SHRA : Good or Bad ? (Omega Flight #2 Spoilers)

[Transmetropolitan]

As for Cage and the SRA; why was it just him? Why not every hero they had a tag on?

Perhaps he was a potential figurehead- but he's also a potential martyr, since his identity was hardly secret. He was probably just really easy to find.

[cmdrkoenig67]

And the fact is that existing laws were drafted with a nonsuperpowered population in mind. Moreover, most of the anti-regs were people that wanted to go on fighting crime. They just wanted to do it however they saw fit with no strings attached and with complete anonymity.

If you can't see how a large group of incredibly and unnaturally powerful people, operating however they see fit and existing entirely outside for the loop of accountability is a dangerous thing, than perhaps it is you who simply can't see.

Oh for cripes' sake, Pow...Remember, we're talking about comics here.

Dana

[Powersurge]

Oh for cripes' sake, Pow...Remember, we're talking about comics here.

Dana

I tend to agree, but as the saying goes, "whats good for the goose is good for the gander". Discounting the possiblity of a double standard, I'd presume you didn't read the post I was responding too?

[Powersurge]

As for Cage and the SRA; why was it just him? Why not every hero they had a tag on?

Perhaps he was a potential figurehead- but he's also a potential martyr, since his identity was hardly secret. He was probably just really easy to find.

No doubt. He was also directly named by Cap in his conversation with Hill as one of those most likely to resist the law. He is likely the most powerful and high profile of the general group identified by Cap as well, ie. lonewolves and those that work close to the street.

[DelBubs]

As for Cage and the SRA; why was it just him? Why not every hero they had a tag on?

Perhaps he was a potential figurehead- but he's also a potential martyr, since his identity was hardly secret. He was probably just really easy to find.

No doubt. He was also directly named by Cap in his conversation with Hill as one of those most likely to resist the law. He is likely the most powerful and high profile of the general group identified by Cap as well, ie. lonewolves and those that work close to the street.

So cutting through all the jargon, he was targetted for what he had the potential to become and for what he might do ? Working to that standard shouldn't every one with a gun and every mother with a kitchen knife be locked away?

[cmdrkoenig67]

Oh for cripes' sake, Pow...Remember, we're talking about comics here.

Dana

I tend to agree, but as the saying goes, "whats good for the goose is good for the gander". Discounting the possiblity of a double standard, I'd presume you didn't read the post I was responding too?

Well....Your post immediately follows mine with no quote, so I thought you were responding to my post. Who were you responding to, if not me?

Dana

[Powersurge]

So cutting through all the jargon, he was targetted for what he had the potential to become and for what he might do ? Working to that standard shouldn't every one with a gun and every mother with a kitchen knife be locked away?

You mistake me. I'm not saying that it was right. What I'm saying is that what happend to Luke Cage was specific to him, and that the pro-reg forces didn't boot in the door of every potential anti-reg'er as soon as the law came into effect.

[Powersurge]

Well....Your post immediately follows mine with no quote, so I thought you were responding to my post. Who were you responding to, if not me?

Dana

As far as the jibe went, I was responding to Dfense75.

[Dfense75]

So you saying its ok for someone to be arrested and fired upon because they might, maybe, possibly do something? Hurm...

[Le Messor]

When I read the thread title, I didn't realise this had #2 spoilers, which I've been avoiding.

My bad Mik, I should have picked up on that and put a warning in the title. God I feel bad now

No big. They weren't huge spoilers. Can the admins change the title?

Verity: Now I've got to get him to the fish tank and sing.
Husband: Oh.
Verity: (sings) And did those feet, in ancient time...

Now do Bohemian Rhapsody!

Well, like I said, if the government and the system it represents is so flawed and corrupt, then heroes should be bent on overthrowing it

That's a bit extreme, isn't it?

Not every hero on the pro-reg side wholeheartedly embraced the SRA. She-Hulk comes immediately to mind.

Don't know about her, but it really bothered me how divided everybody became and how quickly. I would imagine a few people saying 'I support reg, but I won't hunt down my friends and I certainly won't betray them'. Instead, I saw a bunch of 'they're anti-reg, I'm pro reg, I'll treat them like villains.'
(You say pretty much the same thing in a later post. Yay, we agree!)

As for comparing the pro-reg heroes to an army. Fine. But these are not soldiers that have had obedience to authority drilled into them as a teenager or young adult.

I take it you haven't been reading The Initiative?

Holding a person in bondage is, to my thinking, probably the worst thing you could do to a person.

Depends on the type of club you hang around in...

In the end, we could argue this till the cows come home.

Better yet, I'll argue with the cows, and you go home. (Sorry, bit of Marxist humour there.)

The mark of a true hero would be to fall in line and take the proper routes to fight this thing instead of creating an underground and escalating the situation.

What do you think of Robin Hood? Rosa Parks? Oscar Schindler? Jesus Christ?

Some would say the mark of a true hero is to stand up for what's right, regardless of the wrong around him / her.

It gives them the choice to either stop using their powers to 'fight crime' and become members of normal society, or to join Shield and become authorized crime fighters.

Wrong. That's the theoretical application, the version I support. The actual application is: it gives them the choice to either stop using their powers at all or join SHIELD. Regardless of age. (See Cloud 9 or Power Man).

an illegal alien who enters the US;

Who chooses to enter the US. We're talking about people who were born there, who are legit citizens, then suddenly somehow end up with powers. Rarely by their own design.

Ah, Civil War.... when the voices of reason are Wolverine and Ben Grimm, you're in DEEP trouble.

LOL!

The places where you don't wind up dead in a ditch for voicing one's disapproval with the establishment or a particular law.

Tell that to Goliath!
Oh, wait, you can't. He's dead in a ditch for voicing his disapproval with a particular law. In America.

If a Yank doesn't like Bush and his foreign policies, it is a simple matter to vote him and his party out at the next election;

Wow, you really haven't been paying attention, have you?
You really think it's that simple? I'd vote in the next US election if it was! (Difficult, but possible.)
That's why I don't believe in democracy. (Don't believe in: here, it means not 'don't approve of' but 'don't think it exists'.) Once every few years, they parade a couple of losers in front of us, neither of them remotely qualified to lead a boy scout troupe, and tell us to choose which one should run our country. Then they tell us to be really happy we live in a land of free choice.

If you can't see how a large group of incredibly and unnaturally powerful people, operating however they see fit and existing entirely outside for the loop of accountability is a dangerous thing, than perhaps it is you who simply can't see.

Which is exactly why I supported the SHRA--right up until the moment I saw it enacted for the first time. (Luke Cage).


- Le Messor
"Um, Quagmire, shouldn't 'country' have an 'o'?"
- Peter Griffin

[Powersurge]

[quote="Le Messor"]

Well, like I said, if the government and the system it represents is so flawed and corrupt, then heroes should be bent on overthrowing it

That's a bit extreme, isn't it?

Obviously I don't think that it is extreme... if indeed the government and system are so corrupt. But in your opinion what would be more moderate, given that situation?

As for comparing the pro-reg heroes to an army. Fine. But these are not soldiers that have had obedience to authority drilled into them as a teenager or young adult.

I take it you haven't been reading The Initiative?

I've read a couple of issues. But hows about all of the issues of all of the titles that preceded CW; filled to the brim with veteran heroes that are not soldiers that had obedience to authority drilled into them from an early age.

The mark of a true hero would be to fall in line and take the proper routes to fight this thing instead of creating an underground and escalating the situation.

[quote="Le Messor"]What do you think of Robin Hood? Rosa Parks? Oscar Schindler? Jesus Christ?

Some would say the mark of a true hero is to stand up for what's right, regardless of the wrong around him / her.{/quote]

And others would say that the mark of a true hero is SELFLESSNESS and a willingness to sacrifice of one's self, and particularly what one would rather not give up, for the wellbeing of others, and not "me, me, me, me".

The places where you don't wind up dead in a ditch for voicing one's disapproval with the establishment or a particular law.

Tell that to Goliath!
Oh, wait, you can't. He's dead in a ditch for voicing his disapproval with a particular law. In America.

Hehe. Golaith was hardly "voicing his disapproval". He was willling combatant and died in a battle instigated by his leader who initiated said battle with a blatant rejection of IM's attempt at parley.

Of course, we could always tell it to the folk of Stamford. Or any of those who must have been killed or injured, had all of their worldly possessions destroyed in pointless, muscle-flexing hero vs. hero battles that preceded CW. None of them were combatants, willing or otherwise, and all of them represented the very people true heroes are willing to give up their health, their lives, and their very reputations in order to protect.

But no, the system is good enough when it comes to the average citizen or criminal. It's good enough when it comes to mutants. But hey, once it knocks on the door of the poor superheroes, all of them so weak and incapable of defending thesmselves, it becomes evil incarnate. Me, me, me.

Oh, and democracy isn't supposed to be easy. But pray tell, what would be both easier and better?

[Le Messor]

if the government and the system it represents is so flawed and corrupt, then heroes should be bent on overthrowing it... Obviously I don't think that it is extreme... if indeed the government and system are so corrupt. But in your opinion what would be more moderate, given that situation?

Moderate and effective? I don't know. Passive resistance? Signing up for the SHRA, but refusing to enforce it? (Not hunting down your friends, for example.) What Cap did--be forced underground by the law, and fight from down there, with no intention of overthrowing the government?

As for comparing the pro-reg heroes to an army. Fine. But these are not soldiers that have had obedience to authority drilled into them as a teenager or young adult.

I take it you haven't been reading The Initiative?

I've read a couple of issues. But hows about all of the issues of all of the titles that preceded CW; filled to the brim with veteran heroes that are not soldiers that had obedience to authority drilled into them from an early age.

I misread your original intent. You're basic'ly saying the pro-regs haven't been brainwashed, not that they aren't now soldiers.

The mark of a true hero would be to fall in line and take the proper routes to fight this thing instead of creating an underground and escalating the situation.

What do you think of Robin Hood? Rosa Parks? Oscar Schindler? Jesus Christ?
Some would say the mark of a true hero is to stand up for what's right, regardless of the wrong around him / her.

And others would say that the mark of a true hero is SELFLESSNESS and a willingness to sacrifice of one's self, and particularly what one would rather not give up, for the wellbeing of others, and not "me, me, me, me".

And I would be one of those 'others'. (Which is part of why I hated v2 so much.) I think all the examples above are people who gave up what they wanted for others (maybe not Rosa?)--but they did it by disobeying the law, not by sheeping into it. Which is my point:
'Hero' does not mean 'person who obeys the law'.
And "The mark of a true hero would be to fall in line and take the proper routes" is just plain wrong.

The places where you don't wind up dead in a ditch for voicing one's disapproval with the establishment or a particular law.

Golaith was hardly "voicing his disapproval". He was willling combatant and died in a battle instigated by his leader who initiated said battle with a blatant rejection of IM's attempt at parley.

Okay, I can agree with your distinction. But the next person who uses the word 'parley' is in for such a fonging!

Of course, we could always tell it to the folk of Stamford. Or any of those who must have been killed or injured, had all of their worldly possessions destroyed in pointless, muscle-flexing hero vs. hero battles that preceded CW.

Good point.

But no, the system is good enough when it comes to the average citizen or criminal. It's good enough when it comes to mutants. But hey, once it knocks on the door of the poor superheroes, all of them so weak and incapable of defending thesmselves, it becomes evil incarnate. Me, me, me.

LOL!
I don't think the system is particularly good...

Oh, and democracy isn't supposed to be easy. But pray tell, what would be both easier and better?

... which doesn't mean I have anything better. Just that this one isn't particularly good.
Oh, and what democracy? I don't see any democracy around here?
The SHRA sure ain't it.

- Le Messor
"Don't LOOK at anything in a physics lab; don't TASTE anything in a chemistry lab; don't SMELL anything in a biology lab; don't TOUCH anything in a medical lab; and, most importantly, don't LISTEN to anything in the Philosophy Department."

[Le Messor]

I've gone away and thought about this. What I came up with:

(I just noticed the spoiler's in the title now! Yay!)

Super Human Registration Act model 1:
"If people want to fight crime, they must be trained and licenced."
Super Human Registration Act model 2:
"We will round up everybody with superpowers to put them in the SHIELD superhuman army."

model 1 is what Stark offered the Marvel Universe.
model 2 is what he gave them.

Pow, I think you and me both agree with and fully support model 1.

Where we differ is model 2. You seem to be saying: 'model 1 is good, therefore the SHRA is good, therefore any variation on it is good. Therefore, model 2 is good. Because that's what we've got, and it's law!' (Speak the last in whispered tones of reverence.)

Which I completely, totally, and in all other ways disagree with.

Further, you seem to be saying 'It's great that Western democracy gives us a system where we're allowed to disagree with a single law, even vocally. If a law isn't good, we can just magically vote it out of existence. Those who disagree with the SHRA must, in all conscience, overthrow the government.'
You keep saying that in democracy it's okay to disagree with one law. But when we answer the question in this thread title--'Is the SHRA good?' with 'no', you seem to think that from there, we MUST rebel against the government.
Which I'd call a contradiction. If democracy works, overthrowing the system for one bad law isn't the answer. Even if, in good conscience, you can't obey that law.

and

'If they supported the system before the SHRA, they're hypocrites for not supporting it now.'
The system changed, not them.
The pre-SHRA system wasn't rounding up groups of people and throwing them in jail / training camps for no reason. (Unless the MU government was doing it to Arabic citizens--in which case, I doubt the superheroes supported that.)

Further:
I've been talking to somebody recently, who's about to become a missionary in Uganda. She plans to provide councilling to kids. Their problem?
They've been stolen (aged 8-12) by a rebel army, forcefully recruited to their cause. The soldiers initiate them by making them witness death--preferably of people close to them. They pass them guns and teach them to be killers / soldiers.

The Initiative #s 1 & 2:
Cloud 9, about 16 (?) is flying. Nothing more. Just flying.
She gets surrounded by soldiers (in battlesuits), taken off to a training facility where she connects with a guy--then sees him get his brains blown out. An issue later, she kills. (She's passed a gun and shoots a plane out of the sky, and gets shocked when she realises the pilot didn't parachute out.)

Do you wonder where the writers got their inspiration?

Is this wonderful democracy you love so much?
Maybe they should rebel. Not because there's one law they don't support, but because the whole damn system is out of line! It's Chinatown, Marge, Chinatown!

- Le Messor
"That's not America! That's not even Mexico!"
- Homer

[Dfense75]

True patriots dont blindly follow their cause or government. True patriots question their authority and the reason for its actions. BTW Powersurge. The citizens of Staford DONT want the heroes in their state or city. Iron Man said we will honor their dead by building a base and an army on the site where their children died. If your reading the Initiative you will see citizens protesting the army, the base, and before he was shot Captain America's incarceration. Little known fact about King George Bush...It is every legal Americans right to protest anything. When ever King George shows up to do a speech or appearence. There are always protestors. At every single one. Wanna know why you dont seem them on TV. Cause he illegaly has them moved a few blocks away or out of camera site so they are never showed on camera. After his first election where he didnt win but won anyway. There is the induction ceremony. Because of the travesty that was commited in the Florida vote his limo was pelted with eggs, trash, and vegetables. But...cause he didnt want that to be seen. He made sure cameras where not televising it. Wanna know what his first act as president was. The rest of the worlds nations where trying to pass an act (forgive me if im spelling it wrong). The Kyoto act. This act was to begin a world wide movement to control polution and resource consumption. Guess who the only world leader was that said no? You asked earlier what I personally do to help things. The answer as much as I can. I drive a hybrid, recycle pretty much anything in my house that can be, Use energy effecient lightbulbs, always vote, actively protest when something in my area happens, and have on thanksgiving and christmas my girlfriend, myself, my best friend and his mother have helped at local soup kitchens. Hope that answers your question. I believe in democaracy with every fiber of my being. The things that are going on in my country are disgusting and dispicible. It saddens me when I think of the road it is going down. I said it before and Ill say it again. Joe Quesada and the writers at Marvel created the Civil War story to show the changes in America and why they are bad. Iron Man is their figure head for oppresion for one reason. Who better to represent coporate America than Tony Stark. Througout its history comics have done what they can in their own way to speak about the state of things in this country. It was HUGE in world war 2, very prevelent in the 1960s, and again currently. The whole point of the strory is that what they are doing is wrong. The SHRA is gonna fail and thats the message. I commend you for defending your point. But you need to know more of the facts about the character and his actions your defending. Because he is quite simply...wrong.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I agree with Dfense and Le Messor. Heroes don't always follow the law and laws aren't always right or just, nor are they always carried out in a fair manner (as was the case throughout CW).

Powersurge, I don't believe that Captain America or any of the other anti-reg heroes were thinking of only themselves in Civil War (in regard to your "me,me,me,me" statement), anymore than the Pro-Reg side was...If anything, both sides seemed to be thinking "Us, us, us, us!"

...And

You mistake me. I'm not saying that it was right. What I'm saying is that what happend to Luke Cage was specific to him, and that the pro-reg forces didn't boot in the door of every potential anti-reg'er as soon as the law came into effect.

No, but as was already stated, S.H.I.E.L.D. forces attacked Captain America BEFORE the law went into effect, when they discovered he would oppose it. Two heroes were attacked...One before the law became the law and one after, for no reason other than hearsay.

And the fact is that existing laws were drafted with a nonsuperpowered population in mind. Moreover, most of the anti-regs were people that wanted to go on fighting crime. They just wanted to do it however they saw fit with no strings attached and with complete anonymity.

If you can't see how a large group of incredibly and unnaturally powerful people, operating however they see fit and existing entirely outside for the loop of accountability is a dangerous thing, than perhaps it is you who simply can't see.

I think most heroes try to be careful about harming innocents and even letting innocents fall into harms way, but they aren't perfect, they never will be perfect...Even with training, somebody is likely to get hurt. A law will not prevent injuries and possible deaths when a villain wants to kill.

As far as heroes wanting to operate free of strings and with complete anonnymity, why shouldn't they?...You do know what a super hero is, right? I mean, as opposed to a super cop, super fireman or a super soldier?

Dana