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A Reason For Alpha Flight
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  1. #1
    I'm a RealWyldeChild Alpha Flight
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    Default A Reason For Alpha Flight

    There has been plenty of talk on this site lately (actually, for the last few years) that revolves around various discussions about what reason can we come up with for having an Alpha Flight team again, a reason that would be good enough to (a) cause Marvel to believe it would sell as a series, and (b) make sense in that Marvel seems to feel that previous AFs have lost readers due to something new being needed.

    Many people here have suggested ideas. Some new ideas, some not-so-new.

    Many of us believed that John Byrne had it right, or did it best, when it comes to AF. So, many times suggestions came up in regards to how JB wrote AF in the beginning, how they were a team made up of individuals who did not always get along, and showing that individual stories could be told in a team book.

    There has also been talk about how AF needs to interact with the Marvel U on a regular basis, to attract attention and fans and keep them relevant.

    And most people here agree that one of the things that makes AF Alpha Flight-y is that they are Canadians as opposed to Americans (who seem to have the vast majority of the superheroes).

    Well, here is my idea...

    Take John Byrne's original idea. Modernize it, and you have got an AF that is bold, exciting, and will sell.

    By this, I mean that Alpha Flight should be a group of Canadian superheroes, working for the Canadian government, with two mandates; (a) protection of Canada from super-powered baddies, and (b) to bring in all of the Canadian government employees with super-powers who are working illegally in America. In other words, they have a mandate to bring back to Canada such people as Northstar, Aurora, and Wolverine, at any and all costs.

    This, as you can imagine, means that AF will be a superhero team based in Canada, who, besides fighting bad guys and gals within their own borders, will quite often be throwing-down with recognizable superheroes and super-teams in the US of A. They may be good guys, but when they get a sniff of one of their own who have left to fight evil in the US, they spring into cross-border-action and try their damnest to capture and retrieve said persons.

    Welcome to a great many great battles with superheroes! Welcome to a great many guest appearances in other titles! Welcome to sales!

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  2. #2

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    That is an extremely sensible approach. One that would work....but the problem comes down to this; Who would buy a superhero book about Canadians? Who would care about it? In the mind of Marvel as a company, they likely assume Alpha Flight has no market. People have to be encouraged to care about these characters, as you said, by exposure to them, but IMO it needs to be about the individual characters first, so people don't go "Oh that Canadian team, who cares?" The nationality in most cases should come later. It shouldn't matter at all, but it does.

  3. #3
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    How about all the interactions such a proposal that bring with international teams? Big Hero Six, the Winter Guard, American teams; not a "World Tour" but working with and against teams around the world to do what's right; fight SHIELD about Apocalypse's safe houses; work with the Winter Guard against the Great Beasts; work with Big Hero Six against Kang's followers; work with the Avengers against the Badoon; destroy a time-travel device and tick off the Avengers,.....
    Keep your stick on the ice.

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  4. #4
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    Mokole, you have picked up the spirit of the thing!
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  5. #5
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    As I recently mentioned in another thread, there has over the past couple of years an window of oppurtunity to make Alpha Flight relevent by making Canada relevent within the context and wake of Civil War. Here it would have been Canada -- which has long had it's own SHRA and was morally opposed to the U.S.'s implamentation of it's own -- acting as a safehaven for anti-reg'ers, and having to deal with SHRA enforcers ... kind of a reversal of the classic Alpha Flight-Wolverine formula. This moral stance would of course have require the formation of a new Alpha Flight, and probably the reinstitution of the Gamma and Beat programs. There would have been plenty of Yank heroes to draw from to act as PR support for the early team, and lots of established heroes/villains for AF to establish it's cred against. And with all of this having led up to Siege, well, by the end of it Canada would either be the 51st State or have it's own cred well established, along with that of it's heroes.

    As for the "international concept"; I like the idea not so much as the theme for an Alpha Flight title, but as the theme for an ongoing title, "Marvel International" or something, which would have a rotating spolight on different international Marvel hero-teams and maybe even solo heroes. Not one of those comics where there are five stories going on in any single issue, 'cause they suck and for one can't be bothered with them. Or even single issue stories. They might be, but they might also be multi-issue stories, but ulitmately, after say 4 issues max, the spolight would shift over onto some other team ... and undoubtedly eventually make it's way back to our favourite.
    "You just decided *all by yourselves* that you are the Earth's protectors. And that you, and *only* you, not your teammates or family, are trustworthy enough to include in the process..."

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  6. #6
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    I am thinking a bad-arse Alpha squad. Regardless of who you want on it, I am thinking of one that takes no prisoners and only asks questions after they kick butt.
    Wild Child, of course, would be a great team member, with his ferocious savagery (time to bring him back from the dead!). Talisman would also be good, very powerful.

    In this version of AF, think US Agent rather than Captain America, or think Thunderbolts rather than Avengers. Big, bad, powerful, and totally committed to doing what their government asks of them. One part Alpha Flight, one part Ultimate Alpha Flight.
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  7. #7
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    IMHO I like everything except Alpha Flight hunting down other Canadian heroes for their government. Hunting down heroes who are Canadian "property" seems very un-heroic. I know its that very premise that introduced the team. But they where designed to be a X-Men foil. In the Alpha series we saw them evolve from that idea. Doesn't Northstar, Aurora, and Wolverine have every rite to work and live where they want. I don't know if dual citizenship was ever addressed for the 3 just mentioned. But if they moved their legally what grounds would Canada have. I love the international approach to the book. But it just doesn't sit well with me if my heroes blindly follow what their handlers tell them to do. If following these orders was a source of contention for the team than it could work for me.
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  8. #8
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    "If following these orders was a source of contention for the team than it could work for me. "

    I could agree wityh at least some of the members of the team not always liking what they are asked to do. Mainly, this is a way to have them interact with the Marvel Universe as a whole. But the AF I am envisioning is more like the ones that originally showed up in X-Men, fighting heroes for control of Wolverine. Now, you have an AF that not only fights baddies, but heroes as well. This reminds me of the Avengers/Defenders wars of the 70s/80s. It used to be, that heroes did not always see eye to eye, so they fought. Much the same thing going on here.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dfense75 View Post
    IMHO I like everything except Alpha Flight hunting down other Canadian heroes for their government. Hunting down heroes who are Canadian "property" seems very un-heroic. I know its that very premise that introduced the team. But they where designed to be a X-Men foil. In the Alpha series we saw them evolve from that idea. Doesn't Northstar, Aurora, and Wolverine have every rite to work and live where they want. I don't know if dual citizenship was ever addressed for the 3 just mentioned. But if they moved their legally what grounds would Canada have. I love the international approach to the book. But it just doesn't sit well with me if my heroes blindly follow what their handlers tell them to do. If following these orders was a source of contention for the team than it could work for me.
    I think Aurora's working in Canada with Kyle now anyway, but agreed on the dislike of previous Alpha Flight members being hunted down by a new roster. It's a bit too Dark Reign: Canada for my tastes. I also agree with Flightpath's two major points: the team needs to be Canadian while also maintaining a position of some relevance within the Marvel Universe -- you can't just park them in Canada, deal with events that only affect Canada, and expect most of the audience to give a hoot just because they used hang out with Wolverine.

    If there was an Alpha Flight relaunch, something I'd like to see avoided is the "All New, All Different Alpha Flight" take. A team that was half comprised of new characters didn't translate to sales under Seagle. A team that was almost entirely newbies did even worse for Lobdell. Alpha Flight does not have so large a fanbase that any book bearing the title can afford to be "A Bunch Of Guys You've Never Heard Of, Guest-Starring Alpha Flight" and hope that people warm up to the new cast.

    What would likely work best for an Alpha Flight book in terms of generating interest would be to get the band (or what's left of it) back together -- to go heavy on the old guard to get as many of the hardcore Alphans and X-Fans as possible interested. Sasquatch, Box, the Beaubier twins, Snowbird, and Talisman make up a good starting roster, Mar could possibly have grown into something useful and has ties to Atlantis, and if the writer's feeling exceptionally generous, Earthmover could be used as something other than a joke. There's a good mix of interpersonal tension there -- things should not be smooth between Talisman and Earthmover, especially if Elizabeth is put in the position of having to pick up where her father left off in mentoring him, everyone would just be waiting for Plodex Jr. to go evil, and Box and Snowbird have both recently lost people they're close to, but while Madison is grieving the death of his wife and lost opportunities, Narya is rediscovering the joys of mortal life. There's even something of an inversion of the old Sasquatch/Aurora/Northstar triangle to be played with, as the twins are getting along well nowadays while Sasquatch is just the ex-flame, failed scientist and team-leader, and generally the odd man out.

    As for what the premise would be, I'd say aim high. The joke about MU Canada has always been that, between Dept.H and Weapon X, snowy, benevolent Canada has the most evil government ever. So have a new department come in and get the old team together specifically with the goal of taking on these shadowy, clandestine weaponization projects that keep sprouting up. They're Canada's mess and Canada is going to clean it up, by God! It fits in with the theme of Marvel's upcoming Heroic Age, there's a variety of stories that could be told within that overarching arc with room for guest-stars and team-ups, and even the possibility of getting outside of Canada, depending on where the antagonists have their hooks. More importantly, it pits the team up against a legitimate threat that the majority of the readers are familiar with and, in doing so, refutes the idea that Alpha Flight is best treated as a joke team.

  10. #10
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    The person I most agree with here is Suzene (obviously Dfense, too, but he... or she?... sorry, I've just realised I don't actually know... had less to say).

    The 'hunting down all our expatriots' thing would make them look fascist - unheroic. If I wanted to read about unheroic superheroes, I'd look at v2 again, ever. Something I plan not to do.
    The difference between hunting down Wolverine in Uncanny #120-121 and the suggestion here is that Wolverine was an AWOL soldier, with a lot of Canadian money invested in him. The twins and Jeffries are just people who happened to work for the government for a while. (AFAIK, Aurora is still in Canada, btw.)

    The idea of making them more bad-ass just sounds like a return to the 90s era of comics - and nobody wants that.

    Suzene's idea of them taking down that kind of 'evil government conspiracy' thing, especially while working for the government, works much better for me.

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  11. #11
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    Suzene nailed it. I think that could be a winning formula...and I am male
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  12. #12
    Semper ubi sub ubi Alpha Flight
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    I want to see AF go rogue. Not only do they not have ties to the government, they burn those bridges and don't look back. With Talisman leading the team, they take up a mission of some sort (bringing the old guard back from the dead, fighting a new Great Beast threat, or battling some new mystical menace) which takes them around (and off) the globe and into conflict with various heroes, teams and evil organizations. They don't have the luxury to play fair, and act like "nice, polite Canadians", rather the mission forces them to do things that make it appear they've gone bad.
    They gather what Alphans are still around, either repowering the mutant members that had lost their powers, or maybe providing a Guardian-style suit to them (Windshear, I'm looking at you). This, of course, would bring them up against the X-men as well as anyone enforcing the SHRA in the US. Along the way other heroes can join them (Dr. Strange isn't up to anything is he?) to help, some staying some not, some falling along the wayside as they go. They can show up in Latveria to either stop Dr. Doom or team up with him. Later they go to Wakanda to seek out BP's help. Afterward they head to England and end up going against Captain Britain who doesn't realize AF is actually on a heroic mission.
    I want to see the status quo kinda shaken up as far as what everyone thinks a "typical" AF story is. Very tense stories filled with lots of character building, driven by an over-arcing plot that forces the heroes to push beyond the boundaries they have.

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  13. #13
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    "What would likely work best for an Alpha Flight book in terms of generating interest would be to get the band (or what's left of it) back together -- to go heavy on the old guard to get as many of the hardcore Alphans and X-Fans as possible interested. Sasquatch, Box, the Beaubier twins, Snowbird, and Talisman make up a good starting roster, Mar could possibly have grown into something useful and has ties to Atlantis, and if the writer's feeling exceptionally generous, Earthmover could be used as something other than a joke. There's a good mix of interpersonal tension there -- things should not be smooth between Talisman and Earthmover, especially if Elizabeth is put in the position of having to pick up where her father left off in mentoring him, everyone would just be waiting for Plodex Jr. to go evil, and Box and Snowbird have both recently lost people they're close to, but while Madison is grieving the death of his wife and lost opportunities, Narya is rediscovering the joys of mortal life. There's even something of an inversion of the old Sasquatch/Aurora/Northstar triangle to be played with, as the twins are getting along well nowadays while Sasquatch is just the ex-flame, failed scientist and team-leader, and generally the odd man out.

    As for what the premise would be, I'd say aim high. The joke about MU Canada has always been that, between Dept.H and Weapon X, snowy, benevolent Canada has the most evil government ever. So have a new department come in and get the old team together specifically with the goal of taking on these shadowy, clandestine weaponization projects that keep sprouting up."


    It's a good thought(s) , but here is my problem with the above; Who, outside of current Alpha Flight fans, would care about any of this stuff?

    Unfortunately, the answer is, Nobody.

    And that is why we do not have an Alpha Flight.

    Again, the "putting them at odds with other super teams, for reasons that not only make sense but also go back to the original idea behind the team" is what I think would work.

    You take this new team (by new, I mean badass, take charge, no nonsense guys and gals, some brand new and some established) and you throw them into the X-books, trying to regain Wolverine and Jeffries and Northstar. They come in like thunder (the rumbling noise, not the horse from volume 3), bash some heads, kick arse all over the place, and get narrowly defeated. Heck, at some point, have them drag a Jeffries back to Canada, and have the X-Men come along and invade Canada to take him back; that'd be cool, wouldn't it?

    The idea is, introduce them in other books, Make people like them, respect them, care about them, be fascinated by them.

    Now, throw them into an Avengers story or two, have them team up to fight off some big menaces. Have them be a little "cold" towards the Avengers, a little untrusting becuz they are Canada's team representing Canada and they won't take no crud from nobody. Have them save the day, using strength and intelligence - but also show that they do not trust heroes outside of Canada's borders.

    Now, you have them as bad guys, "foils" if you will. You also have them as good guys, totally able to save the day. Willing to team up with others when it is necessary. You have now shown them to be ruthless, nasty, untrusting, and very very powerful and unpredictable.

    Now, you give them a special of their own, or a mini-series. Keep the guest appearances up, and keep them full of attitude and raw power.

    Now, now you have the recipe for a successful comic series. A series called Alpha Flight.
    Last edited by Flightpath07; 04-25-2010 at 06:31 AM.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flightpath07 View Post
    It's a good thought(s) , but here is my problem with the above; Who, outside of current Alpha Flight fans, would care about any of this stuff?
    Unfortunately, the answer is, Nobody.
    I think you'd be surprised. I get the impression a lot of people who aren't current fans do like and care about Alpha Flight, they just haven't seen it since 1985. (Or the year Byrne quit, whichever is closer.) When I hear comics fans mention them it's with respect and care at least as often (if not more) as with disdain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flightpath07 View Post
    You take this new team (by new, I mean badass, take charge, no nonsense guys and gals, some brand new and some established)
    Please watch the video at this link. (Yes, the same one I linked to above.)
    You might understand better my reaction to what you're saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flightpath07 View Post
    They come in like thunder
    Do you mean the ho-
    Quote Originally Posted by Flightpath07 View Post
    (the rumbling noise, not the horse from volume 3)
    Way to preempt my bad puns, dude.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flightpath07 View Post
    The idea is, introduce them in other books, Make people like them, respect them, care about them, be fascinated by them.
    The problem is, I think everything you're suggesting would acheive the exact opposite of that. Nobody's going to like the team of 'good guys' who keeps coming in just to lay the smack down on 'their' team. They'd have to keep losing (as you mention), and the fans are not going to respect that. The people you describe are ruthless, nasty, cold, bad-ass, and untrusting; and that's not the way to get people to care about them. (Again we're in the 90s; see the link). Yet another group trying to look bad-ass (and failing, because they have to keep losing) would be dull, dull, dull! rather than fascinating. Trying to look bad-ass and losing all the time is not the way to gain respect. Fighting established teams and winning is not the way to fans' hearts - and by definition, this will be the fans of those teams.
    What I care about - and I think a lot of people do - is human stories; stories about people being people, not just a bunch of tough guys hitting each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flightpath07 View Post
    Heck, at some point, have them drag Jeffries back to Canada, and have the X-Men come along and invade Canada to take him back; that'd be cool, wouldn't it?
    No, sir, it would not. Not to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flightpath07 View Post
    have them team up to fight off some big menaces.
    Yes! This part-this is a much better answer. Have them team up. Have them help the other teams, even prove themselves against them - by fighting with them, not against them. Have them even prove themselves better at some things than those teams; the Avengers face a mystical menace just like Alpha have been doing all this time - so they need Alpha's expertise to help them. Alpha come in and are helpful to them, and get along (though certain members have friction with certain others; I don't have anyone specific in mind). This will gain respect, and like, and could be handled fascinatingly.

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    Last edited by Le Messor; 04-25-2010 at 07:56 AM.

  15. #15
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    Le Messor, nobody here is saying that a bad-ass character has to have little or no characterization behind them. Perhaps AF could be the next wave of really good characters, by actually making tough characters who have real personalities and are real characters beyond their punching other peoples' lights out!

    Likewise, nobody here is suggesting that they need to lose all their fights. Cuz, that would make them perennial losers, the brunt of jokes, like...oh, I dunno...maybe like Alpha Flight has been for quite some time?

    I also do not believe in putting round pegs in square holes (who digs a square hole, anyways!?). No Sasquatch on this team, not the right personality. Likewise, no Talisman or Snowbird. i actually beleive that leaving these three OFF of the team, creates interesting future moments for when you do see one of these three characters; Why are they not on the team? Do they have moral objections? Were they never asked to participate? What do they think of this team? How will they interact?

    For me, i'd make this team be led by a re-powered Windshear (hard-air molecule formation and control), his teammates being Wyre (genetically altered assassin with enhanced strength and speed and reflexes, plus uses guns and has central-nervous-system-bonded wires that come out of him), a re-animated Wild Child in his "bad-boy pierced mode" (nasty savage with little to no morals), Murmur (spicy French woman with a 'tude who controls people psionically through touch), Yukon Jack (demi-god, very powerful, very moody), Earthmover (powerful but little-trained mystic with Omega level powers), and Daisy, as it never actually been established that she wasn't a Canadian citizen originally (super strength).
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