Tom Brevoort Against Fight For The Flight

[Ben]

Mr. Tom Brevoort and I have exchanged a few emails, we were able to explain a few things civilly to each other. He explained that much of what he said was tongue in cheek, and I explained a few of my points. We are playing nice with each other, please everyone do the same.

Lets continue to support the title. At this stage I ask that you all please inquire at you local comic shop(s) as to if they are willing to include a flyer with sales of marvel comics leading up to Omega, and if they are willing to display a poster or two (or ten) in their shops. I will have that material available to print off in the next week or so, I'm just waiting to see if Andy Schmidt is able to dig up something for me to use, or if I'll have to use images already released.

My weekly interview series with Oeming featuring a new character each week will be starting soon also.

Ben

[-K-M-]

My weekly interview series with Oeming featuring a new character each week will be starting soon also.

Ben

Like how they revealed members from New Avengers? Oh baby, when does this start Ben?

[Legerd]

Mr. Tom Brevoort and I have exchanged a few emails, we were able to explain a few things civilly to each other. He explained that much of what he said was tongue in cheek, and I explained a few of my points. We are playing nice with each other, please everyone do the same. Ben

Glad to hear things are smoothed out, but I wish the folks at Marvel would take AF (or in this case OF) more seriously. At the same time it would be nice if they took us fans a little more seriously as well. You don't tweak someone's nose after pissing them off.

Lets continue to support the title. At this stage I ask that you all please inquire at you local comic shop(s) as to if they are willing to include a flyer with sales of marvel comics leading up to Omega, and if they are willing to display a poster or two (or ten) in their shops. I will have that material available to print off in the next week or so, I'm just waiting to see if Andy Schmidt is able to dig up something for me to use, or if I'll have to use images already released.Ben

Done and done.

My weekly interview series with Oeming featuring a new character each week will be starting soon also.

Cool! This is what I've been waiting for.

[Flightpath07]

Okay, I came in kinda late on this topic, cuz i started my own thread on this elsewhere, which you can see here...

http://forum.alphaflight.net/viewtopic.php?t=1910

http://forum.alphaflight.net/viewtopic.php?t=1910


Anyhoo, a few responses to get off my proverbial chest...(with no venom, of course!)

Obsidian 3D said,

But, the simple fact is that if you don't respect your customers, eventually you'll lose them. We're simply trying to show Marvel that they have our support for Omega Flight. Bad mouthing us in any way is certainly unprofessional, regardless of who it comes from within the company. The same can be said of us stating our own opinions towards the company and their creators.
We simply want to be treated fairly and with respect, which I think a lot of us feel we haven't gotten lately. I would cite New Avengers #16 as a good example, which was followed by the total lack of explanation of what exactly happened or WHO died in that issue. Rather we got veiled hints and tongue-in-cheek promises about what was coming. That was eventually revealed to be an ONGOING series entitled Omega Flight. And
of course we were all very excited about the news.
Soon thereafter we find out through the solicitation for Omega Flight that it's been downsized to a 5 issue mini series. Financial decisions aside, I for one don't feel that I'm being treated fairly as a fan of Alpha and Omega or as a customer...which will translate into me me buying less Marvel material. Truth is that the only thing I plan on buying for the foreseeable future will be Omega Flight. If that only lasts five issues, well so be it.

It is always about respect, isn't it? Tom's comments lacked that respect. Yet he still expects us to buy the comic?! Well, perhaps he knows us too well, as fans, and knows he can bash us and mash us and anger us, and we will still buy the comic. He's right. But that does not make his comments, or his tone, correct. Shameful is what it was, really.

As for lack of respect in the death of AF...we accepted it, because it was leading to a new monthly series. In the end, that was taken form us, and replaced with what i am sure will be a kick-butt five issue mini-series, however was it really fair to us fans or even necessary to kill off our favourite heroes, disrespectfully, just to launch a mini-series? No disrespect intended to Mr Oeming and crew...but that is just wrong on so many levels!

And I , too, will not be buying any more Marvel titles for the foreseeable future, other than Omega Flight. A company that treats me disrespectfully, does not get my business. Mr Oeming treats us all with respect here, so I will support him and his work - but nothing else that is Marvel. That is not anger talking, that is me fighting back as a consumer with all that I have - my money. And my money will go to a myriad of good independant comic book companies now, rather than to a bunch of Marvel titles. Until such time as Marvel head office makes a turn-around in the way that they treat their customers, Make Mine Somebody Else. And again, that is not anger talking - just common sense, and my own humble opinion.

DelBubs said,

If we're going to be brutally honest here, then I think it's wise to point out that the 'Save the Flight' people and supporters, probably come, in the majority, from here and 'The Alpha Flight Message Boards'. A hardcore of about 150 (if that). We are that fanatical that we constantly buy the product and fight for it's survival, even when presented with the abomination that was Vol 3. To the rest of comicdom we must look pretty pathetic, clamouring for a glimpse of what made AF so special in the first place.
I mean, we even accepted Lobdell here, even after he described AF as '3rd Rate Avengers Wannabee's', because we wanted to see ' the 'Alpha Flight' legend on the cover of a comic. 150/200 people don't make a lot of difference to a company like Marvel. Our sales or lack of won't make a bit of difference. They do know however, that no matter how Mr Breevort portrays us, come April, we'll all be there to pick up x amount of 'Omega Flight #1'.
There use to be a time when hardcore fans where appreciated, now they are a subject of ridicule, fanboys, celler dwellers etc. I can live with that, but still I get bent out of sake over AF. It's just unfortunate that Mr Breevort couldn't realise that there was nothing intended by the 'so called'
venomous e-mails he got (not from 'Save the Flight'), but the need for Flight fans to have something to look forward to each month.
I'll still be there in April to pick up #1. It's just unfortunate that it will be tempered with the realisation that my support of the book is considered such an irritation.

A well thought out thought there. It's true, there are not enough AF fans out there, making noise, to get Marvel at this time to go for an ongoing series. So, should we give up? NO! But we have to accept that the concept needs to change, in order to get new people onboard. That is what they are tryin got do with OF.
Again, a respect issue. Show us respect, as we support you. Listen to us, as we support you both monetarily and by getting behind what you are doing.
Why treat us like dirt? Why? It makes no sense...

Irritation indeed!

SmurfInABlender said,

But Being new to Comics I have been wanting to stop buying old comics (I'm reading Namor and Alpha flight as of late and have read plenty of Graphic novels) and start buying new titles in order to help the comic industry. Here is the thing... after reading that, I feel less connected to Marvel as a whole. Where as I want to read Omega Flight I will look for new titles from other places rather then Marvel.

Well said, Smurf. Less-connected. As is, Marvel seems to be less connecte dot its fans than it used to be. Mr Oeming has no trouble connecting with his fans, so maybe that disconnectedness only is happening in the upper echelons of Marvel, but it is still there in black and white for us to read...We are not wanted by Mr Brevoot. He don't like us. We annoy him. He wants us to go away. He has evolved into a higher being, and puny mortals like us cannot understand his higher ways...blah blah blah. Kinda sickening, ain't it?

Ben said,

Mr. Tom Brevoort and I have exchanged a few emails, we were able to explain a few things civilly to each other. He explained that much of what he said was tongue in cheek, and I explained a few of my points. We are playing nice with each other, please everyone do the same.

Ben,
With all due respect, and respect you I do...I notice you are not, so far, sharing those emails with the rest of us...
I can see that you are trying hard to "play nice" with Mr Brevoot, who somewhat holds our fate in his hands.
I can also guess that you are not sharing the emails, because you know they would not satisfy us. The respect is still not there, is it? And no apology, either?

Sigh...

Yay, Alpha Flight is dead. Yahoo.
Now somebody wants to wipe out us AF-believers. First they crush our dreams, then they crush our ability to dream...

Man...nothing more to say on this topic. Nothing more to say.

Sigh...

[Adam]

First they crush our dreams, then they crush our ability to dream...

While I think Mr. Brevoort's blog post lacked tact and could easily be read as offensive to us die-hards, statements like this freak me out a bit. I think we need to step back and breathe sometimes, because if I was a creator / editor at Marvel I'd be very hesitant about interfacing with fans when such weighty, grandiose statements are being thrown about.

I know we're all emotionally invested in these characters, but in the end of the day it's a comic book, not a human rights issue. Whatever Marvel says or does we've got to keep that in perspective.

[SmurfInABlender]

The real question is when will the interview about guardian come out?!

[Flightpath07]

statements like this freak me out a bit

Simply put, we all want to support OF, in the hope that (a) it is a good comic and enjoyable to collect/read (which it appears that it will be), and (b) that said support might be enough to interest Marvel in an ongoing monthly series.
Mr Brevoort's posting regarding AF/OF fans and their opinions...does this give you any hope that he is interested in listening to us? It seems to me that his opinion is already made up, and only overwhelming sales is going to change that.
Since it has already been stated that we 150-200 fans really cannot change Marvel's mind, we really are not enough in the long run to matter (I know, nobody likes to hear that, but it is still truth), we have to rely on enough people picking up this limited series that creates enough fan interest to change the mind of Marvel and Tom Brevoort. This is the same Tom Brevoort, who by his very comments on his blog on Marvel.com, seems to be rather disinterested in hearing from fans, being bothered by fans, being emailed by fans, and does apparently no research on anything fans do or say.
Say what you will, this is NOT the best of situations.
I am not meaning to be a "downer" here, but I am trying to be a realist. We support OF because it is, in part, AF. And we all love AF, so we want to (and hopefully will) love OF. We do what we do, because of our love for the characters and the setting.
But we have no, or next-to-no pull, with the big companies that run things. Sure, we have good caring people like Mr Oeming, whom mutual affection between us flows - he cares about AF/OF, and about us fans, so of course we support and care for him. We want him to succeed. We want OF to succeed. Most of us will buy OF without any questions asked (I have already placed an online order for two copies of OF Issue 1). Because, as fans, that is what we do.
But our love and support for the characters - does Tom Brevoort care about that? Does he feel for the characters as we do?
Where does this leave us?
I think it leaves us where we already were, really; it leaves us, the fans, eageraly awaiting the new 5 issue mini-series, supporting it as best we know how, mourning for the dearly-departed AF characters, and knowing that come issue number 5 of OF, only a major miracle will see us doing anything after that other than waiting and hoping and organizing, trying desperately to keep the dream alive. Because that is what we do. Because we are fans. It is what we always do.

[Uncle Toxie]

Just read the new New Joe Friday's over at Newsarama, thought you all would be interested to see this:

Q: “Scratchy” - I have an odd question; over at Marvel.com, Tom Brevoort has come out pretty strongly against “Save the Flight”, a campaign to increase the sales of Omega Flight months before it's launch and turn it into an ongoing.

Why be against increasing sales of a Marvel comic??

Were people against increasing the sales of Spider-Girl too, and public about it?

JQ: Scratchy, I’ve seen the blog posting that got some Alpha Flight fans upset and I have to tell you, I found nothing wrong with it and believe that people are reading things into it that aren’t there. First he offered up advice on the best way to send your message and he even gave cautionary tales. In many ways he gave you guys a call to arms and posed a challenge. If anything it should have inspired the Alpha Flight faithful as he laid a pretty clear roadmap for what can be done to have Omega Flight become an ongoing, I mean he sights examples of things that worked and didn’t work. I don’t see what’s wrong with telling people that something they’re doing isn’t the most efficient way to go about it, especially when constructive ideas are presented as an alternative. He’s asking AF fans to focus their energies on what will make a difference. He also mentioned that there were some not so friendly letters from the AF group to which some took exception except that I was shown a smattering of some of these and I completely understand what he was talking abut.

So, it’s very clear to me that Tom, nor anyone here at Marvel, is against any saving AF campaign or any other campaign, he was just suggesting a better way to skin a cat. That to me is a far cry from saying don’t do anything at all because we don’t care.

The answer is quite simple, and this is something that Spider-Girl fans have proven time and time again. When their title is threatened, they go out in force and keep it alive through word of mouth that adds up to selling power! That’s the challenge, nothing more nothing less. And for those who are concerned, YES, YES, YES, trade paperback sales are considered greatly in the equation.

[Mokole]

Well, nice too to see the cover image included with the response. In the coming two weeks I'm anticipating a lot of news and things to discuss, all good I hope.

If the weather is OK I may even pop into a comic shop and offer up what Ben does for advertising OF

[mreeez]

Q: “Scratchy” - I have an odd question; over at Marvel.com, Tom Brevoort has come out pretty strongly against “Save the Flight”, a campaign to increase the sales of Omega Flight months before it's launch and turn it into an ongoing.

Why be against increasing sales of a Marvel comic??

Were people against increasing the sales of Spider-Girl too, and public about it?

JQ: Scratchy, I’ve seen the blog posting that got some Alpha Flight fans upset and I have to tell you, I found nothing wrong with it and believe that people are reading things into it that aren’t there. First he offered up advice on the best way to send your message and he even gave cautionary tales. In many ways he gave you guys a call to arms and posed a challenge. If anything it should have inspired the Alpha Flight faithful as he laid a pretty clear roadmap for what can be done to have Omega Flight become an ongoing, I mean he sights examples of things that worked and didn’t work. I don’t see what’s wrong with telling people that something they’re doing isn’t the most efficient way to go about it, especially when constructive ideas are presented as an alternative. He’s asking AF fans to focus their energies on what will make a difference. He also mentioned that there were some not so friendly letters from the AF group to which some took exception except that I was shown a smattering of some of these and I completely understand what he was talking abut.

So, it’s very clear to me that Tom, nor anyone here at Marvel, is against any saving AF campaign or any other campaign, he was just suggesting a better way to skin a cat. That to me is a far cry from saying don’t do anything at all because we don’t care.

The answer is quite simple, and this is something that Spider-Girl fans have proven time and time again. When their title is threatened, they go out in force and keep it alive through word of mouth that adds up to selling power! That’s the challenge, nothing more nothing less. And for those who are concerned, YES, YES, YES, trade paperback sales are considered greatly in the equation.

Spinspinspin

[Ben]

Well, nice too to see the cover image included with the response. In the coming two weeks I'm anticipating a lot of news and things to discuss, all good I hope.

If the weather is OK I may even pop into a comic shop and offer up what Ben does for advertising OF

Yes, it's at the point now where the infrastructure is in place, and it's time for fans to start mobilizing once I get the promotional material done. Andy said he's be getting back to me early in the week with anything he can offer up, but in his words:
"Most of the art I have is spoken for, so I'll see if there's anything
else I can give to you."

Otherwise, we've gotten enough material that I can certainly put something good together. I've got a couple other things in the works that I'm not able to discuss at this point, but if they come to fruition, I'll fill you all in. I've made certain changes to the email form, it now gets queued for my approval, and I can edit out anything inappropriate before having it delivered to Marvel. In discussions I had with Quesada, he quoted some pieces of emails that when you put it all in a pile could be considered rude, though from a fan's perspective it appears more frustrated, but I can understand how they could be seen that way.

So but the end of the week I'll have promotional stuff one way or an other, and we can mobilize on our comic shops.

Ben

[Adam]

statements like this freak me out a bit

I am not meaning to be a "downer" here, but I am trying to be a realist. We support OF because it is, in part, AF. And we all love AF, so we want to (and hopefully will) love OF. We do what we do, because of our love for the characters and the setting.

I wasn't referring to your assessment of the situation Flightpath, I was merely warning against voicing overly dramatic responses to these setbacks (the "crush our ability to dream" thing) . The Tom incident has brought that out in some of us. Your response now was levelheaded, so don't think this is directed at you...

...but what I was getting at was this:

I deal with artists and "celebrity" types all the time, mainly in the music industry but I think it applies here. It's very easy as an audience member to take the actions and statements of these individuals overly personal. Since good art should connect on an emotional level it's not surprising that it often gets an emotional response. If you're trying to really get a good dialogue going with one of these folks the worst thing you can do is turn their actions around at them in an overly sentimental or emotional way. That's a fan perspective, but it's not their perspective and it's not how they communicate in their day-to-day lives.

Sticking with music as an example, let's say a band really connects with someone, but 5 years later does something that deeply offends that fan. It happens all the time (IE: a once proudly independent band signs with a major label). The worst way to approach that is to get angry and throw it in the band's face. If you're conducting an interview, the worst thing to do is get emotional about it, because that only sets up the expectation that you can't be reasoned with. Chances are, in those 5 years the band has lived and changed like all people do. There's a good story behind it that only very reasonable, respectful discussion will bring about. If you want to get that you have to stop acting like a fan and take a cool head. Give the benefit of the doubt.

It applies here too. If Tom B (or Oeming or Quesada or anyone else) does something that we're offended by, I see no value in proclaiming the "death of a dream" or demanding some theatrical public apology. Stepping back, calming down, and approaching the person like a reasonable individual is what's going to get a reasonable response.

[Guardian]

The real question is when will the interview about guardian come out?!

exactly!

[SephirothsKiller]

Ben,
With all due respect, and respect you I do...I notice you are not, so far, sharing those emails with the rest of us...

Well, generally one doesn't release the contents of a private correspondence... Regardless of one party's wishes it just isn't done because its rude to the other party involved in the correspondence, so unless both parties were like "Lets show everybody our emails!" (quick! Get the kids out of the room!) it would be a serious breach of etiquette/trust to do so.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I agree, there is no need for us to see the emails between Ben and Mr Brevoort.

Flightpath...You're quote...

It is always about respect, isn't it? Tom's comments lacked that respect. Yet he still expects us to buy the comic?! Well, perhaps he knows us too well, as fans, and knows he can bash us and mash us and anger us, and we will still buy the comic. He's right. But that does not make his comments, or his tone, correct. Shameful is what it was, really.

That's a bit of a generalization....Comics lose fans all the time, especially when a company is not giving those fans what they want. I've seen posters on other boards, who've lost interest in buying certain books (whether it be for DC or Marvel), even though they've been long-time buyers of those books. DC nearly lost me with the last Doom Patrol series (by John Byrne)...A series that rebooted the original Doom Patrol, however...It lacked the spirit/soul of what made the original DP great. In fact, it was (in my opinion and many other DP fans' opinions) not very good (not unlike the last series of Alpha).

Dana