marrina question

[Flightpath07]

I'll say it again, if you're not happy with how Marvel is treating AF, stop buying any Marvel books. Vote with your wallet.

Outside of Avengers Intiative, I do not purchase any Marvel titles anymore.

Has it worked yet? Do they care yet? Have they noticed I am gone, and tearfully pleaded for me to come back? Are they going bankrupt, and do they realize that the only way to save their business is to bring back the original Alpha Flight?

Yeah, didn't think so either.

[Mokole]

I have not bought any Marvel comics outside of Omega Flight in a lot of years.

[Speedy92286]

I've stopped buying comics all together. Now I just download the ones that interest me. Honestly, comics have been going downhill for such a long time and I don't feel like wasting 3 or 4 dollars to possibly entertain myself for like ten minutes. Rather spend the money on a good novel that will last me at least a few days.

Nova and Guardians of the Galaxy are pretty good, and probably the only series I would pick up.

[Legerd]

I'll say it again, if you're not happy with how Marvel is treating AF, stop buying any Marvel books. Vote with your wallet.

Outside of Avengers Intiative, I do not purchase any Marvel titles anymore.

Has it worked yet? Do they care yet? Have they noticed I am gone, and tearfully pleaded for me to come back? Are they going bankrupt, and do they realize that the only way to save their business is to bring back the original Alpha Flight?

Yeah, didn't think so either.

I mean stop buying any Marvel books. As long as you are giving them money they'll just keep doing what their doing. An individual boycott will mean nothing, but a group will get their notice, especially if everyone talks about it.
You can keep being the weak link if you like, but don't complain if Marvel continues to crap on AF as you're helping them to do it.

[Flightpath07]

I'll say it again, if you're not happy with how Marvel is treating AF, stop buying any Marvel books. Vote with your wallet.

Outside of Avengers Intiative, I do not purchase any Marvel titles anymore.

Has it worked yet? Do they care yet? Have they noticed I am gone, and tearfully pleaded for me to come back? Are they going bankrupt, and do they realize that the only way to save their business is to bring back the original Alpha Flight?

Yeah, didn't think so either.

I mean stop buying any Marvel books. As long as you are giving them money they'll just keep doing what their doing. An individual boycott will mean nothing, but a group will get their notice, especially if everyone talks about it.
You can keep being the weak link if you like, but don't complain if Marvel continues to crap on AF as you're helping them to do it.

If my one Marvel comic purchased every month means the difference between AF coming back or not, I'd be most surprised...

Not sure what one has to do with the other. Despite hating what they have done to AF over the last twenty years or so, I tend to enjoy the stories and characters in Avengers Initiative. The two have nothing to do with each other.

Reality says, that if Marvel says we should speak with our wallets and that because not enough people will financially support an AF series they will not make one, then it stands to reason that even if everybody who wants a good AF comic stops buying any Marvel product it won't be enough to make any sort of difference.

There aren't enough of us to make a noticeable difference in their bottom line figures.

The reason we believe that a well-written (and drawn) Flight book with a good premse behind it and solid characters that are uniquely Canadian and well-liked, the reason we beleive that such a book would do well, is based on "build it and they will come." A good book, generally speaking, attracts readers. But, right now, there are not enough of us AFers to make a difference, there will only be enough when we get a good Flight title and other people discover how good it is and buy it too.

Until then, "voting with my wallet" means squat. Unfortunately.

Oh, and if a bunch of people complain to Marevl, and these people are NOT consumers of Marvel products, then why would Marvel waste their time listening to complaints from people who do not support them financially? Seems like flawed logic, really...at least, i am sure that it does to THEM...

[cmdrkoenig67]

People "voted with their wallets" on Omega Flight and it was "elected to run a second term", funny thing though...It's not around, is it?

Maybe Alpha Flight as an Avengers-like team (with Beta Ray bill and other not necessarilly Totally Canadian characters) will work best (and sell better) in the long run? Throw in some characters that have other fan-bases (like Bill), that may fit into Alpha's line-up better than U.S.Agent?

Like WW II character Jack Frost (who is in the Canadian north, trapped in ice)...Maybe Deadpool (I guess he's Canadian, but he would totally steal the book, though) or Maverick?

Throw in the rest...

Aurora (with Northstar, if the writer can use him or by herself?)
Beta Ray Bill
Guardian (NOT Pointer, please!)
Sasquatch
Snowbird
Talisman

I dunno...

Dana

[Legerd]

If my one Marvel comic purchased every month means the difference between AF coming back or not, I'd be most surprised...

Not sure what one has to do with the other. Despite hating what they have done to AF over the last twenty years or so, I tend to enjoy the stories and characters in Avengers Initiative. The two have nothing to do with each other.

It's simple, if enough fans band together to boycott Marvel products, the sooner they will start to look around for something that readers want. Remember, they have shareholders who will put pressure on Joe Q if things are looking bad. It takes time for such a method to work, which I know is difficult for folks who expect instant gratification, but it does work if the pressure is maintained. And yes, every bit counts.

Reality says, that if Marvel says we should speak with our wallets and that because not enough people will financially support an AF series they will not make one, then it stands to reason that even if everybody who wants a good AF comic stops buying any Marvel product it won't be enough to make any sort of difference.

There aren't enough of us to make a noticeable difference in their bottom line figures.

You forget that there are other people already boycotting Marvel products for other reasons (OMD/BND, the price hike) plus many readers buy multiple titles as well as other products (busts, DVD's, etc.). If they stopped buying all of that there would be a cumulative effect that would make a noticeable difference, but again it takes time and effort.

The reason we believe that a well-written (and drawn) Flight book with a good premse behind it and solid characters that are uniquely Canadian and well-liked, the reason we beleive that such a book would do well, is based on "build it and they will come." A good book, generally speaking, attracts readers. But, right now, there are not enough of us AFers to make a difference, there will only be enough when we get a good Flight title and other people discover how good it is and buy it too.

Until then, "voting with my wallet" means squat. Unfortunately.

No, I wish it were that simple. Because AF has been so badly written over the past two decades, Marvel needs to fix what doesn't work, while maintaining what the core audience wants and lastly adding fresh ideas that will bring in new readers. All past attempts to restart AF failed to fix past mistakes, alienated long time fans while bringing in few new ones, with OF being the exception.
Sadly, it's up to Marvel to make the effort to put out a book we will like while putting something into it that will attract new fans, something they haven't tried yet. But that is their job, as is advertising it, although we can do our part with word of mouth.
Voting with our wallets is the stick by which we make Marvel pay attention to what we're saying. Promising to return to buying Marvel books is the carrot we dangle in front of them.

Oh, and if a bunch of people complain to Marevl, and these people are NOT consumers of Marvel products, then why would Marvel waste their time listening to complaints from people who do not support them financially? Seems like flawed logic, really...at least, i am sure that it does to THEM...

Since we ARE consumers of Marvel products under normal circumstances, it has an effect when we STOP being consumers of Marvel products. That's how boycotts work.
If the people who normally buy Marvel books stop then it means Marvel starts losing money, which is what they are all about. Obviously not everyone is going to suddenly stop buying, but if enough people do for long enough, then the shareholders in the company start asking why the company is losing money and Joe Q has to do something or he loses his job. You add to this by telling everyone on all the forums you belong to that that's what you're doing. Put the idea in their heads and they might do the same thing about whatever is bothering them. I've posted at Newsarama, the Marvel boards, CBR and here that I haven't bought anything Marvel since 2007.
Like I said it takes time and (concerted) effort for this approach to work. Nothing will change as long as you support Marvel. Only by doing something can you bring about change.
Of course if you don't want to take part that's your call.

[Flightpath07]

A rational explanation of your thoughts and methods, Legerd. Thanks.

I hear what you are saying. I see what you are attempting. I understand why. I agree with some of what you say, and appreciate your efforts to try to bring about something good for Flight.

I still think that, no matter what the method is or how the effort is exerted, it is still doomed to fail - the effort, that is.

IMHO, the only way to get a new Flight book, is for a talented creative team to come up with something so great, and that they beleive in so strongly, that they refuse to give up in their demands that Marvel allow them to give it a go.

And the likelihood of that happening any time soon, given the P.T.B. at Marvel and how most of them feel about Flight, is somewhere between Zero and Nil. Until a change in power happens, or a change in thinking, it is status quo.

In the meantime, I will enjoy my one Marvel comic per month. And a couple from DC and Image that I read as well, as well as an occasional independant company. And, I will remain thankful for the X comics. Even though I do not read them and do not like them, I am thankful that Northstar, Aurora, and Jeffries have been kept alive and in some use, as that will make it easier (depending what they do with the characters in the meantime) to possibly put them in a Flight book later. Also, although I hate Pointer with a passion, keeping him in play means Alpha Flight will hazve a great villain to lock horns with in the future.

So, kudos to those at Marvel who DO care about some of the AF characters; you are few and far between, and I salute you.

May we get what we want, and may it be better than we could hope for.

[Ahab]

I didn't see it in the scanned images, but does Northstar or Jeffries show up in the story at all? Do they even comment on the revelation that Marrina is still alive? If not, it's a shame that Fraction missed the opportunity. I know there is only so much space in a comic, but little nuances like this are what fans appreciate. And I thought he might be an Alpha fan. But maybe not to the extent that Van Lente is...

[rplass]

No, neither Northstar nor Jeffries are in this issue. I wouldn't comment on Fraction's fandom based on the fact that two former teammates, who were barely teammates at all (Marrina quit AF way before Jeffries joined and Northstar's membership barely overlapped Marrina's as well), didn't comment on someone's death who everyone thought had been dead for so long anyway. It's like when you hear some old famous guy has died and you're all, "that guy was still alive?", you don't really mourn someone who you already think is dead.

What really bothered me about the issue, besides for the fact that Marrina got killed of course, was when Namor sees Marrina coming toward Utopia and says, "Ex-wives, what can you do?". Terrible, and completely inappropriate. You don't make a flippant joke like that when you find out someone you loved once, who you had to kill once before in a moment of wrenching agony and for who you built an undersea tomb is still alive. You say something more like, "Imperious Rex! My Marrina lives! Her bier has been violated! I, the Avenging Son, King of Atlantis and mighty husband to Queen Marrina shall rescue my beloved from her monstrous state!" Well, that's a bit over the top but you get the point. Fraction sort of makes up for it later by a more appropriate and touching conclusion, when Namor remembers fonder times and seems more in character.

Love,
rplass

[Legerd]

A rational explanation of your thoughts and methods, Legerd. Thanks.

I hear what you are saying. I see what you are attempting. I understand why. I agree with some of what you say, and appreciate your efforts to try to bring about something good for Flight.

I still think that, no matter what the method is or how the effort is exerted, it is still doomed to fail - the effort, that is.

Fair enough.

IMHO, the only way to get a new Flight book, is for a talented creative team to come up with something so great, and that they beleive in so strongly, that they refuse to give up in their demands that Marvel allow them to give it a go.

And the likelihood of that happening any time soon, given the P.T.B. at Marvel and how most of them feel about Flight, is somewhere between Zero and Nil. Until a change in power happens, or a change in thinking, it is status quo.

Here we agree. Until something changes there will be no new AF projects, period. I'm just tired of waiting and want to force the issue.

[Le Messor]

The other problem, that you brought up, Legerd, with your 'post to the boards' and 'people are boycotting for other reasons' mentions is that, if we boycott for a new Alpha Flight, and they boycott for Cloak & Dagger, and the third guy on the left boycotts for Power Pack and that red-shirted ensign boycotts because he's just been vapourised by the first alien entity to show how serious this episode is...

You get the picture. What does Marvel bring back that'll bring back all the money it's been losing? Good stories? Too subjective. Too tricky. Characterisation? Let's hope!

Oh, and rplass, it may have been over the top, but Namor's over the top. It read like perfect Namor dialogue to me.

- Le Messor
"We can never see ourselves as others see us; even the mirror shows us in reverse."
- P.K. Shaw

[Legerd]

The other problem, that you brought up, Legerd, with your 'post to the boards' and 'people are boycotting for other reasons' mentions is that, if we boycott for a new Alpha Flight, and they boycott for Cloak & Dagger, and the third guy on the left boycotts for Power Pack and that red-shirted ensign boycotts because he's just been vapourised by the first alien entity to show how serious this episode is...

You get the picture. What does Marvel bring back that'll bring back all the money it's been losing? Good stories? Too subjective. Too tricky. Characterisation? Let's hope!

As I said, the boycott is to get Marvel's attention, beyond that it's a matter of us repeatedly telling them what we want until we get it. Marvel needs readers more than readers need Marvel at this point, so when they're ready to listen we have to already be telling them what the demand is. That is the reason I always try to mention FVL as the new AF writer, as well as what will make for a successful series, it's to put the bug in everyone's ear.
And it works, after all this article came about because of my question to Tom Brevoort. It didn't get us a book obviously, but it did get everyone talking (on multiple websites) about a new AF book, who they'd like as the creative team on it and who/what they would like to see in it.
To sum it up, it's as much about us doing our part to bring about a new AF book, as it is Marvel doing its part.

[Le Messor]

That does make a certain amount of sense.
Let's hope the next article is less dismissive, though.

- Le Messor
"Fortune is like the market, where many times, if you can stay a little, the price will fall."
- Francis Bacon

[Flightpath07]

On the Marina question, I would like to clear up two possible misconceptions that folks may have after hearing about her death at the hands of Namor.

After having, finally, read "X-Men; Dark Reign - The List" (phew! they have to get some shorter titles, this is ridiculous! lol), here are two things I wish to point out.

One, folks who have not read this issue, may get the impression that Namor defeated and killed Marina. This is not necessarily really correct. Namor had the help of the X-Men in defeating her (and really, of the entire mutant species); indeed, when she slumped out of the water and onto the new mutant island habitat, she was for all intents and purposes already defeated, yet Namor had not even laid a hand on her yet. All the fighting was done by others.

Namor then uses his tremendous strength to (barely) lift her over his head, saying that he just needed the X-Men's help to get her out of the water for him. At this point, he flies off carrying her huge monstrous form. From here, it gets more and more confusing. He states that he needed her out of the water...then he flies off with her, but then he plunges back into the ocean with her and, communicating mentally or emotionally with her to try to keep her clam, plunges into the depths of the Mariana Trench. This is the last we see of them. The assumption, I suppose, is that he takes her to depths she cannot survive at? Unfortunately, we are never told.

Two, that it is just Marina's head that Namor launches through the window of Norman's office. Again, this assumption would be wrong. Although the head is all that can be seen, there is absolutely no sign that there has been a severing from the rest of her. The body could be trailing out the window and down the side of the skyscraper; we are never shown this view. The truth is, until proven otherwise, I am assuming that the rest of Marina's body was merely off-panel.

BTW...the fact that Wolverine made no mention of his disgust at having to fight (and be a part of killing) yet another member of Alpha Flight, is quite reprehensible in its exclusion. You would think that with Marina being sent by Osborne, and with Weapon Omega being employed by Osborne...can there be any doubt that in a fit of rage Wolverine should be the one to severe Norman's head from his body?