Civil War: The Initiative- (SPOILERS!!) Alpha Flight related

[kozzi24]

I think it is a PR mistake to have an American in the suit. Others have likened this to an Iraqi in the Captain America suit, but that's extreme. I think of it as having a Mexican in the Captain America suit, one who speaks only Spanish. That would NOT go over in the US. How would a Briton feel if the role of Captain Britain or Union Jack was assumed by an American, or a German? Except for the fact that it is not as visual of a gaffe, this could be Marvel's worse move since Mark Gurenwald's Black Bucky.

The suit aside, I am trying to remember that this is a team book. The Mailman can create further team dynamics and dysfunction. The prospects of this team actually getting along are slim, so that is fully in the AF tradition.

Alas, generally the Mailman reveal has killed a good part of my enthusiasm for the book. I will stilll be trying it, and there's a lot to look forward to.

I think this team is intended to be the Inititive team for Alaska, helping Canada. I don't think Talisman and Sas are going to let it become that.

Mike Oeming's script will have to work hard for me to accept motivation for Sasquatch allowing the Mailman to take the Guardian suit, both because the mailman is PRESUMABLY American (we don't know for sure that he was not born in canada or one of his parents is Canadian) and because of his role in AF's death.

As for the death itself...Sasquatch could be lying to motivate the Mailman. Sasquatch could have been lied to about the casualties. This is comics...deaths are not permanent, as we were warned in the first news article about Captain America #25.

I for one do NOT want to see Baby Hudson addressed too specifically in Omega, anything beyond a general "she's with Heather's parents." The more vague her circumstances are kept, the more of a chance that Heather is secretly alive and concentrating on being a mother until she eventually resumes a super-heroic role.

[cmdrkoenig67]

And my worst fear has come to light. The mailman will be wearing the Guardian suit to learn to control his powers and to "honor" everyone that he killed, by being a hero for Canada. I'm so pissed...............

Well that puts to bed the comment of seeing only one Canadian in the prom art, huh?

Yeah...Pretty much.

Dana

[Phil]

How would a Briton feel if the role of Captain Britain or Union Jack was assumed by an American, or a German?

If the story was well told I wouldn't care in the slightest, tbh.

My point on the whole subject remains a wait and see and possibly vent after.

I take positive from the fact that the title isn't "Alpha Flight" which shows that possibly... possibly something has been learnt from the past two volumes attempts at recreating Byrne's dysfunctional family.
Yes characters I enjoyed reading about and that I feel had much more potential in them are in the land of temporary limbo that is comic's death, but maybe that's better than a volume 4 that's decreasing on substance further than 2&3.

I take solice in that Sas is still alive as he is arguably my favourite character and while this title may not be AF some of the spirit of that team and title can possibly live on through him.

I also trust Mike's writing ability generally and feel that while it may not be the ideal AF story that I'd have liked as an AF fan, it will be a storyline involving Sasquatch (and Talisman) that hopefully respects everything I enjoyed about AF.

I see OF less as a fourth volume or a spin off, but more as AF characters being used in another title, similar to Northstar in X-Men etc, and will be personally judging the story on a similar scale.
If the story is well written and there's no disrespect to AF all in all, I'll be happy.

[cmdrkoenig67]

How would a Briton feel if the role of Captain Britain or Union Jack was assumed by an American, or a German?

If the story was well told I wouldn't care in the slightest, tbh.

My point on the whole subject remains a wait and see and possibly vent after.

I take positive from the fact that the title isn't "Alpha Flight" which shows that possibly... possibly something has been learnt from the past two volumes attempts at recreating Byrne's dysfunctional family.

I don't think Marvel has learned anything from the two failed volumes...In fact, they seem to be making the same mistakes again and again, etc..etc....

Yes characters I enjoyed reading about and that I feel had much more potential in them are in the land of temporary limbo that is comic's death, but maybe that's better than a volume 4 that's decreasing on substance further than 2&3.

Who's to say an actual AF Volume four would be worse...It might even be better than both 2 and 3?

I take solice in that Sas is still alive as he is arguably my favourite character and while this title may not be AF some of the spirit of that team and title can possibly live on through him.

I also trust Mike's writing ability generally and feel that while it may not be the ideal AF story that I'd have liked as an AF fan, it will be a storyline involving Sasquatch (and Talisman) that hopefully respects everything I enjoyed about AF.

I see OF less as a fourth volume or a spin off, but more as AF characters being used in another title, similar to Northstar in X-Men etc, and will be personally judging the story on a similar scale.

"Another title" with a team based in Canada, with a few former-Alphans, defending Canada's people and called "fill-in-the-blank Flight"? Yeah...That's not AF, at all.

If the story is well written and there's no disrespect to AF all in all, I'll be happy.

Putting an American in a clearly Canadian mapleleaf costume is not disrespectful? Uh....Sure.

Dana

[Phil]

I don't think Marvel has learned anything from the two failed volumes...In fact, they seem to be making the same mistakes again and again, etc..etc....

I see clearly starting off as a limited rather than an ongoing that gets ended abruptly a step in the direction

Who's to say an actual AF Volume four would be worse...It might even be better than both 2 and 3?

Not I, that's for sure.
But with the team dead my guess is that they'd just fill it with more newly created Alpha wannabe-esque characters ala Flex and Yukon Jack... which doesn't flow for me.

"Another title" with a team based in Canada, with a few former-Alphans, defending Canada's people and called "fill-in-the-blank Flight"? Yeah...That's not AF, at all.

It's clearly not though.
It's not AF, but it's not advertising itself as such like volumes 2&3... surely that's a good thing?
Would you prefer it if they called themselves Alpha Flight?

Putting an American in a clearly Canadian mapleleaf costume is not disrespectful? Uh....Sure.

I don't consider it disrepectful to the the great series and writing that we've all come to love in the slightest.

I was talking about the actual writing rather than the nationality isisue.

Writing aside the idea of an American wearing a Canadian flag may be disrespectful personally to a Canadian, but I'm not one so can't hope to presume and prejudge.

[Flightpath07]

Elizabeth...Not really an AF member, so OF can have her??!!! How dare you say such a thing...Why you little...I oughta...AAARRGH! I adore Talisman...If OF can't have Sasquatch, they can't have her either!

Ooo...sorry, touched a nerve, did I?


Hey, we all have our opinions on who are our fave AF characters. You are welcome to Eliz 2Yngmen being one of yours. She isn't one of mine. I mean, look at all the trouble that was caused in Volume 1 because of her! Anybody remember Snowbird's baby? Man, that was a horrid mess...

Anyways, I do not hate Eliz. But Sas was there from the very beginning. Talisman was only there sometimes, and often unwilling, and lots of the time she was cold and distant.

If either of these two are recognizable as AF members, I would think Walter would be the one most non-Flight fans could still pick out as a definite Flight member.

And since this is Omega Flight, not Alpha Flight, I stand by what i originally said - if the comic does not find a real and significant way to make this seem much more like Alpha Flight than it currently feels, and does not leave a way for some of our fave heroes to return to service for their country in the future, then I hope it dies hard and fast, never to be heard from again. And I hope that Sasquatch never officially joins the team. He is an Alpha Flight-er, true and true.

[Flightpath07]

Hey!

Here is another good point to consider, people...


In light of all that we now know about Omega Flight, how it ties in to Civil War, who is on the team, what their purpose is, and who is in the Mac-Hudson suit...
...has anybody considered what the real purpose was in killing off Alpha Flight?!?!!

I mean, really, think about this logically. Wouldn't this story have worked just as well if The Collective had killed one or two Alpha Flight members in the attack, and merely put the rest out of commission for quite a while? Really, wouldn't trhe Canadian Govt have freaked out without a superhero team to protect them, and still asked the Americans for help? Wouldn't Sasquatch have still been pissed, and had Mike wear the suit (what a dumb-a$& idea...groan...)?

What is the point in killing Alpha Flight? What is the point?

Pointless, pointless, all is pointless...

[Phil]

What is the point in killing Alpha Flight? What is the point?

Cheap shock tactics using a set of characters with 2 failed volumes in recent years that weren't currently being used to try and make THE COLLECTIVE look an actual threat.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I don't think Marvel has learned anything from the two failed volumes...In fact, they seem to be making the same mistakes again and again, etc..etc....

I see clearly starting off as a limited rather than an ongoing that gets ended abruptly a step in the direction

Who's to say an actual AF Volume four would be worse...It might even be better than both 2 and 3?

Not I, that's for sure.
But with the team dead my guess is that they'd just fill it with more characters ala Flex and Yukon Jack... which doesn't flow for me.

Not necessarilly...They could just as easily revive the team for the next volume. I'd rather they didn't fill it with newbies either.

"Another title" with a team based in Canada, with a few former-Alphans, defending Canada's people and called "fill-in-the-blank Flight"? Yeah...That's not AF, at all.

It's clearly not though.
It's not AF, but it's not advertising itself as such like volumes 2&3... surely that's a good thing?
Would you prefer it if they called themselves Alpha Flight?[/quote]

Oeming did, in a way..."Alpha Flight's last chance" and all that, remember? God forbid they start soliciting it in the same manner that Vol 3 was.

Putting an American in a clearly Canadian mapleleaf costume is not disrespectful? Uh....Sure.

I don't consider it disrepectful to the the great series and writing that we've all come to love in the slightest.

I was talking about the actual writing rather than the nationality isisue.

Writing aside the idea of an American wearing a Canadian flag may be disrespectful personally to a Canadian, but I'm not one so can't hope to presume and prejudge.[/quote]

Phil...In that costume, he's representing a specific country and he isn't even a citizen of said country...That in my eyes, is disrespectful and perhaps even a type of mockery...Implying that anyone, from anywhere can fill the role easily. Gawd!...I'm having visions of Marvel's solicits for AF, Vol 3 again...Ugh!

I'm not Canadian and I can totally see it as being insulting/offensive. I myself am not a hugely patriotic person, but I would be offended if they stuck somebody who wasn't an American citzen in the Captain America uniform.

Dana

[Phil]

Not necessarilly...They could just as easily revive the team for the next volume. I'd rather they didn't fill it with newbies either.

I agree. Hopefully they will.

God forbid they start soliciting it in the same manner that Vol 3 was.

Again, agreed.
As much as Lobdell was guilty for, I do know he didn't write the solicits...

Phil...In that costume, he's representing a specific country and he isn't even a citizen of said country...That in my eyes, is disrespectful and perhaps even a type of mockery...Implying that anyone, from anywhere can fill the role easily.

Then we've got different ways of looking at things.
I'm not saying either one of us is right or wrong.
I just don't agree.

I'm not Canadian and I can totally see it as being insulting/offensive. I myself am not a hugely patriotic person, but I would be offended if they stuck somebody who wasn't an American citzen in the Captain America uniform.

Again, to me they're just fictional stories and as long as there aren't slurs or stereotypes, it wouldn't bother me if an American or anyone else was in the Captain Britian uniform.

Moving over to the real world I personally have more in common with certain American beliefs and ideas and culture. To me areas of America feel more like home than areas of England.
I don't feel that tourists wearing Union Jack or I love London t-shirts are insulting.
I wouldn't feel insulted if an American or a Canadian died fighting as part of an English army to save English soil.
I wouldn't feel insulted if an American soccer player captained an English league soccer team and won them trophies. Hell, I'm used to it.

[Legerd]

Again, to me they're just fictional stories and as long as there aren't slurs or stereotypes, it wouldn't bother me if an American or anyone else was in the Captain Britian uniform.

That's the point, it is considered a slur to have an American wearing the Canadian flag in this case. As a European you may not get the resentment Canadians feel when other nations consider us watered down Americans. It's annoying to know that no matter what things your nation accomplishes, it's always considered a second class version of the US. So when real life writers and editors okay a story that shows an American wearing the uniform (designed after the nation's flag) of a Canadian hero who represented his country, it seems the folks at Marvel think any old American can substitute for a Canadian hero. A real life attitude appearing in a fictional story.
That may not be the intention, but that's how it's coming across.

[Corvus]

Again, to me they're just fictional stories and as long as there aren't slurs or stereotypes, it wouldn't bother me if an American or anyone else was in the Captain Britian uniform.

That's the point, it is considered a slur to have an American wearing the Canadian flag in this case. As a European you may not get the resentment Canadians feel when other nations consider us watered down Americans. It's annoying to know that no matter what things your nation accomplishes, it's always considered a second class version of the US. So when real life writers and editors okay a story that shows an American wearing the uniform (designed after the nation's flag) of a Canadian hero who represented his country, it seems the folks at Marvel think any old American can substitute for a Canadian hero. A real life attitude appearing in a fictional story.
That may not be the intention, but that's how it's coming across.

Exactly.

Phil, try to imagine how a Scot, and a nationalist one, might feel about a "Captain Scotland" character, if there was one, being an English man with no Scottish roots.

Maybe that might illustrate a bit to you why Canadians find an American being put into a Canadian Flag based costume objectional. Canadian's live right next door to a huge power that overshadows our culture much of the time, and one that takes Canada for granted for the most part, being largely ignorant of our value to them. There's a long history of America ignoring Canada's contributions and taking us for granted. The most infamous example would be the aftermath of 9/11. Most air traffic headed for the US was diverted to Canada after the attacks, and Canada took care of thousands of Americans. And thats just one example.

When the American president was thanking the various countries that helped out not long after 9/11, Canada wasn't even mentioned. And thats just one of many examples of Canada being ignored, belittled or taken for granted by America.

As for Pointer, so far, there's no rational ewhy he'd be in the maple leaf design guardian suit. To be honest, I don't understand why the guardian suit still exists. If the battle with the Collective was traumatic enough to kill Mac and the others, the suit should be beyond repair.

If Oeming thought it was a good idea to have Pointer on the team, thats controversial, but I think it might have a lot of potential. However, theres no reason to slap him in Guardian suit.

Its disrespectful, and betrays a serious lack of understanding of Canadian attitudes. And that lack of understanding makes me very dubious of the quality of the upcoming series.

[Captain Primate]

As for Pointer, so far, there's no rational ewhy he'd be in the maple leaf design guardian suit. To be honest, I don't understand why the guardian suit still exists. If the battle with the Collective was traumatic enough to kill Mac and the others, the suit should be beyond repair.

actually, Walter says that Reed Richards built the suit. So, its a new suit. Though, your argument as to why it has a maple leaf on it is still valid.

[Obsidian3d]

While of course comics are not real-life, the stories (the same as any other fictional medium) tend to stem from real life events and attitudes. I tried to explain my distaste for the idea of Mike wearing the Guardian suit a few days ago but Legerd and Corvus explained it far better than I did. Well done guys.

I don't expect everyone to understand, but at least being conscious of it is important. The fact that editorial and management at Marvel don't seem to get it...reflects poorly I think. I am still hoping Mike and Scott have something really great up their sleeves and this will all be moot in a few days, but the global attitudes at large will still be a problem in my eyes. I don't have a suggestion for correcting that other than being vocal about it and trying to make it clear to others.

[Flightpath07]

I don't expect everyone to understand, but at least being conscious of it is important. The fact that editorial and management at Marvel don't seem to get it...reflects poorly I think. I am still hoping Mike and Scott have something really great up their sleeves and this will all be moot in a few days, but the global attitudes at large will still be a problem in my eyes. I don't have a suggestion for correcting that other than being vocal about it and trying to make it clear to others.

Exactly. Well said.

*grumbling under breath* I still do not think there was any reason to off all the AF characters in New Avengers. Thta's just plain mean, vindictive, and spiteful - not to mention lame. I mean, isn't the truth that they want us to beleive that they killed off AF because having Mike Pointer kill a whole superhero tema would show him to be bigtime powerful and stuff? But really, they killed AF cuz they figured nobody would really care or miss them - which seems to me is the same reason guys like Joe Q do not want ot hear from us fans - they don't care about us, or our love for AF.
Hopefully, Mike Oeming and crew do care, and will show us how much, by bringing some of the "dead" back eventually, once this puppy ratchets up into an ongoing title...