Civil War: The Initiative- (SPOILERS!!) Alpha Flight related

[Phil]

I actually wrote: "I'm sure not every person from these places has these hangups" and thus did not speak for every single Scott/Welsh/Irish person alive. I was merely pointing out an attitude which I have found among many of my friends from these places and which I have been informed by these friends is a widespread belief. I'm deeply sorry if my reporting these beliefs has offended you Phil.

Never once did I say I was offended.
Nice use of sarcasm there too., really adds to the maturity of your point. As does the double standards...

Really though, I wouldn't get all defensive if someone wrote "Canadians like hockey" even though there are exceptions to this. I don't expect someone to write academically: "There is widespread sentiment among the Canadian population that Hockey is an enjoyable sport, as evidenced by its place as one of Canada's two national sports. It must be noted however that not all Canadians like Hockey, some people find its violence distasteful, while others dislike it for other reasons. The exact number of Canadians professing to like hockey is X%. (Source: X)." People make informed generalizations, that isn't anything new, and that is what I did.

Yet you get defensive about a fictional American character wearing a Canadian flag and chastise me for not feeling the empathy of Canada and thus hating the book, before it's even out?

Oh, and many sources still refer to Ireland as a member of the British Isles. http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/Regions/ We know better but it's just easier. Less letters.

Many sources state Al Gore created the interweb... That's the thing with the interweb...

[Phil]

Oh please. I didn't ask you to stereotype an entire nation's thoughts, or any of the other garbage you're talking about in your reply. I tried to use a local example that might illustrate my viewpoint to you.

You wanted me to imagine how A Scotsman would feel, implying that every single Scotsman feels the same as you expect every single Canadian to feel hatred for the fact that an American is wearing the mapleleafed suit.
We've already had Ben, who is a patriotic Canadian, stating that he's not disgusted with the character wearing the costume so that's already shown the diversity there is and that I shouldn't boycott the book because of it.

Thanks for the strawman though. Any other intellectual fallacies you'd like to toss my way while you're at it?

I don't believe I have, merely given you an opposing opinion to your own which you apparantly cannot handle....

[Phil]

Right, but my point is, that not being Canadian I don't have that to base it upon.

I know, that was why I was trying to explain it to you.

I understand your explanation I just cannot feel it, if you get me?
I commend your rational debate of the issue and have no problems at all with what you wrote.

[Le Messor]

I post this not as a condemnation of the OF series (which I haven't read yet) nor as a condemnation of Mailman Mike being on the team.
As always, I will decide what I think of the series WHEN (not IF) I buy it. If it's only 5 issues, there's not much gonna make me not buy all of them.

This post is, however, a condemnation of one aspect of all that; as Corvus and others have said.

BTW, you should be glad, because when Millar FIRST told me about this series, before Oeming was even on-board, the plan was for an ALL AMERICAN team.

I should be glad because it could be worse? That's not how I think. Sorry.
I don't like the idea of people threatening me with something terrible, then giving me something slightly less terrible, and expecting me to be happy about it.
"I'm gonna cut your arm off!!!" NOOOOOOOOOO!!!! "Okay, I'll just cut your hand off. You should be so grateful!"
(Just my way of showing how people could abuse such a concept, not saying Omega is bad, certainly not comparing it to loss of limb.)

"Postman Mike" was NOT in control of himself when he killed AF.
This is a ... way to get the attention of readers that wouldn't normally get a "flight" book.
...lets read it...
I feel pretty sure that Oeming has some interesting angles planned if he decided to use this character.

Marvel has put out what it feels will give omega the best chance to succeed, whether we agree or not.

To me, this is only one TRUE Guardian and he died an amazing death in Alpha Flight #12 and that was the end of his story. Canada's hero was never the costume, it was the man inside the costume. To me, Alpha Flight was never about BEING Canada or Canadian, it was about being in service TO Canada and Canadians.
I think that was always the point of the team.

For the first time I see a leader who has something to vindicate..
he feels personally responsable for something and now has devoted his life to making sure no one else can do that...
I think, written the right way, it will be Postman Mike that soars Omega into an ongoing.

(Apologies for extreme quotation here...)

These points have two things in common:
1) They are all very good points.
2) Not one of them excuses draping the Canadian flag around a non-Canadian.

If Mailman Mike is on the team, at least have the decency to use a different costume.
It's like having a German as Captain America--or one of the 9/11 hijackers. (But I like Oeming's suggestion of making Lee Harvey Oswald president. )
I wouldn't like an Australian in the Maple Leaf suit, either.

As for who? Why not take an officer from the Canadian milit'ry? It'd make total sense to the characters, even if none of the readers have heard of him / her before. (And therefore, we're letting sales dictate story. Never a good idea.)

Come to think of it, a non-Canadian 'Captain Canada' defending Canada next to a USAian 'Captain America'... What're you trying to say here?
Come to think of it, the guy who slaughtered AF on a team named after the one that killed the original Mac... What're you trying to say here?

I have my doubts about a USAian team being able to portray Canada positively.

It's annoying to know that no matter what things your nation accomplishes, it's always considered a second class version of the US.

We (Australians... me, anyways) love you! "Americans go south of the border to buy cheap food and clothing in some backwards country, while Canadians go south of the border to buy cheap food and clothing in some backwards country."

Buy this book and in mass quantities so it can last long enough for Omeing to make some changes.

But if I buy it in large quantities, Marvel will think it doesn't NEED changes!
Promising change is how they got me to buy so many issues of v2.

walter has never been a leader

Are you forgetting v3?
If so, explain how!

Well that puts to bed the comment of seeing only one Canadian in the prom art, huh?

Ironically, by making the 'one Canadian' most people saw--the person in the Maple Leaf--not Canadian.

...the past two volumes' attempts at recreating Byrne's dysfunctional family.

Their what now? I saw no attempt at anything remotely Byrnese in either book.

I see OF less as a fourth volume or a spin off, but more as AF characters being used in another title, similar to Northstar in X-Men etc, and will be personally judging the story on a similar scale.

I'm beginning to agree with you there.
However, if I agreed with you completely, I wouldn't pick it up. Other than being 'Alpha Flight' and the art, nothing about OF particularly interests me. This isn't a judgement of the quality of the book. It a judgement of the concept. If OF had nothing to do with AF, it'd barely touch my personal radar.

Really though, I wouldn't get all defensive if someone wrote "Canadians like hockey"

Not that long ago, in America, I read a textbook which listed Australia's national religion as beer. I laughed.
I don't drink.

Nice use of sarcasm there too., really adds to the maturity of your point. As does the double standards...

Speaking of sarcasm and double standards...

- Le Messor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE

[Corvus]

Oh please. I didn't ask you to stereotype an entire nation's thoughts, or any of the other garbage you're talking about in your reply. I tried to use a local example that might illustrate my viewpoint to you.

You wanted me to imagine how A Scotsman would feel, implying that every single Scotsman feels the same as you expect every single Canadian to feel hatred for the fact that an American is wearing the mapleleafed suit.
We've already had Ben, who is a patriotic Canadian, stating that he's not disgusted with the character wearing the costume so that's already shown the diversity there is and that I shouldn't boycott the book because of it.

Thanks for the strawman though. Any other intellectual fallacies you'd like to toss my way while you're at it?

I don't believe I have, merely given you an opposing opinion to your own which you apparantly cannot handle....

I never once implied that you should attempt to speak for everything single Scot. Go re-read my post. I specifically said "a Scot, and a nationalist one, might feel" Note the might, not will. Note the use of the nationalist adjective.

a Scot=/= Every Scot. I'm well aware that our kilt wearing friends are not a borg like gestalt entity. It seems most of your hand-waving dismissal of my opinion comes down to a failure of reading comprehension. It doesn't bother me that people disagree with me. Being disagreed with on the basis of things I never said is annoying though.

I'm not sure what the source of the comment about boycotting the book is. I've only ever said that the decision to put Pointer in the Guardian suit kills most of my interest in the series. Whether other people reconsider whether or not they'll support the series is up to them, and I've never argued that people shouldn't support the series just because of what I consider to be a significant flaw.

[Obsidian3d]

I would recommend picking up The Initiative to most of the folks who are thinking about grabbing Omega Flight. I'd also say that Choosing Sides would be a good purchase too. They're not necessary, but do a nice job of setting things up for the mini.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I'm picking up Civil War: The Initiative, but I have no intention of grabbimg the Choosing Sides book...I can't stand the USAgent...He's one of the reasons I don't like this OF line-up (Michael Pointer is now another). There are a lot of strikes against this Omega Flight (IMO) and it seems they just keep adding more and more.

Dana

[Obsidian3d]

I've never actively disliked USAgent, but it's been a long time since I read anything about him other than Choosing Sides. I know he used to be a member of Force Works with War Machine, but my reading experience with him was back in the early 90s when he was introduced as a replacement when Steve Rogers became The Captain. I still remember the cool cover on Captain America #350 with the two of them duking it out.

I even made a USAgent custom figure for my upcoming Omega Flight team (I'm only two members short of it being complete)...but I wish I'd used the red/black/red/black color scheme on his shield that they put on the Silvestri piece...but what can ya do about that eh? :P

I'm looking forward to see what they do with Talisman. I'm getting more and more of a feeling that people will like this book, regardless of whether they were fans of old-skool AF or not. I can't say exactly WHY that is, but I'm hopeful that we might yet see an ongoing series here...

[Le Messor]

I've just read the issue.

A lot of the time, the world outside the USA likes to call Americans 'arrogant'. I think of it more as national solipsism than arrogance--the philosophy that nobody but you exists.

I think this issue has really played it up. Putting an Alaskan in a suit was part of it; but not all.
I felt it strongest when Carol Danvers and Tony Stark were having their conversation; how many times did she say "Every superhero in the world" was at his disposal? (Sorry, only the ones in the USA; but you're solipsistic, aren't you, Carol? Tony? There is no rest of the world.)
Then, when he calls up the images of potential Avengers, they include Black Panther, Storm, and Namor--all of them foreigners, all of them dignitaries-- and he has the presumption to assume he can just call them up and order them into the Avengers.

He's not only discounting the rest of the world, and the fact that it might not have registration, he's also taking for granted that the RULERS of foreign nations will come at his beck and call, like trained dogs. Or citizens of his own country.
(SHIELD being UN is irrelevant; he's using American laws for this.)

This is the problem, this is the solipsism, the arrogance, the presumption, that makes the idea of a USAian in the Canadian flag leave such a bad taste for us damn far'ners. Speaking only for those who are left with a bad taste, of course.

- Le Messor
"America's part of the world? I have been gone a long time!"
- Fry, Futurama

[Corvus]

On a lighter note:



The guy at Near Mint Heroes has done a series of Photoshops of various war propaganda posters themed on Civil War. Fun stuff.

http://www.nearmintheroes.org/blog/?m=20070314

[Flightpath07]

solipsistic

?
Is that anything like "dip-stick", that thing we use to check the oil level in our automobile?

[Ottawa Renegade]

To me, Alpha Flight was never about BEING Canada or Canadian, it was about being in service TO Canada and Canadians.

I think that was always the point of the team.

Argh. I'd stayed away from this site deliberately to avoid spoilers, just in case. But I have an Omega Flight wallpaper at work and someone who read the Ottawa Citizen article asked me how I felt about having more Americans on the team than Canadians. When he rattled off the Americans, I thought he'd pointed to Talisman so I corrected him.

"Not her. Him."

I apologize, folks, in that you've already been up and down this conversation so I'm probably going over a beaten path, but add my name to those among the heavily-disappointed.

I didn't expect Mac, but I expected an American even less. And I'm in agreement with anyone making a comparison with having someone of any other Nationality than American in the Captain America suit.

It particularly surprises me in that it appears that there's an awful lot of research done about the "classic" Flight. How a negative reaction here to this little development could not be foreseen boggles my mind.

I'll buy the book, but I don't buy this reasoning. I believe you honestly mean it, Mr Oeming, because you've given us no reason to think otherwise. But if it didn't occur to you that having Canadian characters on a Canadian-based team was also a big part of the appeal to the Canadian market, then I don't know how to politely say what I want to say next.

[Ottawa Renegade]

I would LOVE to see the a new Cap as a non-American- what better way to see our culture than through the eyes of a non-American?

Pitch that and see how well it goes over. And if it does get the green light, I look forward to the reaction of long-time Cap fans. I'd wager anything that you're in a significant minority in your interest in seeing that.

[Ottawa Renegade]

None of my faves were ever in the lineup, ever: Box, Feedback, Windshear, Witchfire, Nemesis, Puck, Zuzha, Flex, Ghost Girl, even Wild Child and Goblyn. I think Talisman and Sasquatch are OK but neither makes me want to write an AF story about them. Yet I pulled hard for OF to be a winner and did my part to show we wanted a series.

I'm pretty well the same. I bought the book because I thought having a National hero was cool. I grew to like some of the others, but there was no one else i'd follow around from book to book.

I was still surprised when the news of Omega came out at how little Can-con there was, but once the concept was explained I sold it to myself. But this is going down about as easily as a mouthful of Buckley's.

[sengsterooney]

I must have come very late to this thread - never picked up Civil War: The Initiative, so I've only just learned about the deaths of the Alphans (bar Sas) in this thread. This revelation saddens me - particularly the deaths of Heather and Puck, both of whom I consider integral characters in any Alpha-related teams.

Still, things happen and torches are passed, and I am looking forward to Omega -- in fact, I went down to my local store today, pre-ordered OF and picked up a bunch of CW issues today.