Official Handbook Updates

[Loki]

Oh suprized no one talked about this earlier, but the Puck entry was AWESOME. Very detailed and covered more things I thought it would. I believe you had a part in it Loki?

I wrote it. Thanks for the kind words.

Just a few corrections: Puck admited he named himself after a hockey Puck, it was Puck II who named herself after the Shakespeare character. Would make sense if it was Eugene since he often reads it, but vol.3 stated it.

How can he have superhuman speed listed above and then on the stats say normal?

Also just enhanced durability? Puck has shown to be bulletproof, as well as walk through fire unharmed and fall heights larger than the CN tower and be fine. He was said to be invulnerable and nearly indestructable.

I'll get back to you on all these, as I am not at home and so don't have the issues at hand. It's been a few months since I wrote the entry, and before I either agree or debate the points (with one exception below), I feel I should actually double check the issues to make sure of my facts.

The one bit I can explain now is the speed. Since his transformation circa Alpha Flight #90ish, Puck is faster than normal humans - however, while we are talking heightened reflexes and a degree of superhuman speed, its not like he can challenge Speed Demon to a race. The Power Grids, bless 'em, are unable to cope with fine distinctions. Puck doesn't rate a 3 on the grid, because that suggests being able to move around 700 mph (and apart from people who would have said I was wrong if I'd listed him as a 3, there would also be the risk that a future writer might read that entry and the next thing you know, we'd have Puck zooming around like a demented rocket). Puck strictly rates a bit higher than a 2 speed, but since he is so low down below what 3 is rated as, that 2 was the closest I could get to his correct rating (we can't do 2.1 or 2.2 on the grid).

[Phil]

The Puck entry also appears to have clarified the position on the timeline of the X-Men Unlimited issue, where we worked it out to be; between volumes 1 & 2.

[-K-M-]

I wrote it. Thanks for the kind words.

It was very good, well written, very diverse and fixed up some continuity issues as Phil just explained. I greatly enjoyed this entry, did Puck justice.

The one bit I can explain now is the speed. Since his transformation circa Alpha Flight #90ish, Puck is faster than normal humans - however, while we are talking heightened reflexes and a degree of superhuman speed, its not like he can challenge Speed Demon to a race. The Power Grids, bless 'em, are unable to cope with fine distinctions. Puck doesn't rate a 3 on the grid, because that suggests being able to move around 700 mph (and apart from people who would have said I was wrong if I'd listed him as a 3, there would also be the risk that a future writer might read that entry and the next thing you know, we'd have Puck zooming around like a demented rocket). Puck strictly rates a bit higher than a 2 speed, but since he is so low down below what 3 is rated as, that 2 was the closest I could get to his correct rating (we can't do 2.1 or 2.2 on the grid).

That makes perfect sense, the old Marvel Universe handbooks listed him at 111-115 miles per hour. However, I definetly see where you were coming from.

Thanks for the clarification

[Loki]

I wrote it. Thanks for the kind words.

It was very good, well written, very diverse and fixed up some continuity issues as Phil just explained. I greatly enjoyed this entry, did Puck justice.

Again, thanks. I like Puck, he's an interesting character, and piecing together a coherent history from him based on the various snippets of information he's dropped over the years wasn't work, it was fun.

The one bit I can explain now is the speed. Since his transformation circa Alpha Flight #90ish, Puck is faster than normal humans - however, while we are talking heightened reflexes and a degree of superhuman speed, its not like he can challenge Speed Demon to a race. The Power Grids, bless 'em, are unable to cope with fine distinctions. Puck doesn't rate a 3 on the grid, because that suggests being able to move around 700 mph (and apart from people who would have said I was wrong if I'd listed him as a 3, there would also be the risk that a future writer might read that entry and the next thing you know, we'd have Puck zooming around like a demented rocket). Puck strictly rates a bit higher than a 2 speed, but since he is so low down below what 3 is rated as, that 2 was the closest I could get to his correct rating (we can't do 2.1 or 2.2 on the grid).

That makes perfect sense, the old Marvel Universe handbooks listed him at 111-115 miles per hour. However, I definetly see where you were coming from.

Thanks for the clarification

No problem. I should point out that the Master Edition, which is the Handbook you've mentioned, didn't strictly say he could move at 111-115 mph. What it said was that he was in the speed bracket whose top speed was that (and above the speed bracket whose top speed was 65mph). So again we have a range, though a tighter one than the current grids give us. From what we've seen in the comics, I wouldn't place him at the 115 mph end the scale.

Anyway, now gone back and rechecked the issues of Alpha Flight to respond to your other comments. Proviso here, I haven't re-read all his guest appearances, as they are scattered all through my collection, so if you have a counter-example from there, feel free to bring it up. I freely admit there is always the chance I can miss something.

Just a few corrections: Puck admited he named himself after a hockey Puck, it was Puck II who named herself after the Shakespeare character. Would make sense if it was Eugene since he often reads it, but vol.3 stated it.

Actually, strictly speaking, it was the Plodex copy of him. Would that copy have a reason to lie over such a minor thing? No, I can't think of one. Could he get it wrong? Yes, in theory. Ever seen the original Star Trek "What are little girls made of?". Someone copies Kirk, but he has enough will power to place a clue, a response which is atypical of the real Kirk and will alert others to this being a fake.

Earlier Handbooks confirmed what I think John Byrne explained in interviews but never got round to saying in the actual pages of the comics, which is that Puck chose his name after the character in Shakespeare's play. Normally a statement in the pages of the comic would overrule the Handbook (and the original creator's intentions), but it's coming from a potentially unreliable source. I'll admit, when I was writing Puck, I missed that, because I wasn't paying attention to what the ersatz Puck said (I had a couple hundred issues to go through for Puck, and by the end I wasn't paying as tight attention to those around him, because the profile was about Puck, not them).

So, we've got definitive statement in earlier Handbooks based on creator's intentions contradicted by definitive statement from an unreliable source. I'm not going to just dismiss the evidence which suggests I got it wrong, because that would be biased of me, ignoring the bits which don't support "my side" of the debate. But equally, if Alpha Flight vol.1 had confirmed the Shakespeare connection, no one would argue that vol.3 simply got it wrong, and Handbooks are also canonical sources (Gruenwald used them to add in backstory the comics provided by the writers that the regular titles hadn't had space to include, and in that respect they are the same as if the writer had introduced the info in a text story). Plus, it didn't come from the real Puck which does allow for a level of doubt. So what we have here is two conflicting canonical sources. In hindsight, if I had noticed the ersatz Puck's comment, I would simply have left out the comment about where Puck got his name, because rather than confirming the origin of his codename, Plodex Puck's statement has left introduced a level of doubt. We are no longer sure which version is accurate.

Also just enhanced durability? Puck has shown to be bulletproof, as well as walk through fire unharmed and fall heights larger than the CN tower and be fine. He was said to be invulnerable and nearly indestructable.

Okay, part of this is the type of power grid we now use, and part of it is that it seems Puck's power levels have faded since he intially got shrunk back into a dwarf.

On the former, the Master Edition grids had different levels, and they don't always equate. We've had people look at Punisher having a fighting skills level of 7 while Iron Fist has a level of 6, and concluding that we are claiming Punisher could take Iron Fist in hand-to-hand combat, missing the point that the fighting skills grid becomes non-linear at the top end (e.g. 6 is not always less than 7). 6 means expert in many types of combat, 7 means expert in all. Iron Fist (the current one, rather than his recently introduced predecessor) isn't skilled with guns, for example, so he can't be a 7; Punisher is a jack-of-all-trades, expert in pretty much everything, so he gets a 7 - but there are different levels of expertise, and if he entered a fair hand-to-hand, no dirty tactics or weapons, fight with Iron Fist, the Fist would hand him his head (of course, the Punisher wouldn't fight fair, or without weapons if he can help it). Its the difference between being a Black Belt and being a fifth dan Black Belt; both are experts, one's more of an expert than the other.

In the same way, the durability grid isn't as defined as it used to be. Someone with 3, enhanced durability can be much tougher and harder to hurt than Wolverine, who was 4 (regenerative) on the scale; its the healing that gives you the 4. "Enhanced" covers a potentially huge range, and covers anything up to the point where bullets and other penetrative attacks can't penetrate.

On the latter, power fading. Can you provide me examples of where he was bulletproof (where did bullets bounce off him), the fire and the fall? As I said, I could have missed those, but re-reading, I didn't spot any of them in Alpha Flight. Shortly after his becoming a dwarf again he is seen venturing near flames alongside Diamond Lil, and he does take blasts from an alien spaceship around #100, but we don't really know just how powerful those blasts are. We are told he is incredibly tough, but there's surprisingly little evidence to back it up. However, subsequent to this (e.g. as soon as writers other than the one who gave Puck the enhanced powers), we get little indication of Puck having such durability. In fact, during the second Alpha Flight run, he gets blasted unconscious time and again - and notably he gets knocked out by a punch from a non-superpowered Department H agent in Alpha Flight II #1. His durability seems to have lessened, perhaps dropping closer to human levels over time.

Is this something I like, that a writer seems to have forgotten the level he used to be at? Not really. But equally I can't ignore it, because there's regular evidence of this lower power level. It's exactly the same as the Union Jack entry I wrote for A-Z #12. Joey Chapman is empowered by the Green Knight with the Pendragon spirit, and used to be around the 90 ton range, but now, despite writers mentioning he still has the Pendragon power, we see that Master Man can shrug off Joey's punches but not those of Captain America. Hence, I can include what Joey's power level used to be, hoping another writer might use that, but have to conclude that he has powered down somewhat at the moment. Puck is still tougher than your average person by a fair way, but no longer as tough as he was depicted in the first ten or so issues after he became a dwarf again.

[-K-M-]

Again, thanks. I like Puck, he's an interesting character, and piecing together a coherent history from him based on the various snippets of information he's dropped over the years wasn't work, it was fun.

Yeah it was great, what other etries have you done for the handbooks?

No problem. I should point out that the Master Edition, which is the Handbook you've mentioned, didn't strictly say he could move at 111-115 mph. What it said was that he was in the speed bracket whose top speed was that (and above the speed bracket whose top speed was 65mph). So again we have a range, though a tighter one than the current grids give us. From what we've seen in the comics, I wouldn't place him at the 115 mph end the scale.

Anyway, now gone back and rechecked the issues of Alpha Flight to respond to your other comments. Proviso here, I haven't re-read all his guest appearances, as they are scattered all through my collection, so if you have a counter-example from there, feel free to bring it up. I freely admit there is always the chance I can miss something.

He didn't have to many speed feats that I can think of, only one I can think of is easily dodging Savage Hulk (that was classic Puck) and speedblitzing a terrorist from 20-30 feet away before he could even pull the trigger.

I'm compiling the scans right now, and most of his durability feats did take place in Alpha Flight. I will post them later in the day as I'm heading to work shortly.

Actually, strictly speaking, it was the Plodex copy of him. Would that copy have a reason to lie over such a minor thing? No, I can't think of one. Could he get it wrong? Yes, in theory. Ever seen the original Star Trek "What are little girls made of?". Someone copies Kirk, but he has enough will power to place a clue, a response which is atypical of the real Kirk and will alert others to this being a fake.

Earlier Handbooks confirmed what I think John Byrne explained in interviews but never got round to saying in the actual pages of the comics, which is that Puck chose his name after the character in Shakespeare's play. Normally a statement in the pages of the comic would overrule the Handbook (and the original creator's intentions), but it's coming from a potentially unreliable source. I'll admit, when I was writing Puck, I missed that, because I wasn't paying attention to what the ersatz Puck said (I had a couple hundred issues to go through for Puck, and by the end I wasn't paying as tight attention to those around him, because the profile was about Puck, not them).

So, we've got definitive statement in earlier Handbooks based on creator's intentions contradicted by definitive statement from an unreliable source. I'm not going to just dismiss the evidence which suggests I got it wrong, because that would be biased of me, ignoring the bits which don't support "my side" of the debate. But equally, if Alpha Flight vol.1 had confirmed the Shakespeare connection, no one would argue that vol.3 simply got it wrong, and Handbooks are also canonical sources (Gruenwald used them to add in backstory the comics provided by the writers that the regular titles hadn't had space to include, and in that respect they are the same as if the writer had introduced the info in a text story). Plus, it didn't come from the real Puck which does allow for a level of doubt. So what we have here is two conflicting canonical sources. In hindsight, if I had noticed the ersatz Puck's comment, I would simply have left out the comment about where Puck got his name, because rather than confirming the origin of his codename, Plodex Puck's statement has left introduced a level of doubt. We are no longer sure which version is accurate.

Well apparently the Plodex copies had all their powers, abilities, and memories downloaded into the computer from the original members. So technically he shouldn't have made a mistake, but you may be right. Personally I hope so as Eugene naming himself after the Shakespeare's Puck makes far more sense than Puck II doing it. Also haha nice Star Trek reference.

Which handbooks? I don't recall which one it could have said it. It wasn't The Official Handbook Of The Marvel Universe #1 (Vol.1) & Master Edition #1 (Vol.3). I also remember Bryne saying: "He's called Puck because of his tendency to do cartwheels and spin around rooms, and crash into things. He wears a black costume with a "P" on the chest." I believe you, I bet it is said somewhere I just havn't read most of the old handbook entries and interview for years. Meh! It's a moot point, and makes perfect sense though.

I think you got it right, and from Puck's experience and who he actually is; a scholar. It makes perfect sense he would name himself after Puck. Also vol.3 had many continuity errors, such as their explanation of Marrina's origins, as well as the Plodex ship, which was the main focus point in the series was well... destroyed in AF #3-4 [Vol.1] (forget which issue)
===
Durability comment I will hopefully get to shortly.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Loki,

I loved the Puck entry and was also very excited to see an entry for Huntarr. I hope there are more Microns/Micronauts (Commander Arcturus Rann, Marionette, Devil and maybe Fireflyte) on the way.

Dana

[Loki]

Again, thanks. I like Puck, he's an interesting character, and piecing together a coherent history from him based on the various snippets of information he's dropped over the years wasn't work, it was fun.

Yeah it was great, what other etries have you done for the handbooks?

More than some, less than others, overall quite a few. In that issue, Impossible Man, Nightshade, Diamondback, Hammer, Human Robot, Hunter in Darkness, Mark Hazzard, Nextwave, Speedfreek, and of course Puck.

No problem. I should point out that the Master Edition, which is the Handbook you've mentioned, didn't strictly say he could move at 111-115 mph. What it said was that he was in the speed bracket whose top speed was that (and above the speed bracket whose top speed was 65mph). So again we have a range, though a tighter one than the current grids give us. From what we've seen in the comics, I wouldn't place him at the 115 mph end the scale.

Anyway, now gone back and rechecked the issues of Alpha Flight to respond to your other comments. Proviso here, I haven't re-read all his guest appearances, as they are scattered all through my collection, so if you have a counter-example from there, feel free to bring it up. I freely admit there is always the chance I can miss something.

He didn't have to many speed feats that I can think of, only one I can think of is easily dodging Savage Hulk (that was classic Puck) and speedblitzing a terrorist from 20-30 feet away before he could even pull the trigger.

I'm compiling the scans right now, and most of his durability feats did take place in Alpha Flight. I will post them later in the day as I'm heading to work shortly.

Actually, strictly speaking, it was the Plodex copy of him. Would that copy have a reason to lie over such a minor thing? No, I can't think of one. Could he get it wrong? Yes, in theory. Ever seen the original Star Trek "What are little girls made of?". Someone copies Kirk, but he has enough will power to place a clue, a response which is atypical of the real Kirk and will alert others to this being a fake.

Earlier Handbooks confirmed what I think John Byrne explained in interviews but never got round to saying in the actual pages of the comics, which is that Puck chose his name after the character in Shakespeare's play.

Okay, I'm going to have to eat some crow here. After writing this, I subsequently double checked the earlier Handbooks, and I couldn't find mention of the Shakespeare link. Moreover, while I still am sure I recall something along that line being mentioned in an interview (Marvel Age #1?), another Handbook writer has pointed out that John Byrne's FAQ says otherwise. So, I'll admit I'm at a loss as to where I got it from now. Keep in mind I wrote that entry around four or five months ago, and have written dozens since, so recalling all the details isn't easy. Normally I'm extremely careful only to add in things from the issues themselves, and while I vaguely recall that interview mentioned above, I wouldn't have included information from that in an entry without further corroboration "on camera". Only two options I can see - (1) it was said in an issue, but I foolishly failed to include in my notes I made while reading Puck's appearances as to which one, and now I'm going to have to go back through them all to check; or (2) I suffered some sort of brain infarction while writing, mis-read the ersatz Puck vs. femPuck fight, and put in something completely wrong. Annoying, but if I've made a mistake, I'll admit it. I'll just have to re-read every appearance again, so don't expect a final judgement anytime soon (if I didn't get it wrong, I could be back quickly with the place it was said; if I did get it wrong, then it'll definitely take a while to confirm it by going back through everything).

Normally a statement in the pages of the comic would overrule the Handbook (and the original creator's intentions), but it's coming from a potentially unreliable source. I'll admit, when I was writing Puck, I missed that, because I wasn't paying attention to what the ersatz Puck said (I had a couple hundred issues to go through for Puck, and by the end I wasn't paying as tight attention to those around him, because the profile was about Puck, not them).

So, we've got definitive statement in earlier Handbooks based on creator's intentions contradicted by definitive statement from an unreliable source. I'm not going to just dismiss the evidence which suggests I got it wrong, because that would be biased of me, ignoring the bits which don't support "my side" of the debate. But equally, if Alpha Flight vol.1 had confirmed the Shakespeare connection, no one would argue that vol.3 simply got it wrong, and Handbooks are also canonical sources (Gruenwald used them to add in backstory the comics provided by the writers that the regular titles hadn't had space to include, and in that respect they are the same as if the writer had introduced the info in a text story). Plus, it didn't come from the real Puck which does allow for a level of doubt. So what we have here is two conflicting canonical sources. In hindsight, if I had noticed the ersatz Puck's comment, I would simply have left out the comment about where Puck got his name, because rather than confirming the origin of his codename, Plodex Puck's statement has left introduced a level of doubt. We are no longer sure which version is accurate.

Well apparently the Plodex copies had all their powers, abilities, and memories downloaded into the computer from the original members. So technically he shouldn't have made a mistake, but you may be right. Personally I hope so as Eugene naming himself after the Shakespeare's Puck makes far more sense than Puck II doing it. Also haha nice Star Trek reference.

Which handbooks? I don't recall which one it could have said it. It wasn't The Official Handbook Of The Marvel Universe #1 (Vol.1) & Master Edition #1 (Vol.3). I also remember Bryne saying: "He's called Puck because of his tendency to do cartwheels and spin around rooms, and crash into things. He wears a black costume with a "P" on the chest." I believe you, I bet it is said somewhere I just havn't read most of the old handbook entries and interview for years. Meh! It's a moot point, and makes perfect sense though.

It would, and what I said would still stand, if I hadn't been wrong about what the earlier Handbooks said. That's why for writing the profiles, we never rely on memory, because it can cheat. My memory said that the comment in the profile came from a Handbook, but that's not the case. However I didn't rely on memory while writing the profile, so if I have added in that Shakespeare reference without finding it first in an issue, I'm at a loss as to why I would have done so.

[Loki]

Loki,

I loved the Puck entry and was also very excited to see an entry for Huntarr. I hope there are more Microns/Micronauts (Commander Arcturus Rann, Marionette, Devil and maybe Fireflyte) on the way.

Dana

Plans can change (sometimes we can drop someone we planned to cover because we need to instead cover a new character just introduced, or an old character we hadn't planned on because they've just reappeared), but as things stand, yes, you'll see some more Microns coverage this year.

[-K-M-]

More than some, less than others, overall quite a few. In that issue, Impossible Man, Nightshade, Diamondback, Hammer, Human Robot, Hunter in Darkness, Mark Hazzard, Nextwave, Speedfreek, and of course Puck.

Wow, I'm impressed that's a lot of issues you have to read to complete those bios

Okay, I'm going to have to eat some crow here. After writing this, I subsequently double checked the earlier Handbooks, and I couldn't find mention of the Shakespeare link. Moreover, while I still am sure I recall something along that line being mentioned in an interview (Marvel Age #1?), another Handbook writer has pointed out that John Byrne's FAQ says otherwise. So, I'll admit I'm at a loss as to where I got it from now. Keep in mind I wrote that entry around four or five months ago, and have written dozens since, so recalling all the details isn't easy. Normally I'm extremely careful only to add in things from the issues themselves, and while I vaguely recall that interview mentioned above, I wouldn't have included information from that in an entry without further corroboration "on camera". Only two options I can see - (1) it was said in an issue, but I foolishly failed to include in my notes I made while reading Puck's appearances as to which one, and now I'm going to have to go back through them all to check; or (2) I suffered some sort of brain infarction while writing, mis-read the ersatz Puck vs. femPuck fight, and put in something completely wrong. Annoying, but if I've made a mistake, I'll admit it. I'll just have to re-read every appearance again, so don't expect a final judgement anytime soon (if I didn't get it wrong, I could be back quickly with the place it was said; if I did get it wrong, then it'll definitely take a while to confirm it by going back through everything).

Here's the Marvel Age interview: http://www.geocities.com/rplass/afcollector/ma2.htm

haha yeah I understand, trying to recall a small point after just writing 10 enteries in one issue is tough. Truthfully I wouldn't stress it, like I said it's a moot point and makes far more sense than Puck II getting her name from it. I definetly appreicate the concern, but I'm actually quite glad about the possible switch. I'm sure you did get it from somewhere, but I'm drawing a blank

It would, and what I said would still stand, if I hadn't been wrong about what the earlier Handbooks said. That's why for writing the profiles, we never rely on memory, because it can cheat. My memory said that the comment in the profile came from a Handbook, but that's not the case. However I didn't rely on memory while writing the profile, so if I have added in that Shakespeare reference without finding it first in an issue, I'm at a loss as to why I would have done so.

Well if you didn't read that part about vol.3 with the interactions between Plodex Puck and Puck II you must have picked it up somewhere. I'm not sure where, but all honesty it makes far more sense. Puck often quotes Shakespeare in battle, and greatly enjoys his work. Here's another instance showing Puck's a scholar

1. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...erine35_11.jpg
2. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...erine35_12.jpg

[-K-M-]

Okay, part of this is the type of power grid we now use, and part of it is that it seems Puck's power levels have faded since he intially got shrunk back into a dwarf.

Well technically the writer for Alpha Flight vol.2 even admited he was going to ignore the upgrade and return Puck just to a regular atheletic dwarf and ignored the upgrade all together.

On the former, the Master Edition grids had different levels, and they don't always equate. We've had people look at Punisher having a fighting skills level of 7 while Iron Fist has a level of 6, and concluding that we are claiming Punisher could take Iron Fist in hand-to-hand combat, missing the point that the fighting skills grid becomes non-linear at the top end (e.g. 6 is not always less than 7). 6 means expert in many types of combat, 7 means expert in all. Iron Fist (the current one, rather than his recently introduced predecessor) isn't skilled with guns, for example, so he can't be a 7; Punisher is a jack-of-all-trades, expert in pretty much everything, so he gets a 7 - but there are different levels of expertise, and if he entered a fair hand-to-hand, no dirty tactics or weapons, fight with Iron Fist, the Fist would hand him his head (of course, the Punisher wouldn't fight fair, or without weapons if he can help it). Its the difference between being a Black Belt and being a fifth dan Black Belt; both are experts, one's more of an expert than the other.

In the same way, the durability grid isn't as defined as it used to be. Someone with 3, enhanced durability can be much tougher and harder to hurt than Wolverine, who was 4 (regenerative) on the scale; its the healing that gives you the 4. "Enhanced" covers a potentially huge range, and covers anything up to the point where bullets and other penetrative attacks can't penetrate.[/quote]

I understand how the fighting skills could generate abit of controvesy, but durability isn't a broad topic. Especially how the old handbook laid out the different sections. If the new handbook conducted a proper definition of enhanced that would be far more benefical and clear up possible confusions

On the latter, power fading. Can you provide me examples of where he was bulletproof (where did bullets bounce off him), the fire and the fall? As I said, I could have missed those, but re-reading, I didn't spot any of them in Alpha Flight. Shortly after his becoming a dwarf again he is seen venturing near flames alongside Diamond Lil, and he does take blasts from an alien spaceship around #100, but we don't really know just how powerful those blasts are. We are told he is incredibly tough, but there's surprisingly little evidence to back it up. However, subsequent to this (e.g. as soon as writers other than the one who gave Puck the enhanced powers), we get little indication of Puck having such durability. In fact, during the second Alpha Flight run, he gets blasted unconscious time and again - and notably he gets knocked out by a punch from a non-superpowered Department H agent in Alpha Flight II #1. His durability seems to have lessened, perhaps dropping closer to human levels over time.

I don't agree with the fading as that was never addressed just some writers tend to ignore it as I explain in the last paragraph. Below is the various durability feats and statements. Well that's because the writer wanted to ignore the Razer and rubber density, which he said in an interview. He just wanted to go back to Puck as a dwarf nothing more but never explained why.

--------------------------------------------
Durability
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The Official Handbook Of The Marvel Universe - Master Edition #1: Puck (Upgraded)
After reading this even I have really underated the little guy. After the experiments by The Master he really turned into a formiable opponent even matching stats with Spider-Man. If you want to view them, [Click here!]. I'm even tempted to make a Puck vs. Spider-Man thread after this. In case your wondering what the areas mean here is the list [Click Here!]

1. http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...n-01-PuckA.jpg
2. http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...n-01-PuckB.jpg
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Avengers #322 (Vol.1): Puck (Upgraded)
Puck mentions his new body is “nearly indestructible”

1. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...13_rougher.jpg
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Avengers #324 (Vol.1): Puck (Upgraded)
Puck makes mention of his “invulnerable” body and blocks from the Combine

1. http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...11_rougher.jpg
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Alpha Flight #100 (Vol.1): Puck (Upgraded)
Only half of the story, the other is the Avengers and Alpha Flight do battle against Galactus. Half of the heroes still have to deal with the Consortium invasion of Toronto. Puck shows off his new found durability

1. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...ight100-03.jpg
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Alpha Flight #100 (Vol.1): Puck (Upgraded)
Puck can survive a several story drop, in reality the ship was over 1000 feet in the air

1. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ama/AFS-22.jpg
2. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...ight100-30.jpg
3. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...ight100-34.jpg
4. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...ight100-37.jpg
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Alpha Flight #96 (Vol.1): Puck (Upgrade)
Thanks to his upgrade, Puck's immune to fire as he was in a blaze on an oil tanker

1. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l1...light96-13.jpg

Is this something I like, that a writer seems to have forgotten the level he used to be at? Not really. But equally I can't ignore it, because there's regular evidence of this lower power level. It's exactly the same as the Union Jack entry I wrote for A-Z #12. Joey Chapman is empowered by the Green Knight with the Pendragon spirit, and used to be around the 90 ton range, but now, despite writers mentioning he still has the Pendragon power, we see that Master Man can shrug off Joey's punches but not those of Captain America. Hence, I can include what Joey's power level used to be, hoping another writer might use that, but have to conclude that he has powered down somewhat at the moment. Puck is still tougher than your average person by a fair way, but no longer as tough as he was depicted in the first ten or so issues after he became a dwarf again.

Well Cap tends to make everyone job to him, just recently he hurt Onslaught...yesh!. Also it's a common occurance of Alpha Flight's powers being completly ignored and they tend to "job". Such as Maverick beating Vindicator II and Puck with ease, and Juggernaut smacking around Guardian and Vindicator. Not once did they use their blasts and writer forgot about their shields. Then there is Northstar beating Guardian, and writer forgot Mac has a shield and the fact Mac doesn't wear the suit. He is the suit being a cyborg, so removing the clothing as Northstar did would not depower him. I can name off dozen more instances were other writers "dumb" down Alpha Flight to make their characters look good.

[Loki]

More than some, less than others, overall quite a few. In that issue, Impossible Man, Nightshade, Diamondback, Hammer, Human Robot, Hunter in Darkness, Mark Hazzard, Nextwave, Speedfreek, and of course Puck.

Wow, I'm impressed that's a lot of issues you have to read to complete those bios

You're right about that.

Okay, I'm going to have to eat some crow here. After writing this, I subsequently double checked the earlier Handbooks, and I couldn't find mention of the Shakespeare link. Moreover, while I still am sure I recall something along that line being mentioned in an interview (Marvel Age #1?), another Handbook writer has pointed out that John Byrne's FAQ says otherwise. So, I'll admit I'm at a loss as to where I got it from now. Keep in mind I wrote that entry around four or five months ago, and have written dozens since, so recalling all the details isn't easy. Normally I'm extremely careful only to add in things from the issues themselves, and while I vaguely recall that interview mentioned above, I wouldn't have included information from that in an entry without further corroboration "on camera". Only two options I can see - (1) it was said in an issue, but I foolishly failed to include in my notes I made while reading Puck's appearances as to which one, and now I'm going to have to go back through them all to check; or (2) I suffered some sort of brain infarction while writing, mis-read the ersatz Puck vs. femPuck fight, and put in something completely wrong. Annoying, but if I've made a mistake, I'll admit it. I'll just have to re-read every appearance again, so don't expect a final judgement anytime soon (if I didn't get it wrong, I could be back quickly with the place it was said; if I did get it wrong, then it'll definitely take a while to confirm it by going back through everything).

Here's the Marvel Age interview: http://www.geocities.com/rplass/afcollector/ma2.htm


haha yeah I understand, trying to recall a small point after just writing 10 enteries in one issue is tough. Truthfully I wouldn't stress it, like I said it's a moot point and makes far more sense than Puck II getting her name from it. I definetly appreicate the concern, but I'm actually quite glad about the possible switch. I'm sure you did get it from somewhere, but I'm drawing a blank

Okay, I've identified that much, thanks to one of my fellow writers having an excellent memory - Alpha Flight #22 letters page, 1985, Brian Tate: "This is [a] note to all who think that our little friend Puck is named after the small plastic disc that hockey players hit around the ice. Wrong puck. According to Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, a puck is a mischievous sprite. And I'm sure you will agree with me that this definition certainly suits our short friend better than the former."

Denny O'Neil: "Yes, Brian, we certainly agree with you. After all, Puck has certainly always been short, and through his devilish ways has always boosted the morale of the ALPHA FLIGHT team."

Not as definitive as I remembered (but it was 20 odd years ago I read it), but you had the editor indirectly confirming in the letters that it came from the Shakespeare character. HOWEVER, that still doesn't explain why I included it in the profile - I didn't re-read the letters pages, and I don't include stuff I vaguely recall, I go and check the issues to confirm that niggling memory.

It would, and what I said would still stand, if I hadn't been wrong about what the earlier Handbooks said. That's why for writing the profiles, we never rely on memory, because it can cheat. My memory said that the comment in the profile came from a Handbook, but that's not the case. However I didn't rely on memory while writing the profile, so if I have added in that Shakespeare reference without finding it first in an issue, I'm at a loss as to why I would have done so.

Well if you didn't read that part about vol.3 with the interactions between Plodex Puck and Puck II you must have picked it up somewhere. I'm not sure where, but all honesty it makes far more sense. Puck often quotes Shakespeare in battle, and greatly enjoys his work. Here's another instance showing Puck's a scholar

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2. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...erine35_12.jpg

I'll figure it out eventually. It may well have been in a guest starring appearance or something like that. It's going to bug me now until I either find it or have searched enough to conclude I got it wrong.

[Loki]

Okay, part of this is the type of power grid we now use, and part of it is that it seems Puck's power levels have faded since he intially got shrunk back into a dwarf.

Well technically the writer for Alpha Flight vol.2 even admited he was going to ignore the upgrade and return Puck just to a regular atheletic dwarf and ignored the upgrade all together.

And there's the problem. If it had been a one-off appearance where a guest writer messed up and forgot how powerful he was, we can write it off as a mistake (or, if you want to "no-prize" it, a temporary power fluctuation). However what we had was the series regular writer saying that he was lowering Puck's power level, and demonstrating it repeatedly over an extended period of time in the title. Annoying though it may be, he has the right to do that the same way FabNic had the right to power Puck up, and he also has the right to do so without showing explicitly why on screen - for reasons as yet unknown Puck's power levels dropped closer to human norm (possibly just a natural process of his body adjusting over time after being shrunk). The Handbook has to represent him as he is now.

On the former, the Master Edition grids had different levels, and they don't always equate. We've had people look at Punisher having a fighting skills level of 7 while Iron Fist has a level of 6, and concluding that we are claiming Punisher could take Iron Fist in hand-to-hand combat, missing the point that the fighting skills grid becomes non-linear at the top end (e.g. 6 is not always less than 7). 6 means expert in many types of combat, 7 means expert in all. Iron Fist (the current one, rather than his recently introduced predecessor) isn't skilled with guns, for example, so he can't be a 7; Punisher is a jack-of-all-trades, expert in pretty much everything, so he gets a 7 - but there are different levels of expertise, and if he entered a fair hand-to-hand, no dirty tactics or weapons, fight with Iron Fist, the Fist would hand him his head (of course, the Punisher wouldn't fight fair, or without weapons if he can help it). Its the difference between being a Black Belt and being a fifth dan Black Belt; both are experts, one's more of an expert than the other.

In the same way, the durability grid isn't as defined as it used to be. Someone with 3, enhanced durability can be much tougher and harder to hurt than Wolverine, who was 4 (regenerative) on the scale; its the healing that gives you the 4. "Enhanced" covers a potentially huge range, and covers anything up to the point where bullets and other penetrative attacks can't penetrate.

I understand how the fighting skills could generate abit of controvesy, but durability isn't a broad topic. Especially how the old handbook laid out the different sections. If the new handbook conducted a proper definition of enhanced that would be far more benefical and clear up possible confusions[/quote]

Not going to argue that - the writers also know the grids aren't as precise as they could be. They were already in place when we all came on board, and we can't change them. The FAQ page on Marvel.com tries to explain/define them a bit better though.

On the latter, power fading. Can you provide me examples of where he was bulletproof (where did bullets bounce off him), the fire and the fall? As I said, I could have missed those, but re-reading, I didn't spot any of them in Alpha Flight. Shortly after his becoming a dwarf again he is seen venturing near flames alongside Diamond Lil, and he does take blasts from an alien spaceship around #100, but we don't really know just how powerful those blasts are. We are told he is incredibly tough, but there's surprisingly little evidence to back it up. However, subsequent to this (e.g. as soon as writers other than the one who gave Puck the enhanced powers), we get little indication of Puck having such durability. In fact, during the second Alpha Flight run, he gets blasted unconscious time and again - and notably he gets knocked out by a punch from a non-superpowered Department H agent in Alpha Flight II #1. His durability seems to have lessened, perhaps dropping closer to human levels over time.

I don't agree with the fading as that was never addressed just some writers tend to ignore it as I explain in the last paragraph.

I don't agree with the fading of Union Jack's powers, especially since the people writing him all keep mentioning he still has the Pendragon spirit in him. However, we have to accept it. People don't just get power upgrades, they get downgrades too. And, as you mentioned above, the writer who downgraded him didn't do so out of a mistake, because he was unaware of Puck's previous power level, he did so out of conscious choice. Would it have been nice if he could have included even a line like "Since my powers faded I've got to be more careful these days" or similar? Yes, but he didn't.

Below is the various durability feats and statements. Well that's because the writer wanted to ignore the Razer and rubber density, which he said in an interview. He just wanted to go back to Puck as a dwarf nothing more but never explained why.

--------------------------------------------
Durability
---------------------------------------------
The Official Handbook Of The Marvel Universe - Master Edition #1: Puck (Upgraded)
After reading this even I have really underated the little guy. After the experiments by The Master he really turned into a formiable opponent even matching stats with Spider-Man. If you want to view them, [Click here!]. I'm even tempted to make a Puck vs. Spider-Man thread after this. In case your wondering what the areas mean here is the list [Click Here!]

Thanks. I'd seen these anyway, but as I said, Vol.2 seemed to contradict the durability level. The Handbook levels are canon, but they are a snapshot of him at that point in time, and things change. As such, there's little point individually analysing the examples you provided, all of which come before Volume 2. That said, I had spotted some of them, as noted above - but Puck isn't actually in the fire, so that makes it hard to judge his actual level of resistance (dialogue notwithstanding), it's hard to gauge the power level of the Consortium's energy blasts (undeniably powerful, but unlike being able to bounce bullets, we have no real world comparison's to tell us how powerful such blasts are), and the fall is inconclusive, because Black Widow makes the same drop in those images, and she can neither fly, nor is she superhumanly durable - so either the ship was lower than first seen, or Northstar came back after dropping off his first passenger, or there was something handy on the way down for an acrobatic person to use to slow their fall. Regardless though, I'm not denying Puck was once more durable (though that vague power scale we have now might still have placed him on the 3 based on the feats seen, albeit right at the upper end of it), he isn't now. Since we haven't been told or shown that he's completely back to human levels, the Handbook entry still gives him superhuman strength, speed and durability, just not as high (at least on durability, the one we are able to figure from his fights) as he used to have.

[-K-M-]

And there's the problem. If it had been a one-off appearance where a guest writer messed up and forgot how powerful he was, we can write it off as a mistake (or, if you want to "no-prize" it, a temporary power fluctuation). However what we had was the series regular writer saying that he was lowering Puck's power level, and demonstrating it repeatedly over an extended period of time in the title. Annoying though it may be, he has the right to do that the same way FabNic had the right to power Puck up, and he also has the right to do so without showing explicitly why on screen - for reasons as yet unknown Puck's power levels dropped closer to human norm (possibly just a natural process of his body adjusting over time after being shrunk). The Handbook has to represent him as he is now.

Actually he ignored continuity simply erasing the entire Razer incident. You can't simply erase a HUGE part of his history without any explanation what's so ever. As bad as it was, it still happened. Other writers have shown Mac repeatly without a shield, but that contradicts that is said in the mainstream series. Even in vol.3 they showed Mac without a shield for no reason so do we take that as canon? Even recetly Puck took a full force blow to the back of the head from current Juggernaut and his head wasn't made mush.

I don't agree with the fading of Union Jack's powers, especially since the people writing him all keep mentioning he still has the Pendragon spirit in him. However, we have to accept it. People don't just get power upgrades, they get downgrades too. And, as you mentioned above, the writer who downgraded him didn't do so out of a mistake, because he was unaware of Puck's previous power level, he did so out of conscious choice. Would it have been nice if he could have included even a line like "Since my powers faded I've got to be more careful these days" or similar? Yes, but he didn't.

Well that goes a long with my earlier comment about jobbing. Wolverine and Captain America are perfect characters of where some characters who should easily beat him they don't as their more popular. One time, bone claw Wolverine back handed Mac with his shield up and he groaned in pain. Horrible, just horrible.

Thanks. I'd seen these anyway, but as I said, Vol.2 seemed to contradict the durability level. The Handbook levels are canon, but they are a snapshot of him at that point in time, and things change. As such, there's little point individually analysing the examples you provided, all of which come before Volume 2. That said, I had spotted some of them, as noted above - but Puck isn't actually in the fire, so that makes it hard to judge his actual level of resistance (dialogue notwithstanding), it's hard to gauge the power level of the Consortium's energy blasts (undeniably powerful, but unlike being able to bounce bullets, we have no real world comparison's to tell us how powerful such blasts are), and the fall is inconclusive, because Black Widow makes the same drop in those images, and she can neither fly, nor is she superhumanly durable - so either the ship was lower than first seen, or Northstar came back after dropping off his first passenger, or there was something handy on the way down for an acrobatic person to use to slow their fall. Regardless though, I'm not denying Puck was once more durable (though that vague power scale we have now might still have placed him on the 3 based on the feats seen, albeit right at the upper end of it), he isn't now. Since we haven't been told or shown that he's completely back to human levels, the Handbook entry still gives him superhuman strength, speed and durability, just not as high (at least on durability, the one we are able to figure from his fights) as he used to have.

Well considering his body was basically like compressed rubber, it can take extremes in pressure and temperatures so yeah I'm 100% positive he would not be harmed by the fire. Well considering the Constorium blasts were koing people like the likes of Guardian II with a single blast yes they were VERY powerful. The combined might of the People's Proctate, Avengers and Alpha Flight couldn't do anything to them. Black Widow has also shown to send wires to cling to things from stop failing and they were right beside the CN Tower and just earlier Northstar comments Puck can survive a several story drop. Well as a mentioned getting punched in the back of the head from Juggernaut who was pissed off is a strong indication he is more than just a little over normal human durability.

[kozzi24]

How's this for a quick fix to Puck's inconsistencies between V2 appearances and other appearances before and after:

During the entirety of V2, Puck was pretty much brainwashed. That brainwashing may have included his perceptions of his powers. He was knowcked around easily during V2 because of the brainwashing. With that effect removed and his mind restored, he has "resumed" his compressed rubber abilities, as seen when smacked by Juggernaut.

[Loki]

Sorry for the slow response - deadlines.

And there's the problem. If it had been a one-off appearance where a guest writer messed up and forgot how powerful he was, we can write it off as a mistake (or, if you want to "no-prize" it, a temporary power fluctuation). However what we had was the series regular writer saying that he was lowering Puck's power level, and demonstrating it repeatedly over an extended period of time in the title. Annoying though it may be, he has the right to do that the same way FabNic had the right to power Puck up, and he also has the right to do so without showing explicitly why on screen - for reasons as yet unknown Puck's power levels dropped closer to human norm (possibly just a natural process of his body adjusting over time after being shrunk). The Handbook has to represent him as he is now.

Actually he ignored continuity simply erasing the entire Razer incident. You can't simply erase a HUGE part of his history without any explanation what's so ever. As bad as it was, it still happened.

Agreed, both that you can't just erase the continuity and that Razer wasn't the most inspired addition to Puck's backstory. It would have been nice when writing the profile to ignore it, but that wasn't an option. Trouble is, Seagle didn't actively erase Razer (as far as I recall), he just never brought it up. While he may have said in interviews that as far as he was concerned it never happened (from what you have told me), he didn't actively contradict it, he just didn't mention it - which is perfectly allowable.

Other writers have shown Mac repeatly without a shield, but that contradicts that is said in the mainstream series. Even in vol.3 they showed Mac without a shield for no reason so do we take that as canon?

We can take it either as an error, or if shown often enough, assume his shield's not as reliable as he'd like it to be (e.g. it's not always on). The Handbooks can't normally ignore evidence, we have to try and explain it. Odd occasions, we can put down to characters having off-days or writer error, repeated instances we suggest reasons for.

Even recetly Puck took a full force blow to the back of the head from current Juggernaut and his head wasn't made mush.

Now that's a valid point. Puck was repeatedly show with a lower durability during volume 2, suggesting a power drop for some reason. Taking a blow from Juggernaut in itself doesn't prove enhanced durability (various heroes in the X-Men who lack durability have taken blows), but does suggest the power level going back up somewhat (from Volume 2 when a normal human hitting him hard on the head KOed him). On it's own though, it might not prove a level higher than enhanced, because as I said before, enhanced covers a fairly wide range.

I don't agree with the fading of Union Jack's powers, especially since the people writing him all keep mentioning he still has the Pendragon spirit in him. However, we have to accept it. People don't just get power upgrades, they get downgrades too. And, as you mentioned above, the writer who downgraded him didn't do so out of a mistake, because he was unaware of Puck's previous power level, he did so out of conscious choice. Would it have been nice if he could have included even a line like "Since my powers faded I've got to be more careful these days" or similar? Yes, but he didn't.

Well that goes a long with my earlier comment about jobbing. Wolverine and Captain America are perfect characters of where some characters who should easily beat him they don't as their more popular. One time, bone claw Wolverine back handed Mac with his shield up and he groaned in pain. Horrible, just horrible.

Jobbing happens on occasion, and can be written off as one hero having a good day while another has a bad day. However, as I've said, the problem with Puck was that Volume 2 showed a consistent reduction in durability level.

Thanks. I'd seen these anyway, but as I said, Vol.2 seemed to contradict the durability level. The Handbook levels are canon, but they are a snapshot of him at that point in time, and things change. As such, there's little point individually analysing the examples you provided, all of which come before Volume 2. That said, I had spotted some of them, as noted above - but Puck isn't actually in the fire, so that makes it hard to judge his actual level of resistance (dialogue notwithstanding), it's hard to gauge the power level of the Consortium's energy blasts (undeniably powerful, but unlike being able to bounce bullets, we have no real world comparison's to tell us how powerful such blasts are), and the fall is inconclusive, because Black Widow makes the same drop in those images, and she can neither fly, nor is she superhumanly durable - so either the ship was lower than first seen, or Northstar came back after dropping off his first passenger, or there was something handy on the way down for an acrobatic person to use to slow their fall. Regardless though, I'm not denying Puck was once more durable (though that vague power scale we have now might still have placed him on the 3 based on the feats seen, albeit right at the upper end of it), he isn't now. Since we haven't been told or shown that he's completely back to human levels, the Handbook entry still gives him superhuman strength, speed and durability, just not as high (at least on durability, the one we are able to figure from his fights) as he used to have.

Well considering his body was basically like compressed rubber, it can take extremes in pressure and temperatures so yeah I'm 100% positive he would not be harmed by the fire. Well considering the Constorium blasts were koing people like the likes of Guardian II with a single blast yes they were VERY powerful. The combined might of the People's Proctate, Avengers and Alpha Flight couldn't do anything to them. Black Widow has also shown to send wires to cling to things from stop failing and they were right beside the CN Tower and just earlier Northstar comments Puck can survive a several story drop. Well as a mentioned getting punched in the back of the head from Juggernaut who was pissed off is a strong indication he is more than just a little over normal human durability.

I don't want to get into an arguement over the examples you provided. I do actually agree with you that Puck's level was that much higher back then; I just wanted to point out that those specific examples aren't automatically as clear cut as they might be, and that regardless, later evidence shows a reduction in durability level. And enhanced doesn't mean "just a little over normal human durability"; like the strength levels, its a range.