SADNESS from a FAN of the REAL ALPHA FLIGHT

[SNOWCHILD]

Fellow Alphans,

Please don't get me wrong. It's just that Byrne's run was so polished, linear, crisp and brilliant. Every character was so rounded-out and perfect, almost 'magnificent'. I found the secret origins of each Alphan so compelling that it was truly impossible to not feel big "empathy" towards THEM ALL!

I have very confused memories about #14-28... so please, sum up the whole arc for me. It wasn't about the stories, but the characters. The greatest and most original characters ever conceived.


Birdygirl,

I love ANNE! She's my favourite heroine, ex-equo with Marrina. When I was a kid, I used to dream about a solo TV series featuring Narya/Anne MacKenzie/Snowbird as lead character. That would have been a blast!

So yes, I'm a cosmic fan. I love her coldness, secret origins, powers, and the whole Anne MacKenzie persona gimmick.

[Barnacle13]

I find this fawning over the original 28 issues a bit fogey-ish. I mean everyone is always going "They had a run of over 120 issues in their original volume!" but then in the next breath everyone bashes anything after issue 28! I like alot of stuff after issue 28. Just because the team changes and sometimes the writing is off doesn't mean that anything after 28 has to be seen as "less than."

I personally am in the minority that really liked Volume #2. Flex was a fun character and I loved Radius' pompousness, I'd love to see him come back in the Guardian suit! Mainly because he always felt he should be in charge. There would be some great stories and character development around his failures (no matter how small). Much of the later V1 stuff was good too. I just kinda lost interest when Alpha Flight contained more Beta Flight stories than AF stories (late in the series). I loved the reformation of Wild Child & Diamond Lil. I just think after issue #28 the series began losing continuity (team, character, and storyline). Much of the characterization later in V1 was good, but it concentrated too much on Betans (Manikin, Witchfire, etc.) when there was plenty to prusue from the main characters of the book (Heather, Puck, Sas, Weapon Omega, Diamond Lil, Box/Jefferies).

So to be fair I don't think most folks outright bash everything that came after #28, but the Mantlo era certainly doesn't have many fans. Neither does V3 for that matter. If it were otherwise, you wouldn't have folks showing up here saying "I love Wild Child! They NEED to bring him back!" or "Windshear was an awesome character that had massive potential." Most folks here love most things Alpha. I'd wager to say there are a few out there that can't stand the Byrne run and are only here because of V2 or V3. There are plenty of things spread throughout 3 volumes that most of us could live without (Raazer anyone?). Also, even us old timers found something worthwhile during the Mantlo run, or we'd have bailed many years ago. And for the record I'd even take Mantlo Alpha Flight over no Alpha Flight!

[Barnacle13]

BTW folks it looks like Manikin might be on to us! Run and hide in the cupboard we've been figured out!

Check his sig above! We've been outed!

[Michael Connell]

The original Alpha's are best!

[DMK]

Interesting thread.

I'm a big fan of the original Flight, as portrayed in Byrne's 28 issues. Really good stuff.

As for the Mantlo era... well, the less said there, the better, imho. While I enjoy some of the characters he created, on a whole the run was a disaster. And it still stands, I believe, as the longest run by any writer on the flight. 38 issues and 2 annuals. Ack. I still blame that run for the long-term destruction of the Flight.

James Hudnall I liked a lot better. Probably because he set about restoring what Mantlo damaged. Boom! Sasquatch is a man again, and orange. Boom! Shaman gives up the Talisman back to Elizabeth. Boom! The kids go off to normal lives. Heck, by the end of it he even had the twins back to normal.

Fabian Nicieza is one of my favourite writers in comics. Love the man's work. And I really enjoyed his run on the Flight. Even if he only brought back Mac in order to kill him off again.

As for Scott Lobdell's run? I really liked it. It was funny, but respectful. Too short, imho.

Simon Furman was... ok. Not bad, but not great either. I enjoyed the Beta Flight stuff he did.

I enjoyed v2 more than v3. Seagle got off to a slow start, but I liked where he was going towards the end. Lobdell's second kick at the can, on the other hand, was far too silly. Although some of the characters had promise.

As for Omega Flight... the first issue was promising. Looking forward to #2.

[birdygirl]

Dear Snowchild,

It's so terrific meeting another Snowbird fan. I would have loved a Snowbird TV series myself.

I was depressed when Snowbird and her family died, and elated when she returned, (I didn't even care that it didn't make sense in Alpha continuity, I was so glad to have her back).

Do you have a favorite Snowbird story? Least favorite?

Did you know about the excellent Snowbird website, "Snowbird's Loft"? It's produced by our own Dark Snowbird, and is about all things Birdie. Well worth your time!

[cmdrkoenig67]

The original Alpha's are best!

A lot of us feel that way (I personally love the original AF more than any other version), Marvel bosses unfortuately do not...I only hope that a change in editoral (EIC and all) or some miraculous change of heart will someday bring them back.

Dana

[SNOWCHILD]

Dear Snowchild,

It's so terrific meeting another Snowbird fan. I would have loved a Snowbird TV series myself.

I was depressed when Snowbird and her family died, and elated when she returned, (I didn't even care that it didn't make sense in Alpha continuity, I was so glad to have her back).

Do you have a favorite Snowbird story? Least favorite?

Did you know about the excellent Snowbird website, "Snowbird's Loft"? It's produced by our own Dark Snowbird, and is about all things Birdie. Well worth your time!

Birdy... got to see such beautiful, marvellous, wonderful, amazing website! Please give me the link.

My favourite issue has to be "SNOWBLIND", however. Groundbreaking comic book art, that's what really is.

Snowbird never died... it wasn't CANONICAL. ALPHA FLIGHT #1-28 and the Uncanny X-Men appearances... that's what truly the CANON in my mind. So Anne never really died. Not in the BYRNE-CONTINUUM, at least.

Please, everyone, let's do this holy summary.

ALPHA FLIGHT #28 (THE END):

Character by character, sum-up the "final status" for everyone in #28. Also, let's state once and for all Alpha Flight's status as team of Superheroes in #28.

[SNOWCHILD]

Whoa, I've found it... what can I say? It's BRILLIANT! Dark Snowbird must get a lot of passion, the site is full of heart and it shows. BRILLIANT!
I loved it.

Mmmmmmm... another nasty inconsistency popped up in my mind. In the story of the FIRST FLIGHT, the Alpha Flight annual (which I always have found excellent --- when I was 17 years old, I owned the American issue), Snowbird is depicted while she transforms into a SMALL-sized owl, which is incorrect! It seems that she can morph in HUMAN-SIZED animals, in the case she picks up a "small" form.

[Flightpath07]

I find this fawning over the original 28 issues a bit fogey-ish. I mean everyone is always going "They had a run of over 120 issues in their original volume!" but then in the next breath everyone bashes anything after issue 28! I like alot of stuff after issue 28. Just because the team changes and sometimes the writing is off doesn't mean that anything after 28 has to be seen as "less than."

I personally am in the minority that really liked Volume #2. Flex was a fun character and I loved Radius' pompousness, I'd love to see him come back in the Guardian suit! Mainly because he always felt he should be in charge. There would be some great stories and character development around his failures (no matter how small). Much of the later V1 stuff was good too. I just kinda lost interest when Alpha Flight contained more Beta Flight stories than AF stories (late in the series). I loved the reformation of Wild Child & Diamond Lil. I just think after issue #28 the series began losing continuity (team, character, and storyline). Much of the characterization later in V1 was good, but it concentrated too much on Betans (Manikin, Witchfire, etc.) when there was plenty to prusue from the main characters of the book (Heather, Puck, Sas, Weapon Omega, Diamond Lil, Box/Jefferies).

So to be fair I don't think most folks outright bash everything that came after #28, but the Mantlo era certainly doesn't have many fans. Neither does V3 for that matter. If it were otherwise, you wouldn't have folks showing up here saying "I love Wild Child! They NEED to bring him back!" or "Windshear was an awesome character that had massive potential." Most folks here love most things Alpha. I'd wager to say there are a few out there that can't stand the Byrne run and are only here because of V2 or V3. There are plenty of things spread throughout 3 volumes that most of us could live without (Raazer anyone?). Also, even us old timers found something worthwhile during the Mantlo run, or we'd have bailed many years ago. And for the record I'd even take Mantlo Alpha Flight over no Alpha Flight!

Barn (can I call you Barn?), I wholeheartedly agree!
By the way, "I love Wild Child! They NEED to bring him back!"
lol

[Le Messor]

I find this fawning over the original 28 issues a bit fogey-ish. I mean everyone is always going "They had a run of over 120 issues in their original volume!" but then in the next breath everyone bashes anything after issue 28! I like alot of stuff after issue 28. Just because the team changes and sometimes the writing is off doesn't mean that anything after 28 has to be seen as "less than."

There's a lot of good, even some great stuff post 28. But none of it is as good as the first 28. Imho, of course.

Cleared up? If not:

Please don't get me wrong. It's just that Byrne's run was so polished, linear, crisp and brilliant. Every character was so rounded-out and perfect, almost 'magnificent'. I found the secret origins of each Alphan so compelling that it was truly impossible to not feel big "empathy" towards THEM ALL!

I have very confused memories about #14-28... so please, sum up the whole arc for me. It wasn't about the stories, but the characters. The greatest and most original characters ever conceived.

Let's see... 14-16: Heather and Puck fight the creature under the water from 'Creepshow'. They bring back Marrina and the Submariner for this battle.
Marrina then helps Power Pack fight a giant cobra; the rest of AF then finally defeat it, with the help of Spider-Man.

17: Flashback to UXM 109.

18: Heather decides to lead the team. Shaman battles one of the Great Beasts, and Snowbird starts her romance with Doug.

19: Heather, Puck, and Snowbird go help Shaman battle the Great Beast. Shaman's daughter, Elizabeth, joins them--and becomes Talisman. All but Heather travel back in time.
The team meet up with the X-Men to stop Loki from saving the world.

20-21: While Aurora begins developing a third personality, she and Sas fight Gilded Lily, his great aunt. They find a new team headquarters.

22: Aurora flies away from Sas, to meet up with her brother. His past as a terrorist comes out.
Shaman helps Iron Man (Rhodes) overcome his developing headaches.

23: Sasquatch battles... Sasquatch! He's revealed to be a Great Beast, and Snowbird takes his form to duel to the death! Snowbird wins when Sas loses heart.

24: The team travels to the realm of the Great Beasts, which was made before they invented colour, to bring Sas's soul back from the dead.
They succeed, but they forgot that a soul needs a body. He takes over the Box robot, but a robot ain't good 'nuff for him. Or, more to the point, for Aurora.

25-27: Guardian's back... and this time, he's madder than ever. With a ridiculous back from the dead story, he returns to lead the team against the original and evillest Omega Flight. Back when Wild Child had distinctive character. But is he leading Alpha against Omega? Or Omega against Alpha?
It's the second. For Guardian is really... Old Man Withers, who runs the abandoned amusement park.
No, wait, Delphine Courtney, robotic leader of Omega.
Shaman loses his daughter in his medicine pouch.
The Beyonder finds her again.

28: Sas goes fishing for a new body. Talisman runs off and sulks. Or, considering who she is, she sulks, and makes everybody else run off. Snowbird goes to a love hideaway with Doug. Northstar is estranged from the team, but still hanging around. Aurora is developing a third personality. Heather is leader, but without the suit. Jeffries (not yet Maddison) has helped the team against Courtney. Puck's still Puck. He hasn't yet been repossessed. The One Ring is on its way to Mount Doom, and with it the hopes of Gondor.

- Le Messor
Manny: "Do you think I should wash my beard?"
Bernard: "I think you should, yeah. You should wash your beard, then shave it off, nail it to a Frisbee and fling it over a rainbow. "

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I find this fawning over the original 28 issues a bit fogey-ish. I mean everyone is always going "They had a run of over 120 issues in their original volume!" but then in the next breath everyone bashes anything after issue 28! I like alot of stuff after issue 28. Just because the team changes and sometimes the writing is off doesn't mean that anything after 28 has to be seen as "less than."

...and I don't think it's fawning now to point out that the first 28 issues hold together better than the stories/continuity that came after it. Moreover, none of the promises that were made when the switch occured were kept: Alpha Flight did not become a better seller at the newstand,
Alpha Flight did not become a more cohesive team, and Alpha Flight did not give the readers what they wanted. If it did, and this can be substantiated, then a case could be made that appreciating whatever craftsmenship and professionalism that went into the first 28 issues is fawning.

I find it fawning to make excuses and apologies for veteran comic creators who obviously did not care for the characters who they were working on, the out-of-sequence in which the comics were published, the blatant inconsistencies in plot and characterization, and the underlying reasons that the series was less than mediocre, starting with # 29.

[SNOWCHILD]

Le Messor,

Your summary is really top-notch stuff... great! My biggest congrats.

My questions:

17- What characters are featured in this "flashback" issue? Guardian as 'Weapon Alpha' against Wolverine? Alpha Flight (minus Marrina and Puck)?

19- When Elizabeth became Talisman, did she also join Alpha Flight in an "official" way?

24- Had the Box robot been destroyed by Guardian in #12? Has Jeffries or Roger rebuilt it?

27- Does Alpha Flight defeat Omega Flight once and for all?

28- What's the status of Jeffries at this point? Did Aurora really add that silly blue foulard to her brand-new yellow/white costume?
What's the status of Talisman at this point?

Overall, is Marvel going to re-issue as TRADE PAPERBACK format issues #8-16 and so on?

Many thanks!

[Le Messor]

Thank you.

17- It was UXM #109, so 'Weapon Alpha'.

19-Nope.

24-Yes to both. (Jeffries AND Roger rebuilt it.)

27-They end up running away from the inside-out medicine pouch which Byrne's forgotten. (see his forum and other threads.) I believe Jeffries 'arrests' them.

28-Not a team member, but near the team before Talisman teleported them away.
Yes, but I think it was later, during Mantlo's run; however, she now feels the cold (mentioned in #20), since Walt re-mutated her.
Pissed off.

Not a clue, but it took them this long to do the first run.

Sorry, I didn't actually look through the issues this time. :/

- Le Messor
"Don't be irreplaceable. If you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted."

[Theta_Ray_Bill]

I'll be honest, heck, as a Canadian saying it.

The original Alpha Flight was too muddled, and basically destroyed by bad writers. Bryne himself wasn't so great. Mac, heather, Sasquatch and Aurora are awesome in my opion, but the books never really worked for me at the end of the day.