SHRA : Good or Bad ? (Omega Flight #2 Spoilers)

[Powersurge]

Of course it's Iron man's fault. Liz is just calling him on it. As she said...Canada has had it's own Registration Act for a while now, but the Canadian super heroes never turned on each other, nor did they kill each other because of it. It is Iron man's (and Reed Richards') fault that Giant-Man/Goliath (Bill Foster) is dead, He and Reed created the Thor clone that killed him. They've taken away the freedoms of any hero that opposes them....And it's definitely Tony's/the Registration Act's fault that villains are heading to Canada.

She's only telling it like it is, that Tony and the Pro-Reg "heroes" will do/have done anything to see their goals met and Tony doesn't care who gets hurt or killed in the process. The whole Civil War Pro-Reg mentality is that of a police state, taking away all the freedoms from her citizens and forcing them to conform...All the while stating it's for their own good.

As far as Stamford being the fault of the New Warriors...That is a load of hooey! The New Warriors did not kill the people of Stamford...Nitro did. The same thing could have happened if Iron Man, Ms. Marvel or even Spider-Man had tried to stop Nitro. Nitro's power is to explode and nobody around is safe. If you blame the New warriors for the deaths of the people of Stamford, then you might as well blame the original Captain Marvel for not stopping Nitro in the first place, all those years ago. Nitro has faced Mar-Vell, Spider-Man, Luke Cage, Daredevil and even Iron Man himself...Are they all to blame for Stamford?

Dana

Hogwash. Fearmongering hogwash, that doesn't even begin to acknowledge points that run contrary to the stated beliefs... such as the granting of amnesty to hordes of anti-reg'ers following the final battle.

As for Nitro; what happened with him happened where it happened as a rsult of the NEGLIGENCE of the New Warriors. Just like if a cop engages a fleeing vechicle in a high speed pursuit through a residential area, and someone gets hit, it is as a result of the cops negligence. This is why they are TRAINED to break-off such pursuits, and why they are held responsible if they don't.

Arguements about how the New Warriors are not responsible for Stamford are one of the main reasons why I'm with the Pro-Reg'ers.

And Liz ain't telling it like it is. She fumbled the ball, her friend got hurt and she's looking for someone to blame. Someone who, conveniently enough, is not herself. She is being a complete hypocrit.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Hogwash. Fearmongering hogwash, that doesn't even begin to acknowledge points that run contrary to the stated beliefs... such as the granting of amnesty to hordes of anti-reg'ers following the final battle.

Yes...But only if they register and allow themselves to carted off to an internment/training camp, built on the graveyard that was Stamford...Some amnesty.

As for Nitro; what happened with him happened where it happened as a rsult of the NEGLIGENCE of the New Warriors. Just like if a cop engages a fleeing vechicle in a high speed pursuit through a residential area, and someone gets hit, it is as a result of the cops negligence. This is why they are TRAINED to break-off such pursuits, and why they are held responsible if they don't.

Please...Do you honestly think that Nitro wouldn't have detonated himself, if the New warriors had backed off? That's a joke. He was there for a reason and his powers were amped for a reason...Tony Stark's hands were in it and the New Warriors were his scapegoats.

Arguements about how the New Warriors are not responsible for Stamford are one of the main reasons why I'm with the Pro-Reg'ers.

And Liz ain't telling it like it is. She fumbled the ball, her friend got hurt and she's looking for someone to blame. Someone who, conveniently enough, is not herself. She is being a complete hypocrit.

She didn't blame anyone outright about Sasquatch...She didn't point a finger at Iron Man and say it was all his fault Sassy got beat up and is now missing. She didn't fumble a ball...And who's to say that she doesn't blame herself? You're the only one who is saying that.

She's also upset, frustrated and angry about the situation, she's bound to vent at somebody. Iron Man was an easy target, that's all. What's hypocritical about that?

Dana

[Powersurge]

Yes, I honestly believe that if Namorita DIDN'T tackle Nitro in front of a schoolyard FULL OF CHILDREN, slamming him into a schoolbus, and then proceed to DARE HIM to blow up, he wouldn't have. To imagine otherwise is, to be frank, a joke. And a bad joke at that.

Liz needs to chill, and get off her high horse. AS things stand she blames the US for offering a helping hand. However, she would blame them just the same for not offering a helping hand.

She should be so noble as to offer a helping hand. Unfortunately, for Sasq, she's not.

I now know who I like less than Pointer.

[DelBubs]

Split from other thread so as not to derail it.
Origin Thread.

[Le Messor]

When I read the thread title, I didn't realise this had #2 spoilers, which I've been avoiding.
(My fault. I shouldn't even be here today, I'm wasting time that'd be better spent. I shouldn't be on until Sunday, and by then I should have read #2.)

That said, instead of a topic about Talisman's hypocrisy or not, to answer the thread title:

When I first heard the SHRA, it was 'fair enough'. Superheroes want to arrest criminals, they should be part of an organised law-enforcement agency. I'm totally on board with that.

However, they lost me when Stark arrested Luke Cage. Cage wasn't doing anything but watching TV. He hadn't had a chance to register yet--one minute after the law came into effect, at midnight, before any government office opened, they arrested him.
That's when they lost me, when they started applying it to anyone who simply had powers, rather than those who tried to use them to fight crime.

Enforced by Cloud 9 in The Initiative.

- Le Messor
"Don't be humble, you're not that great."
- Golda Meir

[Dfense75]

The SHRA is a good "idea". However...how its being implemented and executed is inherently unamerican and illegal. When someone uses "powers" there is no trial or due process. They are forced to join the hero army or have their powers removed. Not getting into all the other illegal and possibly treasonous acts that Tony Stark has commited behind the scenes to make this happen SHRA as it is WRONG. If you have ever read the classic X-Men story from the Claremont/Byrne era "Days of Future Past". This is the future of these actions. A military state where actions are taken for the supposed "safety" of the public at the expense of the people they are oppresing. You think its right that Bullseye as horrible a human being as he is has been injected with nanites that will electracute and possibly permanently damage him against his will with no trail? Im sorry but if you dont see that the Marvel writers are using the Initiative and Civil War to give an example of the possible civil liberties we are going to lose over this bull**** war on terror than your blind. The inherent message in the story are that these things are wrong. The writing is on the wall for the Initiative and the SHRA to fail. The best point made so far has been made by Talisman herself. Canada did it right. Not to get to much into R/L politics but I truly envy the mindsight of Canada and their political pratices. America IMO is the next great empire to fall. If my girlfriend didnt hate the cold so much I would have moved north years ago. The foreign policies of my country truly disgust me. Its sad to say but I dont believe the problems will be fixed. The average American is way to comfortable to rise up and speak let alone vote to make true change happen.

[Powersurge]

In regards to the SRA; I support the spirit of the Act, and even moreso the lands and institutions of the West, which allow for the freedom of speech and the ability to challenge, ammend, and if need be overturn laws.

I don't support folks who exercise power over others in order to force those others to obey a system that they are themselves excessively reluctant, even fearful, to bow down to. Nor do I support folks that turn a blind eye to the faults in the system until those faults show up at their own doorstep. I can hear the implicit slogan even as I write this, "Save an Avenger, Kill a mutant".

If the government and the West way of life is so evil and corrupt, it should be overthrown and replaced with something better; although the last time I checked the nations of the West, the U.S.A. included, represent the best in the world... WORTS and all.

And if it doesn't suck so bad, then it is time to get with the program and work within the system to challenge those components that need changing.
This as opposed to being the first to throw a punch or fire a bullet as the prefered method of conflict resolution.

Like virtually everything that exists outside of an ivorytower, the SRA is both good and bad. The system that spawned it however takes for granted that the prototype will not be perfect and that these things take work. It is a democratic system that embodies the will of the people.

And so long as selflessness, as opposed to selfishness, remains the cornerstone of heroism, the people are what it's all about.

[Dfense75]

In regards to the SRA; I support the spirit of the Act, and even moreso the lands and institutions of the West, which allow for the freedom of speech and the ability to challenge, ammend, and if need be overturn laws.

I don't support folks who exercise power over others in order to force those others to obey a system that they are themselves excessively reluctant, even fearful, to bow down to. Nor do I support folks that turn a blind eye to the faults in the system until those faults show up at their own doorstep. I can hear the implicit slogan even as I write this, "Save an Avenger, Kill a mutant".

If the government and the West way of life is so evil and corrupt, it should be overthrown and replaced with something better; although the last time I checked the nations of the West, the U.S.A. included, represent the best in the world... WORTS and all.

And if it doesn't suck so bad, then it is time to get with the program and work within the system to challenge those components that need changing.
This as opposed to being the first to throw a punch or fire a bullet as the prefered method of conflict resolution.

Like virtually everything that exists outside of an ivorytower, the SRA is both good and bad. The system that spawned it however takes for granted that the prototype will not be perfect and that these things take work. It is a democratic system that embodies the will of the people.

And so long as selflessness, as opposed to selfishness, remains the cornerstone of heroism, the people are what it's all about.

I LOVE a good argument. I have to say Powersurge I have alot of respect for people that defend their beliefs to the last. For a democracy to work it truly takes all kinds. If one side where truly right and the other wrong the world would be a simpler place. However...If the world where a simpler place. Opinions would not be challenged and thought provoking conversation would never take place. We as a people, no matter where we are from should be measured as patriots not by how blindly we follow our governments. But how staunchly we challenge them. If we grow complacent than we die. Authority must always be challenged and questioned if we are to grow and evolve.

[Powersurge]

And authority should invite such challenge, as we have it in the West, if it is to remain authorative. And while I think that war is a viable option, it is only after all other avenues have been exhausted. The anti-reg's, as a whole, never showed much will to anything other than fight.

As for the "Days of the Future Past"; it might very well be that IM's deeds lead to that scenario.

On the otherhand, it is just as likely that his deeds might have stav-ed it off. If Tnoy and the other pro-reg'ers had of flipped the bird to the U.S. government and people, it wouldn't prove all that difficult for them to begin, if they'd not already, mass production of Sentinels, mandroid battlesuits, and draw on all conventional sources to wage war against the hitherto divided superhero community.

As it is, Stark, who has been said to be well aware of numerous variant futures, brought a higher level of organization, communciation and coordination to the superhero community, a community largely comprised of people with great conscience and strong values, and placed resources at their disposal that are simply mind-boggling.

Now, I'm not saying that just cause this may have staved off the "Days of Future Past" scenario that it won't itself turn of for the worse in the end. It could. Maybe the supers will decide that since all of us normal folk and our ways suck so bad, well, maybe they'll just overthrow our institutions and institute themselves as our ruling elite, using their vast powers to "shepherd" their "herd" in ways both gross and subtle. And for the "herds" own good, of course.

Could happen. Anything could happen. But people of conscience have to act, and they have to act according to what they believe is right. And the ordeal that ensues as we butt heads with other folk, just as conscientious as we ourselves, but with differing beliefs about what is right, well, thats how we improve ourselves, broaden our horizons, deepend our understnadings, correct our mistakes.

Yeehaw!!

[cmdrkoenig67]

Yes, I honestly believe that if Namorita DIDN'T tackle Nitro in front of a schoolyard FULL OF CHILDREN, slamming him into a schoolbus, and then proceed to DARE HIM to blow up, he wouldn't have. To imagine otherwise is, to be frank, a joke. And a bad joke at that.

Believe what you will, Pow...The whole thing was set up to happen...It would have happened, regardless...No joke.

Liz needs to chill, and get off her high horse. AS things stand she blames the US for offering a helping hand. However, she would blame them just the same for not offering a helping hand.

She should be so noble as to offer a helping hand. Unfortunately, for Sasq, she's not.

I now know who I like less than Pointer.

Disliking Liz for having a bad attitude? Probably means you never liked her, huh?

Dana

[Le Messor]

Yes, I honestly believe that if Namorita DIDN'T tackle Nitro in front of a schoolyard FULL OF CHILDREN, slamming him into a schoolbus, and then proceed to DARE HIM to blow up, he wouldn't have. To imagine otherwise is, to be frank, a joke. And a bad joke at that.

Believe what you will, Pow...The whole thing was set up to happen...It would have happened, regardless...No joke.

So, Dana, you're talking from behind the scenes (what Marvel would have made happen) and Powersurge, you're talking in the scene (what would have happened with those people in that scenario) ?

- Le Messor
"Don't eat muffins when I'm developing you."
- Evan, Black Books

[cmdrkoenig67]

As for the SHRA...I can see the positive aspects of it, but the methods used by Tony and Co. to put it into effect were/are monstrously wrong.

Some good points about the Act...

*Training for heroes who really need it.

*Giving heroes the option of actually arresting a villain.

*Enables S.H.I.E.L.D. to gather and mobilize large groups of heroes if the need comes up.

Some bad things about it...

*It's being used to force those who don't want to be super heroes to join their superhuman army.

*It makes the heroes potential targets, more so than before (should their identities be hacked/stolen from SH.I.E.L.D., etc....)

*I don't know about you, but I really don't want my Marvel universe to be patrolled by supercops...It totally defeats the idea of the traditional super hero. What is the point of them continuing to wear their regular costumes even...They might as well be put into some sort of Government-issue uniforms and have badges.

*Gives the government more control over the heroes...That's almost never a good thing.

*It's a massive invasion of privacy for those heroes...The govt. knows the heroes' names, can probably contact them whenever they want to...Would the govt. arrest heroes that don't/can't respond to emergency calls?...What if they're busy getting married, at a funeral, living their normal lives, etc...?

*The Act affords the heroes no more protection, than before...If the hero is ganged up on, can he/she call for back-up? She/he's SOL, if all the other heroes in the area are busy...Does anyone honestly think the government would send somebody to help them? Please....

[DelBubs]

When I read the thread title, I didn't realise this had #2 spoilers, which I've been avoiding.

My bad Mik, I should have picked up on that and put a warning in the title. God I feel bad now

Verity: Now I've got to get him to the fish tank and sing.
Husband: Oh.
Verity: (sings) And did those feet, in ancient time...

[Hyperstorm]

Yes, I honestly believe that if Namorita DIDN'T tackle Nitro in front of a schoolyard FULL OF CHILDREN, slamming him into a schoolbus, and then proceed to DARE HIM to blow up, he wouldn't have. To imagine otherwise is, to be frank, a joke. And a bad joke at that.

Except that Nitro was paid and supplied with MGH by Damage Control to blow up Stamford so that Damage Control could rebuild it. He would of blown up Stamford even if the New Warriors weren't there.

[Dfense75]

Yes, I honestly believe that if Namorita DIDN'T tackle Nitro in front of a schoolyard FULL OF CHILDREN, slamming him into a schoolbus, and then proceed to DARE HIM to blow up, he wouldn't have. To imagine otherwise is, to be frank, a joke. And a bad joke at that.

Except that Nitro was paid and supplied with MGH by Damage Control to blow up Stamford so that Damage Control could rebuild it. He would of blown up Stamford even if the New Warriors weren't there.

Very very true. Also a big reason the anti-reg's went directly to fighting is because the registration went directly to hunting them. Another main reason for the anti-registration stance was that they knew the government was corrupt. They knew having ANY government. Let alone the war mongering American goverment should not have a super hero army at its disposal. After M-day America has the single most concentrated population of super beings of any country on the planet. Thats dangerous. Besides recognizing the dangers of giving them an army. They did not want or trust the American government to tell them who their enemies are. The registration side did many illegal and morally questionable actions to obtain their means. Thats what makes them wrong. Alot of the behind the scenes actions of Tony Stark where touched on in Civil War: Frontline. Should Tony have lost Civil War he was going to generate a war with Atlantis to force his army into existence. Creating a war, civilian casualties be damned he was prepared to due. Do the ends justify the means. No they dont. Also read the Illuminati mini series. Its touching on even more that was being done by Tony and the rest of the Illuminati to gain power and control. Iron Man is on his way to being a dictator. He has proven that he thinks that only he is capable of "protecting" the american people and do whatever he needs to to accomplish that. That includes murder, lying, the attemted murder of Hulk(cant wait for him to get back and tear the Illuminati a new one) Hiring and employing mass murders, cloning(which is illegal even though i dont agree with that), encarcerating americans without trial, and having a possible war in his back pocket as a contingency plan. My point is simple I agree with registration in principal. But its underlying goal by the man who is organizing it is less than honest, genuine, and is for his own purposes.