joe fridays week 6

[Mokole]

Has anyone been reading the stuff on Weapon Omega in whatever its called? Hows that been?

It's alright, it's basically a Guardian/USAgent story and everyone else is a supporting character

Hasn't #8 come out? I thought it was this week. Supposed to be USAgent finding out how bad things are for Weapon Omega or Weapon Omega becoming the villain he is. Or something.

Thanks, King, there I go.

[-K-M-]

It came out last week, I posted a brief summary of the story in the Marvel Comics Presents thread

Walter makes a one panel cameo

[Powersurge]

Uh...Your post makes me say...WTF?! John Byrne created AF, not Claremont, John Byrne was the Canadian of the two and he created a couple of the characters before he even started drawing X-Men. How can you even think that Claremont handled them better, when he was co-plotting with Byrne?

Dana

Yeah, I know who created Alpha Flight and where he was born. Thanks though. And I can say that Claremont did a better job, or at least his input made the difference, via... ummm, I dunno, comparison maybe?

Abetter question might be how you can argue the fact. We've seen Byrne's stand alone. It was weak, and only seems strong in contrast to all of the crap that followed. It doesn't measure up to AF as presented in UXM... where it had Calremont on its side.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Uh...Your post makes me say...WTF?! John Byrne created AF, not Claremont, John Byrne was the Canadian of the two and he created a couple of the characters before he even started drawing X-Men. How can you even think that Claremont handled them better, when he was co-plotting with Byrne?

Dana

Yeah, I know who created Alpha Flight and where he was born.

England. He moved to Canada as a kid with his parents. :P

Thanks though. And I can say that Claremont did a better job, or at least his input made the difference, via... ummm, I dunno, comparison maybe?

Roll your eyes all you want, but Byrne's Alpha Flight sold almost as well as the X-Men at the time. It was a very successful run, despite how you feel about it or Guardian's death. He killed Guardian, because Mac was the least interesting and least developed (contrary to how you feel also) of the team. His Death had the most impact for the team, though.

Abetter question might be how you can argue the fact. We've seen Byrne's stand alone. It was weak, and only seems strong in contrast to all of the crap that followed. It doesn't measure up to AF as presented in UXM... where it had Calremont on its side.

How was it weak, when it sold in the hundred thousands and sold almost as well as the X-Men and Byrne's run on Fantastic Four, at the time? Pay a little more attention, before you claim such absolutes about Byrne's failure with Alpha Flight.

Dana

[Powersurge]

Thanks for giving me permission to roll my eyes all I want there pal. You feel free to be an @$$hole all you want when someone states their opinion. That way people will know how to take your opinion.

As for Macs death... we all know where the comic went after that, and the enumber of times they tried to resurrect the character. And anything can sell well for the first few issues.... especially if you put the right name on it. Generally I don't consider dollars, or a name, to equate directly to good story telling. I Expect good story telling to equate to good story telling. And Byrne's run SUCKED... it just sucked LESS than everything that followed.

If you don't like my opinion, thats fine. If you feel the need to disagree with it, that too is okay. You have my permission. You might care to exercise a little more diplomacy though in its expression. Then again, you might not.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Thanks for giving me permission to roll my eyes all I want there pal. You feel free to be an @$$hole all you want when someone states their opinion. That way people will know how to take your opinion.

How am I being an @$$hole? I didn't call you names or insult you (unlike you)...You stated your opinion/feelings and that's fine, but you are in error about any such failure on Byrne's behalf with Alpha Flight.

As for Macs death... we all know where the comic went after that, and the enumber of times they tried to resurrect the character. And anything can sell well for the first few issues.... especially if you put the right name on it. Generally I don't consider dollars, or a name, to equate directly to good story telling. I Expect good story telling to equate to good story telling. And Byrne's run SUCKED... it just sucked LESS than everything that followed.

It's still your opinion, you are in the minority, however. How exactly did it suck? Just because you don't like them?

If you don't like my opinion, thats fine. If you feel the need to disagree with it, that too is okay. You have my permission. You might care to exercise a little more diplomacy though in its expression. Then again, you might not.

Opinion is one thing, but you claim Byrne got the team wrong and that it was only good in comparison to what came after...And you back your opinion up with feelings and nothing more substantial. Please try being a bit more civil, if you decide to answer.

Dana

[Powersurge]

Your opening comment in your first response, "Uh...your post makes me say WTF???" set what seemed to me to be a condescending tone.

If I misinterpretted it, I apologize.

Naturally, our opinion of art is going to be based on subjective criteria.

Can Byrne write? Yes. Can he tell a good story? Definitely. Did he do so with his run on series 1. IMO, no he didn't. I was not at all impressed with his decision to open the series by micromanaging the team and focusing on only one or two members for every issue or two, and of those stories the only one I liked was his handling of Sasq.

And no sooner does he get the team together, then he kills off it's best known member and most iconic hero. IMO, Mac is Alpha Flight. When he first appeared and battle the X-Men solo, people were like WOW when they reads it. Its classic. And when he mentioned AF at the end he excited curiousty of the team. And then when the team itself appeared in thepages of UXM, people were like WOW, AF are contenders.

Those issues laid the foundation for the series. They created a demand for Alpha Flight... because they were strong stories.

Byrne's stand alone just doesn't come close. And really, I do beleive the guy was actaully quoted awhile back as saying he never really liked AF himself anyway, so maybe its not at all surprising that he took the team in the direction he did when left to his own devices.

Not that the Omega Flight arc wasn't pretty damn good, or that it's promises didn't leave me thinking, "yeah, at last I'm going to get what I want... the team... in a fight vs. credible villains!!!" But they killed Mac dude... the guy who singlehandedly held his own against the UXM and knocked Wolvie COLD!!! But who expressed a degree of doubt and reluctance that gave him real humanity.

People can disagree and praise characters like Puck for instance, but IMO those characters have nothing on Mac, and border on absurd. And the only character that ever even came close was Sasquatch.

Anyway, sorry if I misinterpretted you there once again.

[varo]

hate to jump in the middle of you guys battling it out, but i know there are two sides, both pretty passionate about it, when it comes to the face of alpha flight, and i agree with powersurge, FOR ME the face of alpha flight has always been mac. it was mac in uncanny, and it was mac in issue 1. i always felt that byrne was going for a repeat of the"death of phoenix" shock that made his run on uncanny so memorable.

again, its my opinion, i respect any other.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Your opening comment in your first response, "Uh...your post makes me say WTF???" set what seemed to me to be a condescending tone.

I was responding to your "WTF" about Byrne's run with my own...Simple as that. Your insisting that Byrne's run on the book sucks is a bit insulting to the rest of us who enjoyed it.

If I misinterpretted it, I apologize.

Naturally, our opinion of art is going to be based on subjective criteria.

Can Byrne write? Yes. Can he tell a good story? Definitely. Did he do so with his run on series 1. IMO, no he didn't. I was not at all impressed with his decision to open the series by micromanaging the team and focusing on only one or two members for every issue or two, and of those stories the only one I liked was his handling of Sasq.

I believe Byrne was attempting to show how big Canada was (by the separation of the team). Members of the team were of course, from all over Canada (Walt from B.C., the Twins from Montreal, Mac and Heather from Ontario, Michael from Alberta, etc...). When Dept H closed down, they returned to their homes.

And no sooner does he get the team together, then he kills off it's best known member and most iconic hero. IMO, Mac is Alpha Flight. When he first appeared and battle the X-Men solo, people were like WOW when they reads it. Its classic. And when he mentioned AF at the end he excited curiousty of the team. And then when the team itself appeared in thepages of UXM, people were like WOW, AF are contenders.

Those issues laid the foundation for the series. They created a demand for Alpha Flight... because they were strong stories.

Byrne's stand alone just doesn't come close. And really, I do beleive the guy was actaully quoted awhile back as saying he never really liked AF himself anyway, so maybe its not at all surprising that he took the team in the direction he did when left to his own devices.

It's true that Byrne didn't think AF anymore than a team created to go toe-to-toe with the X-Men, he didn't feel they deserved their own book...Nor was he keen on the idea of being coerced to do the book. He doesn't to this day, believe that Alpha Flight is anywhere near as good as the heroes created by Lee, Kirby, Ditko, etc...I think he just devalues his own work and creations to an extent.

Not that the Omega Flight arc wasn't pretty damn good, or that it's promises didn't leave me thinking, "yeah, at last I'm going to get what I want... the team... in a fight vs. credible villains!!!"

I thought you felt "Byrne's run SUCKED"? How can one story arc be "pretty damn good", if the work he did on the book sucked? Which is it?..Seriously, this is not an attack...I'm just wondering why you're waffling now?

But they killed Mac dude... the guy who singlehandedly held his own against the UXM and knocked Wolvie COLD!!! But who expressed a degree of doubt and reluctance that gave him real humanity.

People can disagree and praise characters like Puck for instance, but IMO those characters have nothing on Mac, and border on absurd. And the only character that ever even came close was Sasquatch.

Anyway, sorry if I misinterpretted you there once again.

[cmdrkoenig67]

hate to jump in the middle of you guys battling it out, but i know there are two sides, both pretty passionate about it, when it comes to the face of alpha flight, and i agree with powersurge, FOR ME the face of alpha flight has always been mac. it was mac in uncanny, and it was mac in issue 1. i always felt that byrne was going for a repeat of the"death of phoenix" shock that made his run on uncanny so memorable.

again, its my opinion, i respect any other.

Well...It was definitely a shock...And IMHO, a very memorable and powerful story.

Dana

[Powersurge]

I thought ONE story arc was really good... 'cept that it ended in Macs death. Well, actually, like I said, I liked the Sasq. "spotlight" as well. But once again, overall, I felt that the opening volley was boring and uninspirational... taken as a WHOLE.

So, its both.

[varo]

yeah, but don't forget, byrne followed up the mac death with walters.



ugghhhh....

[Mokole]

I don't think we need to argue who was the 'best' or worst, we all have different views on what we like. Me, I liked a lot of what Byrne introduced for the team but later writers made them a team, made Box worthwhile, didn't overuse the Guardian suit, had a team sense of heroism. I always liked Furman and would've liked to see him do his best with:
Guardian
Puck
Sasquatch
Nemesis
Aurora
Northstar
Box
Diamond Lil

Plus the Beta's with Windshear truly the leader (and not tagging along with AF), and Feedback part of Beta.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I thought ONE story arc was really good... 'cept that it ended in Macs death. Well, actually, like I said, I liked the Sasq. "spotlight" as well. But once again, overall, I felt that the opening volley was boring and uninspirational... taken as a WHOLE.

So, its both.

Uh...Yeah.

[Powersurge]

yeah, but don't forget, byrne followed up the mac death with walters.



ugghhhh....

Was it Byrne who did that? Sheesh! Yet another character, with impressive history, that he killed off that other writers have been trying to bring back ever since... and in just as many convoluted ways as Mac!

Obviously there hasn't been a constant push to get these two back because everyone thought they were second rate. Or so it seems ot me.