Alpha Flight discussion at CBR's Robot 6 / Brevoort blog

[Adam]

I haven't seen this linked here yet. The article and discussion are here:

http://robot6.comicbookresources.com...but-in-canada/

Based on comments Tom made recently here:

http://marvel.com/blogs/TomBrevoort/entry/1612

[Flightpath07]

You know, this was a really interesting read, both of these articles. Although I categorically disagree with a lot of what is being said, I listened, and I liked the thoughtful dialogue going on.

THEN...
Then I read Brevoort's flippant answer to the question about Crystar, wherein he laughed and said that Crystar was waiting for a chance to join Alpha Flight.

D*&N, that man knows how to piss in the face of the people, doesn't he?!?

Note to self: stock up on black magic books and Tom Brevoort voodoo dolls.

[varo]

i didn't read the comment as being rude, i think he just meant that the same goes for crytsar as goes for alpha flight, they are just waiting for a proposal that makes sense.

thats just the way i read it.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I'm intrigued by the response by a poster named harlequin7 over at Marvel...

"i think tom's point is tied to the fact that the fans of alpha flight are not numerous enough to just do a book for them. All the previous alpha flight books were for "the fans" as well and look what happened there.

I want, with all my heart for there to be a she-hulk book again with jen walters doing her lawyer stuff like in slott's run, but its not going to happen cos it don't sell enough. The same applies to AF. Just accept the book is not that popular and as such wont get made again until AF gets some fresh ideas and approaches. FVL may be a fan but if he cant come up with an idea that editorial think will fly, which would seem the case, then he's not gonna get a crack at it."

What follows is much of what we as fans already know, I don't feel it's a rant, but more of just my own personal examination....Maybe I should post this on other boards too (please forgive my long-windedness, that's not really a word is it...LOL)...

I feel he's wrong about all previous Alpha Flight being "for the fans"...Every successive series after Volume One was flawed by something (or many things) which ended up crippling the book (especially with fans)...

Volume 1 was the biggest success, especially in the first few years (with Byrne at it's helm)...He fleshed out these mystery characters in very human ways and had the unique approach of a team scattered across the vastness that is Canada, coming together when they needed to (to this day, no book has really had this this same approach), but they all had their separate lives and even lived hundreds of miles from each other (they were more of a "non-team" than the Defenders always touted themselves as). They didn't have government support (during Byrne's run) or the support of other native super teams and that gave them the somewhat unique feeling of being totally on their own that many other Marvel and DC teams didn't have. Where the Avengers had the West Coast Avengers, The Defenders, the Fantastic Four and/or the X-Men to back them up (as well as the federal govt) when needed...The Alphans had only themselves, they were the only super team for a country bigger than the United States. I found all of these "hooks" to be fascinating. After Byrne left, I felt they lost many of the things that made them special when Alpha regained govt support (and lived in the same home base, was always together as a team, etc...) and came together under one roof...It made the team look like Avengers knock-offs, to me. Mantlo's handling of the team also damaged them badly. I've enjoyed some of his work on other series (Rom, Micronauts, The Champions), but his work on Alpha was mostly just bad.

Volume 1 Alpha Flight sold 130 issues, had 2 Annuals, an appearance in Marvel Fanfare, also the team was involved in numerous crossovers and guest appearances (the Alpha Flight/FF crossover by Byrne, Contest of Champions, X-Men/Alpha Flight, 2 Avengers "crossovers", Secret Wars 2, Infinity Gauntet/Crusade, etc...).

In my opinion and that of many other fans...Volume 1 was a success.

Volume 2 was a book about government patsies being lied to and manipulated by secretive, unscrupulous superiors, it had almost a whole new cast and in the end, the team was not about a team of heroes but a team of misled, brain-washed stooges...Not particularly endearing with many fans. I also feel many times, that the art hindered the series.

Volume 2 sold 22 issues, had 1 Annual and crossovers with the X-Men and the Inhumans.

Volume 3...Holy heck, where do I start? A supposedly "played for comedy" nearly all-new cast...Add in the premise stolen from the all new, all different X-Men of the seventies? Shipping the original team to outer space? Bringing the original team back, but only in the form of temporal doppelgangers at the series' end? Who thought any of this was a good idea?

Volume 3 was twelve (not very funny) issues, no annuals.

Ugh.

Volume 4...I know, I know...many fans have claimed that Omega Flight isn't Alpha Flight Volume 4, but I feel it is and Marvel has even been evasive on this point (some at Marvel claimed this was Alpha Flight's last chance to be a success, then in another breath claiming this wasn't Alpha Flight, but something new...Make up your flipping minds, already!)...Omega Flight is/was Volume 4 in more ways than one, but it too was flawed...Yet it sold marvelously. It's worst handicaps however killed the book, those being Marvel's execs' choice to hack the book from an ongoing title to a 5 issue mini (alienating both fans and the creative team on the series)...Then not renewing the series, when they saw it sold like hotcakes. I also believe that saddling a book with "Avengers stand-ins" was a bad idea to begin with...Since they were all characters somebody would eventually want to have brought back to the States to use in other teams and formats (Beta Ray Bill and U.S.Agent being the best examples of this, Pointer has even been removed from Canada...Thank Dog)...How long before somebody brings Arachne back to the States to use in some other series? Volume 4/Omega Flight didn't stand much of a chance when marvel sabotaged it soon after it's conception.

I feel most non-fans are just wrong-headed in how they perceive Alpha Flight and why it has failed, the blame for this may be mostly due to Marvel itself.

Dana

[varo]

i agree.

but lets not forget fred van lente made hercules interesting, so i firmly believe that a good creative team can make any book interesting, not vice versa (lets not forget about grant morrisons animal man run.......who?)

[cmdrkoenig67]

i agree.

but lets not forget fred van lente made hercules interesting, so i firmly believe that a good creative team can make any book interesting, not vice versa (lets not forget about grant morrisons animal man run.......who?)

A book can't make a good creative team interesting?

I get what you mean (I'm just teasing)...I also agree. Any new Alpha series needs a good creative team, not multitudes of fill-in artists (like Volume 2 had).

However...Bill Mantlo had great successes with the Micronauts, Hulk and with Rom, but he was not the best pick for Alpha Flight...By any stretch (IMHO)...He went out of his way to "destroy" the team. he was very successful up to that point on many projects and was thought of as very talented. I didn't care for Mignola's art either (even though I enjoy his art now). Jim Lee's art helped save the series for me, midway through and I ended up staying through even more dreck (via Hudnall IMHO). I know Hudnall tried to repair Mantlo's damage to the team, but I didn't care for his writing or for Calimee's art (who I also think has gotten better). My point...Good creators/creative teams can also ruin a series (Lobdell, anyone?)...Not throwing any shade on Van Lent or saying he wouldn't do a great job (especially considering he seems to be a big fan of the original Alpha Flight).

Dana

[Mokole]

Alpha Flight hooks:

AF has to fight off American incursions, plus SHIELD/HAMMER, as the 'leaky border' with Canada is used as an excuse to try an unofficial takeover.. all the resources, fear mongering, health and so on.

AF leads a group of 'non-aligned' heroes, like Winter Guard and Big Hero Six, to offset the effects of all those American and Chinese heroes who always cross borders with impunity.

AF is the last line of defense against something like LLan, and no one knows it. They have to fight the battles as usual but also fighting the other front, alone

.......

[Flightpath07]

Alpha Flight hooks:

AF has to fight off American incursions, plus SHIELD/HAMMER, as the 'leaky border' with Canada is used as an excuse to try an unofficial takeover.. all the resources, fear mongering, health and so on.

AF leads a group of 'non-aligned' heroes, like Winter Guard and Big Hero Six, to offset the effects of all those American and Chinese heroes who always cross borders with impunity.

AF is the last line of defense against something like LLan, and no one knows it. They have to fight the battles as usual but also fighting the other front, alone

.......

I think they should be more like the Defenders were. Facing foes nobody else did, saving the world but unbeknownst (what a GREAT word that is) to other citizens, and financed solely by one very rich member. Remember when Walt had all that money, once upon a time. Well, how come he does not sell some crazy invention or theory or something, make a bajillion dollars, and finance the new Flight team himself with no government interference. If the govt has a problem they need Flight to handle, then they can call Walt up and ASK for his help. That would be my idea for the team. That, and I agree with Byrne, they should be apart more than they are together. Maybe find a way to bring Shroud to Canada, he and Arachne can marry, then you can show their married life together, in the same way we used to see Mac and Heather. Also, team needs somebody like Puck, somebody with a lot of heart and pluck but basically no powers to speak of.

[maniac mike]

I think a good time for AF to come back would be the fallout of "Dark Reign", especially once America and the rest of the world find out the government sponsored Avengers where nothing more than a bunch of psychopathic villains (Norman included). I wouldn't mind seeing AF coming here to America to defend it or anywhere else either.

As for returning AF back to the original team, they could have Mac, Heather, Michael, Eugene, Edmond and Zuzha in cyro and they learn that Weapon Omega still has their essence inside of him and so the remaining AF with Wolverine in tow track him down. At least they could make it a limited series to 'fix" what has been done to AF!

[-o<

[Flightpath07]

"I think a good time for AF to come back would be the fallout of "Dark Reign"

Unfortunately, for this to be true, a creative team would already have gotten an accepted bid for a new series by Marvel, and would be heavily in pre-production mode right now.

I still say the easiest way to begin to fix things, is have the doubles be the ones who died, and have AF return from space. That way, you do not have to explain, yet again, how AF returned from the dead.

[Adam]

Alpha Flight hooks:

AF has to fight off American incursions, plus SHIELD/HAMMER, as the 'leaky border' with Canada is used as an excuse to try an unofficial takeover.. all the resources, fear mongering, health and so on.

AF leads a group of 'non-aligned' heroes, like Winter Guard and Big Hero Six, to offset the effects of all those American and Chinese heroes who always cross borders with impunity.

AF is the last line of defense against something like LLan, and no one knows it. They have to fight the battles as usual but also fighting the other front, alone

.......

I wish Omega Flight spent more time building on the border aspect, as it was much talked about in the lead up to the book. Perhaps if it wasn't so damn decompressed more could have been fit into those few issues.

...

I've always through one of the hooks of Alpha was the conflict between science and magic.

You've got a team of scientists like Walt and Mac with magic-based characters like Shaman and Snowbird. Walt, for all his science, ends up with a power routed in the magical realm. Shaman, despite being a mystic, is a clinical doctor. I really think there's somewhere they could go with that angle.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I can't let that assertion go unchallenged.

Volume 2 had a de-aged Mac, a Heather and Puck who constantly got mind-wiped, a guy who should have serious problems going to the bathroom (Radius), a former villain who got cancer (Sunfire), and two other youngsters (Flex and Murmur) who were entrusted to defend Canada against unconventional threats. How can anyone say this was done for the Alpha Flight fans?

Volume 3 made Walter look like he didn't know what he was doing. Walter...University professor, former pro footballer. Strong, smart Walter.
Whole new crew; originals sent to outer space.

Omega Flight. Talisman, butt of U.S. Agents insults. Mailman Mike (the guy who alledgedly killed Alpha Flight), wearing the "Guardian" uniform.
Sasquatch, getting the crap kicked out of him after a new team was being assembled by Agent Brown.

How were any of these things done---honestly---for "the fans"?

[cmdrkoenig67]

Mr Brevoort seems to think so.

Dana

[mreeez]

Yeah, I'm gonna call shenanigans on Tom also.

Oeming came up with a different hook for Omega Flight but TPTB at Marvel cut it off without giving it a chance.

And let's not forget Tom's blog rant on Flight fans where he said the way to get an ongoing Flight book was to make sure Omega Flight sold well. It did and nothing happened and now he's saying no one has a good idea for the book.

There seems to be a little bit of revisionist history here going on at Marvel.

[Flightpath07]

There seems to be a little bit of revisionist history here going on at Marvel.

Let's take the gloves off, and call it what it is. Lies. Lies, pure and simple. Every word out of their mouths have been lies. They don't like us. They don't want us, or our Alpha Flight. And they lie to us constantly.

Marvel cannot be trusted.

And THAT is what we should be telling Disney; the truth.