worked; iconic costumes, a group of characters people could relate to and care about, time taken to 'get to know' the characters, good writing / art which doesn't alienate the reader...
He gave Alpha Flight lives outside of superheroing (one of the causes and results of the scattershot approach), he developed them as people - and gave us character-driven stories to boot. (There were disadvantages to that in a comic, of course).

He didn't try to copy what everyone else was doing, he wrote good stories on his own terms. I liked that half of them were mystical in nature, and didn't come off as exactly the same threat as last month, but let's say the origin of the powers was magic instead of mutation instead of genetics...

The tone (and the colouring!) were light without being cartoonish, realistic without forgetting that it's a superhero comic.

That's what I think we need; another approach like that.

- Le Messor
"Half the lies our opponents tell about us are not true."

[cmdrkoenig67]

Dana, you said, "What does one ignore and what does one use? Byrne's drama-ridden, in-fighting, non-team (which seemed to sell the best)? The government-directed (or in the case of volume 2, government-controlled) team? Lobdell's "All New, All Different with bad comedy" approach (All New and All Different hasn't really worked for any team, except the New X-Men relaunch in the Seventies)?"

That's it in a nutshell, right there.
My own personal thoughts are, you keep Talisman, Sasquatch, Jeffries, Snowbird, Marrina as the core of a family (moreso than a formal team) operating out of Canada, and you sprinkle in Northstar, Aurora, Wolverine as supporting cast, as well as the Great Beasts as a threat from time to time. Everything else from Alpha Flight's catelogue you put away. No Department H, no Master, no Plodex, no matching uniforms, no commentary on being "Canada's team", absolutely no resurrections of Mac, Heather, Eugene, Michael, Zha Zha or Major.

If you disagree with me, and believe that there's no stigma (right or wrong), then what the hell... resurrect them all, Launch Alpha Flight volume 4, fight the Master while wrangling with Department H in issue #1 and keep watching the monthly sales figures with eagerness.

Otherwise, the decisionmakers at Marvel see things differently. Why? And how can we help change that?

I don't totally agree with you AK, but we do agree on some points (as your "amen" in reply to me attests to in another of your posts).

I'm not a fan of excessive resurrections (as in Mac's case), but I do believe resurrections can be necessary (depending on the character, how it's done, etc...) to a series' success, especially if the character is to play a big part in the series' relaunch, in bringing the team back together or a major storyline.

As far as the casual MU reader who doesn't know Alpha, believes them to be a joke, etc...There are some folks who will never give Alpha a chance, nor will they change their views....We can't help that, nor can any writer/artist. I think finding a way to bring back older fans who abandoned the title, during all of the relaunches/cancellations would also be another good start to any new series. Rebuilding as much of the original fanbase as possible may be as important as creating new fans.

Dana

[Le Messor]

There are some folks who will never give Alpha a chance, nor will they change their views....We can't help that, nor can any writer/artist. I think finding a way to bring back older fans who abandoned the title, during all of the relaunches/cancellations would also be another good start to any new series.

I think a good way to start the new book is kind of how it started in the first place - in other series. Give them enough guest appearances to intrigue the readers of those series; and write them in a way that portrays them as interesting and sympathetic. (Note to prospective writers: the 'sym' part of that last word is very important.)

Get readers used to them before the series starts, rather than just throwing it out there and hoping people notice.

- Le Messor
"Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted, and the trouble is I don’t know which half."
~ John Wanamaker

[AKexpress]

I don't totally agree with you AK, but we do agree on some points (as your "amen" in reply to me attests to in another of your posts).

I'm not a fan of excessive resurrections (as in Mac's case), but I do believe resurrections can be necessary (depending on the character, how it's done, etc...) to a series' success, especially if the character is to play a big part in the series' relaunch, in bringing the team back together or a major storyline.

As far as the casual MU reader who doesn't know Alpha, believes them to be a joke, etc...There are some folks who will never give Alpha a chance, nor will they change their views....We can't help that, nor can any writer/artist. I think finding a way to bring back older fans who abandoned the title, during all of the relaunches/cancellations would also be another good start to any new series. Rebuilding as much of the original fanbase as possible may be as important as creating new fans.

Dana

We agree on alot of things, and I didn't mean to come across as negative if I have.
The market that's most likely to become devoted to AF is the X-Men wing... and that's a large market. It would be nice to see them appear in Uncanny, etc, like Le Messor said, in a guest appearance or two... or twelve, and generate some interest.

The reason I'm not for resurrecting the characters who died vs. the Collective is that tragedy gives the survivors motivation and drama. Elizabeth lost her dad (rocky relationship and all), Jeffries lost his best friends, and Walt was actually there when it happened. I think I'd like a story that shows the emotional journey people really experience... overcoming grief with the help of close friends/family, and finding happiness again.

One thing, though, I love the Guardian suit! It's just about the greatest superhero costume ever conceived. Michael Pointer wearing it works for me. That "Omega" style suit he's been wearing is a real buzz-kill, though. Bring back the Maple Leaf, eh.

[cmdrkoenig67]

We agree on alot of things, and I didn't mean to come across as negative if I have.
The market that's most likely to become devoted to AF is the X-Men wing... and that's a large market. It would be nice to see them appear in Uncanny, etc, like Le Messor said, in a guest appearance or two... or twelve, and generate some interest.

The reason I'm not for resurrecting the characters who died vs. the Collective is that tragedy gives the survivors motivation and drama. Elizabeth lost her dad (rocky relationship and all), Jeffries lost his best friends, and Walt was actually there when it happened. I think I'd like a story that shows the emotional journey people really experience... overcoming grief with the help of close friends/family, and finding happiness again.

Technically, Liz also lost a sister in Heather, since Heather and her parents raised Liz after her mother died and Michael left to grieve (and eventually became Shaman). John Byrne killed Mac because his death would have the most impact on the team (and Byrne found him the most boring to write)...Unfortunately, that didn't stop writers from bringing Mac back again and again and again.

One thing, though, I love the Guardian suit! It's just about the greatest superhero costume ever conceived. Michael Pointer wearing it works for me. That "Omega" style suit he's been wearing is a real buzz-kill, though. Bring back the Maple Leaf, eh.

I despise Pointer, as some other Flight fans do...I do not want to see him return to Canada and/or don the maple leaf uniform ever again.

Dana

[Legerd]

I think we are all in agreement that the problems plaguing AF can be laid at the feet of Marvel writers, artists, editors, etc. The characters are fictional, they have no control over how they are written and drawn, so when people say they suck or are bad, Marvel should see that as a critique of their work and not a fault of the characters. Unfortunately, they seem to think it is the fault of the characters and have done everything to not use them in their own title. Own up Marvel.

I think resurrecting the originals would be the perfect "emotional journey" for each of the surviving AF members. Talisman and Earthmover seek to bring back Shaman; Jefferies wants to bring back Diamond Lil; Sasquatch and Snowbird (as the last remaining founding members) want to bring the whole team back. The story is about reviving Alpha Flight, both the dead members and the concept of the team, as well as watching the surviving members deal with the deaths of and the chance to resurrect their friends and family.
Guilt, loyalty, love, desperation, all these emotional motivators would drive the story, build the characters and would be the real draw for readers. Treat the characters as important rather than as tertiary, throw away ones, in a well written story and it won't matter what baggage came before.

If we're tossing new names for the team around, I've said it before: The North Guard. It's dynamic, describes what the team is all about and doesn't leave readers scratching their heads as to what it means.

[Powersurge]

I think there are alot of good points raised throughout this thread.

I won't bother to reiterate them all, but I'll say that guest appearances are a good place to start. And sticking with a proven formula instead of getting experimental would probably be a good idea too, argueably. But IMO, you can get experimental once you've established a team. And at that point your can also devote significant space to individual character developement ... even over several issues as opposed to just one issue.

There's no I in team. lol

Something's that I always thought were central to the AF idea ...

The Weapon Alpha battlesuit. I like Mac, he was easily my favourite Alphan, but he's dead and should remainng so ... PLEEEEEAAASSE!!!! Let his spirit rest! lol
But the battle-suit stays. As Heather well-demonstrated, anyone can climb into make it work. And both it and it's skin, together, are iconic. It is the Canadian equivalent of Captain America's shield ... or maybe even Thor's Hammer. Ye swear oaths upon this!

Mac's death and Heather's history of service add value to the suit ... like an ancient sword with a proud legacy.

Department H. Like Mac and Sasq. this has been one element of Marvel's Canadian mythos that has been in place since the beginning, ie. preAF vol.1. I'm not so sure if having AF as their lackeys would work, because, as mentioned in the negative, this would limit them in ways no other superteam is and force them to often in work in purely domestic situations ... or there'd be HUGE ramifications for Canada, politically speaking. But whatever the specifics of the AF/Department H relationship, I think Department H should exist.

A neat idea might be to have AF existing in a most informal relationship with the government, and at times contracting their services out to the government, but with Department H having access to a number of less supers, whether officially on the "pay roll", or informally or otherwise unwittingly acting on the Department's behalf.

I tend to envision Department H as government writ small, in which the people in charge are realtively well intentioned, or at least have cold logic on their side, but there are things that go on that the leaders aren't necessarily aware of and might not necessarily condon if they did. And of course, if and when they do find out about these things, maintianing the crediblity of the Department will be priority one, because the leaders believe that it is a necessity in the modern world.

This would be an interesting source of new superheroes, who might not be world stompers and whose activities are isolated to various geographical regions, some of whom might become rivals, friends, lovers, villains, etc. of AF.

In any event, Department H is as iconic within the context of Marvel's Canada mythos as the Mapleleafed battle-suit. It should stay, but defined in it's own right apart from AF, and vice versa.

Established characters, I agree, woud be key. No need for resurrections though. We still got Sasq, Northstar and Aurora, along with others folks seem to like. And like I said, anyone can wear Hudson's battlesuit. In fact, he can ultimately have a show down with Pointer, and kick his arse outta the Mapleleaf skin.

Villains however, AF has always been weak on villains, IMO. And the only times they fougt established Marvel villains, it was IMO incredibly cheesey, with the battle with Galactus being a prime example. So, it's not just the quality of villains. Which brings us aorund to my last point ...

Writing/plotting. All of the best ideas in the world will fail miserably if handled by a poor writer, even as otherwise bad ideas can turn out impressive if handled by a good writer.

Forget about getting Byrne back. Is Clairemont still around??? Better yet, can we get them BOTH?

[Phil]

How's about an Alpha Flight Forever mini by Byrne picking up from his last issue?

[Le Messor]

How's about an Alpha Flight Forever mini by Byrne picking up from his last issue?

That'd be really cool, if we could get him writing / drawing like he did back then.

- Le Messor
"Hang up and drive."