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Official Handbook Updates - Page 4
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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by kozzi24
    How's this for a quick fix to Puck's inconsistencies between V2 appearances and other appearances before and after:

    During the entirety of V2, Puck was pretty much brainwashed. That brainwashing may have included his perceptions of his powers. He was knowcked around easily during V2 because of the brainwashing. With that effect removed and his mind restored, he has "resumed" his compressed rubber abilities, as seen when smacked by Juggernaut.
    The problem with that is that Puck was first seen being knocked out by a normal human agent of Department H BEFORE any brainwashing took place.

    A better case might be that excessive and repeated usage of alcohol can affect his body chemistry, and reduce his durabilty for long periods of time (months, based on Vol.2) until it completely leaves his body tissues. After all, he started Vol.2 coming off a lengthy bender...

  2. #47
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    The problem with that Loki is that he doesn't have something in his tissue making him durable, he is a full sized man basically compacted into a very small body, his cells are just closer together making him more durable. That's not something that booze could take away.

    I understand the need to explain inconsistencies in the handbooks, but I don't see how this could be the case.

    Ben

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben
    The problem with that Loki is that he doesn't have something in his tissue making him durable, he is a full sized man basically compacted into a very small body, his cells are just closer together making him more durable. That's not something that booze could take away.

    I understand the need to explain inconsistencies in the handbooks, but I don't see how this could be the case.

    Ben
    The Handbooks don't need to explain why he was demonstrably less durable as of Volume 2. I was simply offering a different option to provide a possible way of explaining why he might be less durable for a time, but allow him to start regaining it. Brainwashing can't be the option, because the brainwashing in question started after he was shown to be less durable. Alcohol was simply suggested as (1) it affects the body physically, and (2) it would also be simple for Puck to reverse - he doesn't even need to become tee-total, just not to go on lenghty and prolonged binges. At the end of the day, the explanation for his powers, like most of those in the superhero field, make no real world sense; our bodies are, in a very real sense, made up of what we ingest, so suggesting something he has eaten or drunk might affect his durability isn't anymore outlandish than suggesting that compacting a human body would make it tougher.

    At the end of the day, suggested explanations of how or why aside, Puck's durability dropped by the start of Volume 2. It seems to have gone back up somewhat (the punch from Juggernaut), though not necessarily to its previous levels.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Sorry for the slow response - deadlines.
    Oh no worries, perfectly fine. I appreicate the time you do take to reply back to us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Agreed, both that you can't just erase the continuity and that Razer wasn't the most inspired addition to Puck's backstory. It would have been nice when writing the profile to ignore it, but that wasn't an option. Trouble is, Seagle didn't actively erase Razer (as far as I recall), he just never brought it up. While he may have said in interviews that as far as he was concerned it never happened (from what you have told me), he didn't actively contradict it, he just didn't mention it - which is perfectly allowable.
    Yeah he mentioned he wanted to ignore it completly, and in the X-Men Encylopedia they actually ignored and didn't explain the Master's connection of how he became a dwarf again and nothing about the compressed rubber even gave him peak human durability in the stats. They made it seem it natuarally happened to him that he became a dwarf again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    We can take it either as an error, or if shown often enough, assume his shield's not as reliable as he'd like it to be (e.g. it's not always on). The Handbooks can't normally ignore evidence, we have to try and explain it. Odd occasions, we can put down to characters having off-days or writer error, repeated instances we suggest reasons for.
    The shields are always come on automatic if he is flying and that's when Wolverine back-handed him. He's shrugged off blows from Wendigo, Wonderman Colossus and even an atomic blast with Vindicator III ..but Wolverine? goes back to jobbing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Now that's a valid point. Puck was repeatedly show with a lower durability during volume 2, suggesting a power drop for some reason. Taking a blow from Juggernaut in itself doesn't prove enhanced durability (various heroes in the X-Men who lack durability have taken blows), but does suggest the power level going back up somewhat (from Volume 2 when a normal human hitting him hard on the head KOed him). On it's own though, it might not prove a level higher than enhanced, because as I said before, enhanced covers a fairly wide range.
    Well it was from a pissed off Juggernaut and to the back of the head, most of the time Jugz is just annoyed not pissed and doesn't have a goal such as protecting Sammy the Fishboy. Man Alpha Flight was written horrible in that issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Jobbing happens on occasion, and can be written off as one hero having a good day while another has a bad day. However, as I've said, the problem with Puck was that Volume 2 showed a consistent reduction in durability level.
    Actually happens to Alpha Flight more times than not considering their power. Such as Sasquatch and Sabertooth, which uhhhh...badly written and also went against what was stated you can't kill a Wendigo. Mauvais did it, because he cut of the Gods of the Artic's connection to the real world, even nearly killed Snowbird doing it. I also noticed his bio in the Wolverine handbook doesn't quite matchup to what is said in the comic, I assume they were limited on space so they couldn't eleborate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    I don't want to get into an arguement over the examples you provided. I do actually agree with you that Puck's level was that much higher back then; I just wanted to point out that those specific examples aren't automatically as clear cut as they might be, and that regardless, later evidence shows a reduction in durability level. And enhanced doesn't mean "just a little over normal human durability"; like the strength levels, its a range.
    I understand, but I don't see how logically his durability would just suddenly decrease for no-apparent reason.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Mungi
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Agreed, both that you can't just erase the continuity and that Razer wasn't the most inspired addition to Puck's backstory. It would have been nice when writing the profile to ignore it, but that wasn't an option. Trouble is, Seagle didn't actively erase Razer (as far as I recall), he just never brought it up. While he may have said in interviews that as far as he was concerned it never happened (from what you have told me), he didn't actively contradict it, he just didn't mention it - which is perfectly allowable.
    Yeah he mentioned he wanted to ignore it completly, and in the X-Men Encylopedia they actually ignored and didn't explain the Master's connection of how he became a dwarf again and nothing about the compressed rubber even gave him peak human durability in the stats. They made it seem it natuarally happened to him that he became a dwarf again.
    The X-Men Encyclopedia was written before most of the current Handbook team got involved, and it's definitely a much rougher reference guide than subsequent efforts (compare it with the Spider-Man Encyclopedia, which was where the writing team started to take shape). I'd agree that the stats are definitely off, and the history is much less in-depth, glossing over a lot of Puck's later history. To be fair, Eric, who wrote that Encyclopedia, had very little time to compile all the bios and no one else to either split the workload with or to check for errors creeping in; as such, I think he did a pretty decent job overall, but it's certainly not as polished or accurate as our later work.

    Quote Originally Posted by King Mungi
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    We can take it either as an error, or if shown often enough, assume his shield's not as reliable as he'd like it to be (e.g. it's not always on). The Handbooks can't normally ignore evidence, we have to try and explain it. Odd occasions, we can put down to characters having off-days or writer error, repeated instances we suggest reasons for.
    The shields are always come on automatic if he is flying and that's when Wolverine back-handed him. He's shrugged off blows from Wendigo, Wonderman Colossus and even an atomic blast with Vindicator III ..but Wolverine? goes back to jobbing.
    It does sound that way, although as always I'd prefer to double check the exact circumstances before saying so definitively.

    Quote Originally Posted by King Mungi
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Now that's a valid point. Puck was repeatedly show with a lower durability during volume 2, suggesting a power drop for some reason. Taking a blow from Juggernaut in itself doesn't prove enhanced durability (various heroes in the X-Men who lack durability have taken blows), but does suggest the power level going back up somewhat (from Volume 2 when a normal human hitting him hard on the head KOed him). On it's own though, it might not prove a level higher than enhanced, because as I said before, enhanced covers a fairly wide range.
    Well it was from a pissed off Juggernaut and to the back of the head, most of the time Jugz is just annoyed not pissed and doesn't have a goal such as protecting Sammy the Fishboy. Man Alpha Flight was written horrible in that issue.
    Even while that angry, this was the slightly-less-powerful-than-he-used-to-be Juggernaut, who was arguably holding back at least a little so that he didn't kill anyone. However, as I said, I would still take it as evidence that Puck either retains a good portion of his previous durability, or had begun to recover it.

    Quote Originally Posted by King Mungi
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Jobbing happens on occasion, and can be written off as one hero having a good day while another has a bad day. However, as I've said, the problem with Puck was that Volume 2 showed a consistent reduction in durability level.
    Actually happens to Alpha Flight more times than not considering their power.
    Probably because they've been mostly guest stars in recent years. Home-team advantage, and even if they are helping out the star of another book, it's not the done thing for the guest star to win out the day when the star can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by King Mungi
    Such as Sasquatch and Sabertooth, which uhhhh...badly written and also went against what was stated you can't kill a Wendigo.
    Haven't researched that, but it depends who stated it and where. Plus, as you outline below, specific circumstances can provide cases where such definitive statements prove not to be entirely accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by King Mungi
    Mauvais did it, because he cut of the Gods of the Artic's connection to the real world, even nearly killed Snowbird doing it. I also noticed his bio in the Wolverine handbook doesn't quite matchup to what is said in the comic, I assume they were limited on space so they couldn't eleborate.
    Not knowing the exact circumstances (I'd have to dig out both the issues and the relevant Handbook to compare), I can't say for sure, but space restrictions do impact on how much we can explain certain things a lot of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by King Mungi
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    I don't want to get into an arguement over the examples you provided. I do actually agree with you that Puck's level was that much higher back then; I just wanted to point out that those specific examples aren't automatically as clear cut as they might be, and that regardless, later evidence shows a reduction in durability level. And enhanced doesn't mean "just a little over normal human durability"; like the strength levels, its a range.
    I understand, but I don't see how logically his durability would just suddenly decrease for no-apparent reason.
    Presumably there is a reason (in story I mean; we already know the real world reason), just one we aren't privy to. I could try to "no-prize" it, as I did with the alcohol suggestion or kozzi24 did with the brainwashing suggestion, though neither is a perfect fit, but the truth is that we don't yet know why.

  6. #51
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    V2's run seems to indicate that the events throughout had been planned by Dept H for a while, so couldn't Puck (and Heather) have had some distant conditioning prior to the actual brainwashing? Something akin to Headlok or someone weakening their mental will prior to their capture?

    I do like your alcoholism suggestion, Stuart, it does work, and can actually be consistent with distant pre-brainwashing conditioning. As Puck's will weakened due to mental manipulation, he started on his bender, to the result that he was weakened by the human attack at the beginning of Volume 2.

    And just a point on what I interpret to be Marvel policy...maybe you should be able to outright allow some explanations, such as the Puck power wane that does now seem temporary. Yes, I understand that some future writer may come up with a story independently that may contraddict what was simply explained away in a handbook. But isn't the goal with older characters to make them user-friendly, specifically to get rid of as much baggage as possible to make them accessible to new readers? I'd think getting the explanations away and saying, "this is his power level now" kind of clears the table for future use.
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    The X-Men Encyclopedia was written before most of the current Handbook team got involved, and it's definitely a much rougher reference guide than subsequent efforts (compare it with the Spider-Man Encyclopedia, which was where the writing team started to take shape). I'd agree that the stats are definitely off, and the history is much less in-depth, glossing over a lot of Puck's later history. To be fair, Eric, who wrote that Encyclopedia, had very little time to compile all the bios and no one else to either split the workload with or to check for errors creeping in; as such, I think he did a pretty decent job overall, but it's certainly not as polished or accurate as our later work.
    I understand, but that's a huge peice of history that was missed out on. Other than that the bio was fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Even while that angry, this was the slightly-less-powerful-than-he-used-to-be Juggernaut, who was arguably holding back at least a little so that he didn't kill anyone. However, as I said, I would still take it as evidence that Puck either retains a good portion of his previous durability, or had begun to recover it.
    As per the handbooks class 100 even in his current state. Yeah that's how I feel too

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Probably because they've been mostly guest stars in recent years. Home-team advantage, and even if they are helping out the star of another book, it's not the done thing for the guest star to win out the day when the star can't.
    Indeed, but as guest stars they make their personalities vastly different, and powers vastly inferior to where ever they appear in. Since they may job in a mainstream comic other writers tend to follow their guest apperance ignoring continuity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Haven't researched that, but it depends who stated it and where. Plus, as you outline below, specific circumstances can provide cases where such definitive statements prove not to be entirely accurate.
    Well basically every single apperances, from Wolverine, Marvel Preview, Blaze, etc. stated the host can't be killed. Even when Werewolf of the Night went to confront Wendigo as once a year or some jazz like that he becomes human again. Both he and werewolf of the night said he was immortal. Also wooden spikes impaling Sasquatch from the Sabertooth mini?

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Not knowing the exact circumstances (I'd have to dig out both the issues and the relevant Handbook to compare), I can't say for sure, but space restrictions do impact on how much we can explain certain things a lot of the time.
    Contradicted to what was said in the actual comic and left out important information that was key. I didn't think much of it as I just assumed space was a key factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Presumably there is a reason (in story I mean; we already know the real world reason), just one we aren't privy to. I could try to "no-prize" it, as I did with the alcohol suggestion or kozzi24 did with the brainwashing suggestion, though neither is a perfect fit, but the truth is that we don't yet know why.
    Alcohol or brain washing won't completly disrupt or alter a person who was molecular compacted. Plus with his metahuman durability he was immune to toxins and poisons so the "problems" with alcohol but all accounts should not have done anything.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by kozzi24
    As Puck's will weakened due to mental manipulation, he started on his bender, to the result that he was weakened by the human attack at the beginning of Volume 2.
    Alpha Flight #1 vol.2, had massive contuinity errors right from the first page. Such as the fight with Wolverine and Mac. When Mac created the most updated Guardian suit Wolverine was no longer feral. So why is Wolverine in his X-Men suit and Guardian in his current Guardian suit? This contradicts what is shown and said in "Alpha Flight Special: First Flight and "Alpha Flight: In the Beginning" as Wolverine was perfectly fine non-feral even led First Flight and also helped saved Orloo from Chinnok. Also during both those comics, Guardian only had the Groundhog armor not his Guardian suit. So vol.2 #1 had major contunity errors. I took it as simply brain washing implant, but then the handbooks added it in.

    As you can see I'm a contunity nut, and then there's the fact why would Wolverine's claws even penetrate Mac's shields...but I'll leave that for another time.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Mungi
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Haven't researched that, but it depends who stated it and where. Plus, as you outline below, specific circumstances can provide cases where such definitive statements prove not to be entirely accurate.
    Well basically every single apperances, from Wolverine, Marvel Preview, Blaze, etc. stated the host can't be killed. Even when Werewolf of the Night went to confront Wendigo as once a year or some jazz like that he becomes human again. Both he and werewolf of the night said he was immortal. Also wooden spikes impaling Sasquatch from the Sabertooth mini?
    On the Wendigo, I'm fairly sure he can be killed (it takes a lot to bring him down, but he's been beaten often enough). The problem is that slaying him simply stops him until someone else commits cannibalism, and then he's back.

    Quote Originally Posted by King Mungi
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Not knowing the exact circumstances (I'd have to dig out both the issues and the relevant Handbook to compare), I can't say for sure, but space restrictions do impact on how much we can explain certain things a lot of the time.
    Contradicted to what was said in the actual comic and left out important information that was key. I didn't think much of it as I just assumed space was a key factor.
    If it contradicts what happened in the comic, then unless there's a specific reason for doing so (e.g. the entry is trying to clear up conflicting accounts of an event), it is likely to be errata. Remind me of the specific thing you think is contradictory, and I'll check the issues vs. the Handbook account.

    Quote Originally Posted by King Mungi
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Presumably there is a reason (in story I mean; we already know the real world reason), just one we aren't privy to. I could try to "no-prize" it, as I did with the alcohol suggestion or kozzi24 did with the brainwashing suggestion, though neither is a perfect fit, but the truth is that we don't yet know why.
    Alcohol or brain washing won't completly disrupt or alter a person who was molecular compacted. Plus with his metahuman durability he was immune to toxins and poisons so the "problems" with alcohol but all accounts should not have done anything.
    Point taken - as I said, neither suggestion was perfect. Regardless of why, something happened to reduce his power levels between series (possibly even before the end of Volume 1).

  10. #55
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    Marvel Magic Handbook comes out this May and Talisman graces the cover, here's the link..

    http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/M...itiations.html

    MM :P

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by maniac mike
    Marvel Magic Handbook comes out this May and Talisman graces the cover, here's the link..

    http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/M...itiations.html

    MM :P
    Nice, but who is Captain Rooster beside her? Hell, who are most of those people?!

    You are a stupid seal with a small rooster. Translate that into french and you'll get it.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    On the Wendigo, I'm fairly sure he can be killed (it takes a lot to bring him down, but he's been beaten often enough). The problem is that slaying him simply stops him until someone else commits cannibalism, and then he's back.
    Well they actually said when the Wenidgo possesses the human host becomes immortal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    f it contradicts what happened in the comic, then unless there's a specific reason for doing so (e.g. the entry is trying to clear up conflicting accounts of an event), it is likely to be errata. Remind me of the specific thing you think is contradictory, and I'll check the issues vs. the Handbook account.
    I just reread it, and it was alright. They just left out some key points, but I remembered some points wrong. Only thing I saw wrong is they they said Mauvais was weakened so the Gods of the Arctic beat him, but he wasn't he was actually at full power as all the magic from the column went back into him.

    Also are there any more AF related characters appearing in the Marvel Universe: Updates?

    Quote Originally Posted by maniac mike
    Marvel Magic Handbook comes out this May and Talisman graces the cover, here's the link..

    http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/M...itiations.html

    MM :P
    Woot that's awesome, she's in her old costume to boot. Actually shocked Dr.Strange didn't appear on the cover

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legerd
    Quote Originally Posted by maniac mike
    Marvel Magic Handbook comes out this May and Talisman graces the cover, here's the link..

    http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/M...itiations.html

    MM :P
    Nice, but who is Captain Rooster beside her? Hell, who are most of those people?!
    "Captain Rooster" is actually the Black Talon, of the rest, I know of only these characters on the cover, Technomage, Talisman, Black Crow, Agatha Harkness, Dredmund Druid, Dreamweaver, Modred & Rintrah.

    MM

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Mungi
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    On the Wendigo, I'm fairly sure he can be killed (it takes a lot to bring him down, but he's been beaten often enough). The problem is that slaying him simply stops him until someone else commits cannibalism, and then he's back.
    Well they actually said when the Wenidgo possesses the human host becomes immortal.
    First, it depends on the reliability of the source - are they an authority, or are they speaking about the legend? If a regular human says the Wendigo is immortal, that might be because that until it took on someone superhuman, no one was ever able to defeat it, and so its built up a myth of being indestructible.

    Second, it depends what they mean by immortal (if that's the exact word). Hercules is immortal, but he can be killed - just not by old age or natural causes.

    Quote Originally Posted by King Mungi
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    f it contradicts what happened in the comic, then unless there's a specific reason for doing so (e.g. the entry is trying to clear up conflicting accounts of an event), it is likely to be errata. Remind me of the specific thing you think is contradictory, and I'll check the issues vs. the Handbook account.
    I just reread it, and it was alright. They just left out some key points, but I remembered some points wrong. Only thing I saw wrong is they they said Mauvais was weakened so the Gods of the Arctic beat him, but he wasn't he was actually at full power as all the magic from the column went back into him.
    I'll still double check that, because if it's errata, it should be listed as such.

    Quote Originally Posted by King Mungi
    Also are there any more AF related characters appearing in the Marvel Universe: Updates?

    Quote Originally Posted by maniac mike
    Marvel Magic Handbook comes out this May and Talisman graces the cover, here's the link..

    http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/M...itiations.html

    MM :P
    Woot that's awesome, she's in her old costume to boot.
    Well, as you can see, there's Talisman (which I handed in a week or so back). I'm fairly sure there are other Alphans pencilled in for the rest of the year.

    Quote Originally Posted by King Mungi
    Actually shocked Dr.Strange didn't appear on the cover
    We try to avoid covering people already recently covered as much as we can, unless they have a major update to be added. Strange was in the Marvel Knights handbook, with quite a lengthy entry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    First, it depends on the reliability of the source - are they an authority, or are they speaking about the legend? If a regular human says the Wendigo is immortal, that might be because that until it took on someone superhuman, no one was ever able to defeat it, and so its built up a myth of being indestructible.

    Second, it depends what they mean by immortal (if that's the exact word). Hercules is immortal, but he can be killed - just not by old age or natural causes.
    *shrugs* They just said immortal, such as Shaman said the host was immortal, even Wolverine in his first apperance said he was immortal and an attack that should have killed him Wendigo quickly rose again as the same human host. Then in Marvel Preview when the Wendigo host was transformed back into a human, while Werewolf of the Night watched on he (the host) commented that he was immortal not just the spirit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Well, as you can see, there's Talisman (which I handed in a week or so back). I'm fairly sure there are other Alphans pencilled in for the rest of the year.
    Oh Excellent you did her entry, anything interesting you can reveal for us?

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