The registration act is basically the colonization of American Supers into a second class group which is beholden to the whims of the normal class and is without democratic representation.
The registration act is basically the colonization of American Supers into a second class group which is beholden to the whims of the normal class and is without democratic representation.
Well, like I said, if the government and the system it represents is so flawed and corrupt, then heroes should be bent on overthrowing it as opposed to regualrly *forcing* people (other than themselves, of course) to be beholdent to it.
As for an invasion of privacy; if I've said it once I've said it a million times... the right to privacy IS NOT a right to complete anonymity. No one has a right to anonymity.
And the anti-reg heroes chose fighting because that is what they chose, as a reult of believing that they were 100% right and the opposition was 100% wrong, and that the system is, ummm, "inadequette". Not every hero on the pro-reg side wholeheartedly embraced the SRA. She-Hulk comes immediately to mind. And more than a couple of real world folk, who the system was rigged against, worked it any to achieve their end without a hastey resort to violence. Martin Luthor King Jr. springs immedaitely to mind.
As for comparing the pro-reg heroes to an army. Fine. But these are not soldiers that have had obedience to authority drilled into them as a teenager or young adult. As things stand, they're all conscientous individuals, of the rugged variety, who have regularly thought for themselves. Unifying that community doesn't open it to manipulation, it buffers it against it. You don't conquor a people by bringing them into a closer working relationship.
As for the Hulk, well, I really can't believe some of the things I've heard from folks that supported the anti-reg side. Like they can't wait for him to get back to earth, not only to crush the Illuminati, but to teach of the people a lesson as well. Others are sporting sigs saying "Magneto was right".
That would be another reason I'm pro-reg. It's flaws can be sorted out, and the entire act can be overturned. The anti-regs are just anarchists, suspcious of everything and contemputous of the very society they regularly act to uphold.
Finally, as for the moral wrongness of inserting nano'thingies into villains and forcing them to serve; I presume one thinks that depriving a person of their freedom for years on end is moral? Holding a person in bondage is, to my thinking, probably the worst thing you could do to a person. But then, these are heinous villains. What are we supposed to do, send them to club med?
In the end, we could argue this till the cows come home. Both sides have their reasons for taking the side they have. And the reasons of both sides are, IMO, sound. Well, naturally, I think that my reasons are sound. But what I'm saying is that I understand some of the reasons presented by the anti-reg supporters.
I said it before...I'll say it again. I LOVE a good debate. Having 2 or more opposing sides arguing their points in a civil manner can be a beautiful thing. Powersurge you have my respect for sticking to your guns. Like you of course I think I'm right as well lol. But kudos for arguing your point well. You have my respect.
You may say I'm a dreamer...but I'm not the only one.
Venom: I want to bite their heads off and shove my tongue down their neck holes.
Songbird: Why?
Venom: So I can lick out their hearts.
Except that this argument, that the anti-reg heroes chose violence is completely untrue. Remember how Patriot got busted the first time? He was stopping a robbery. Then the first big fight broke out when the anti-reggers tried to help rescue people except that it was a trap. The anti-reggers only attacked when they were trying to rescue their teammates.Originally Posted by Powersurge
I believe that "the system is inadequette" is a bit of a euphemism when the subject is a person being denied the right to a fair trial and then sent to a place that is known to cause severe mental dementia. A more proper turn of phrase would be "the system is a crime against humanity."
All valid points, valid rebuttals, each said with conviction and confidence derived from personal belief. Each one drawn from life experiences, religion, patriotism, and favoritism toward our most loved super heroes. Debating a point like this is similar to the debates for or against abortion, for or against capital punishment, for or against stem cell research; the similarity is that these debates never end. We find ourselves circling the same argument about ethics and personal freedom, the detriment of charismatic leadership or the corruption in the higher echelons of our government.
All this aside we are left to accept the decisions that government makes on our behalf. We cast our vote and trust in the ideal that it makes a difference. If that trust is found to be in vain, one is left with the choice to remain complacent or take action. Go against their government and place themselves at odds with people they may have once called friends or even family. Revolutionaries are often lifted up as heroes in hindsight.
Blah blah blah blah blah.
For this reason I don't want to quote or try to refute what someone else may already have said, considering the minuscule percent that might choose to alter their opinion afterwards. I will just say my piece and hope you enjoy it.
The new Warriors were negligent, criminally negligent. By the letter of the law this is true. Vigilantism is not a valid reason for an aftermath of death, in any situation. It's like the Spiderman going after Juggernaut for no other reason than the fact that he was once 'evil' while he is having a BBQ in the backyard, then blaming the big man for all the damage and explosions that result. I feel that the difference between the New Warriors going after Nitro and Ironman going after him is that Stark would have been prepared. His experience, training, and understanding of his enemy making the difference, regardless of if the whole Nitro thing was planed ahead of time. They new full well that Nitro was in that house, Speedball was even warned prior that this was out of their league. They attacked, they endangered lives, they prompted the ensuing destruction. Doctor Doom, the Sentinels, The Master, and multitudes of others, much more powerful than Nitro, have tried to do more than just blow up a few blocks of suburbia. They were stopped because of experienced and training.
Day of Future Past? Bishop is PRO SHRA, what does that say? I think....
I need to stop typing here as it seems to be dragging on and becoming a bit preachyI just love talking about literature. I'll wrap it up.
The SHRA is a valid proposition. It is beneficial for everyone NOT a super hero. I think problem here is that too many people would like to put themselves in the shoes of the heroes, and 'why not?'. That is why we read comics after all, though placing yourself in the shoes of a normal everyday person in a world that is constantly being threatened could change your views a bit. Well, probably more than a bit, a lot more. How many times since the 1960s have the people of this earth been told that it is all going to end because of some doomsday weapon or a giant man-eating monster? I would want to police anything I could with the help of my government.
Was it executed well? I don't think so. But after the registration act was set in stone what should a hero do? The mark of a true hero would be to fall in line and take the proper routes to fight this thing instead of creating an underground and escalating the situation. There are always other options. Choosing to subvert the law and go against the authority of your country, even if you are fighting for what is right, makes you are criminal, and in this case it makes you a Super Criminal.
I am PRO Registration.
(Average person + Internet Forum + Anonymity = Screaming Douchebag)
"This is why I don't post often, *wink*"
Thank you, Hyperstorm!Except that Nitro was paid and supplied with MGH by Damage Control to blow up Stamford so that Damage Control could rebuild it. He would of blown up Stamford even if the New Warriors weren't there.
Dana
ALPHA FLIGHT IS RESURRECTED, LONG LIVE ALPHA FLIGHT!
Nope...Nitro was hired by Damage Control to blow the heck out of Stamford and he did...Like I said...He would have blown up anyway, POW!So, Dana, you're talking from behind the scenes (what Marvel would have made happen) and Powersurge, you're talking in the scene (what would have happened with those people in that scenario) ?Believe what you will, Pow...The whole thing was set up to happen...It would have happened, regardless...No joke.
- Le Messor
"Don't eat muffins when I'm developing you."
- Evan, Black Books
ALPHA FLIGHT IS RESURRECTED, LONG LIVE ALPHA FLIGHT!
Okay...Now that is Hogwash!
Dana
ALPHA FLIGHT IS RESURRECTED, LONG LIVE ALPHA FLIGHT!
Actually, since law is based largely on precedent and there is a huge body of vigilante-superhero precedent in the United States... At the time of action the New Warriors were most likely covered by law, something that would have been demonstrated if they had succeeded. And was demonstrated by the governments unwillingness to give him a fair trial.
Except that Iron Man wasn't going after them, like now, he was too entangled in government stuff. If not for Speedball Nitro could have positioned himself strategically to do even more damage. This of course is a main danger of the SHRA, that without flexibility of unregulation things will begin to get past the Heroes, especially with them being all spread out.
I personally have never been too into the subjugation of one group of people for the benefit of another. Especially when the subjugation is racist (mutants) and preys on innocent children (Cloud 9.)
I've gotta say, "the mark of a true hero would be to fall in line" is something I've never heard before... Anyway, as I've said before, the situation was escalated not by the anti-reggers, but by the pro-reggers. Their "underground" was really equivilent to safe houses, meanwhile the pro-reggers were hiring supervillains to take out unregistered heroes.
"Super Criminal" is being used in this instance to evoke emotion. Anyway, that's really the point isn't it? If a country is imposing laws that demolish its moral authority to rule then its up to "Criminals" such as Ghandi and other "law breakers" (the entire French Revolution for example) to take a stand.
It is. Which prompts me to point to what I said about Revolutionaries being lifted up as heroes in hindsight. Your points about Speedball and his actions can be argued until the 'cows come home', but what the New Warriors should have done was call in for help instead of trying to do it on their own.Anyway, that's really the point isn't it? If a country is imposing laws that demolish its moral authority to rule then its up to "Criminals" such as Ghandi and other "law breakers" (the entire French Revolution for example) to take a stand.
I look at the Speedball issue, and the idea of Registration in general, from a much broader standpoint. The idea of a person owning a rocket launcher for example. Owning it is one thing. Deciding to use it to fight crime and causing a fair amount of destruction in the process is the problem. (Hence why the Punisher is looked at as a criminal and a murderer, even by other heros) The SHRA is not asking people with powers to burn a barcode into their foreheads, but is taking the utmost precaution in keeping their true identities secret. It gives them the choice to either stop using their powers to 'fight crime' and become members of normal society, or to join Shield and become authorized crime fighters. I think flaging them as 'second class citizens' is a little over the top in this situation.
The underground made themselves criminals by disregarding this new law and continuing to 'fight crime'. Regardless of what they were doing when they were attacked by the Pro-reg'ers, the PR's were vindicated by the law they were enforcing.
Do I agree with the SHRA as a whole? No. But 'falling in line' is, in my opinion, the right thing to do. As someone already pointed out, She-Hulk comes to mind. She will register and join shield so that she can continue to be a hero, but she will continue to fight the SHRA until it is dissolved. In the end, they are not asking heros to do anything more than they would ask an illegal alien who enters the US; register for a greencard. If they don't, they are criminals, regardless of how they live their lives as an illegal alien.
(Average person + Internet Forum + Anonymity = Screaming Douchebag)
"This is why I don't post often, *wink*"
But that isn't true. They're drafting anybody who wants to use their powers or even has them. Cloud 9 wasn't fighting crime, she was just flying, and yet suddenly she's in the military? I have other points to make on nuances of the issue, but I won't. The reason I don't think "fighting from the inside" is all that practicle is because people like She-Hulk may disagree but they are also being kept completely out of the power loop, and their fighting is doing nothing, just as it would do in real life.
It is up to the subjugated portion of the population (this isn't as communist as it sounds) to take a stand up en-masse and demand their rights, by herself She-Hulk is completely inneffective, something shown by her being yanked around in the Baldwin case. If there was room for dialogue on the issue my take on the SHRA would be different, but I don't feel that there is. (They're Hiring Nazi's!!) (P.S. Personally though, I would have preferred a non-violent demonstration/sit-in outside a registration office rather than the course taken)
I will say that I think you are missing my point. I did not say that She-Hulk would singlehandedly bring an end to the SHRA. Imagine however every anti-reg hero standing up and fighting this through proper channels. I am also sorry, but either I have never read, or heard about, heroes being drafted into Shield against their will. So I cannot remark about Cloud9.It is up to the subjugated portion of the population (this isn't as communist as it sounds) to take a stand up en-masse and demand their rights, by herself She-Hulk is completely inneffective, something shown by her being yanked around in the Baldwin case.
(Average person + Internet Forum + Anonymity = Screaming Douchebag)
"This is why I don't post often, *wink*"
This is not anyones fault. There is alot of reading of multiple titles to get all the facts. I eluded to this earlier. But...the direction this is going in is that it is not going to work. The whole point to all of it is to show why taking away civil liberties will lead us down a path that we dont want to go down and that that path could be our possible downfall.
You may say I'm a dreamer...but I'm not the only one.
Venom: I want to bite their heads off and shove my tongue down their neck holes.
Songbird: Why?
Venom: So I can lick out their hearts.
the real question is how long do we think this will last before it is overthrown in a different cross-promotional thingy
That is the million dollar question.
You may say I'm a dreamer...but I'm not the only one.
Venom: I want to bite their heads off and shove my tongue down their neck holes.
Songbird: Why?
Venom: So I can lick out their hearts.
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