Alpha Death Revisited

[syvalois]

The only way to have successful Canadian owned Comics would be A) To have gov't funding, or B) to attach them to an indie label, ala Scott Pilgrim, (go read it!) But when it comes right down to it, breaking a major "universe" that can compete with Marvel/DC universes is unrealistic imo. The comics market is saturated sadly enough, because not enough people respect it.

I never said it would be easy or realistic. I'm just saying as long as you don't produce your own stuff, don't expect to have a "canadian" respect. And it's not really have to do with respect, but mostly with ignorance, ignorance of the other and the mentality that goes with it.

I'm just asking myself a lot of questions, what if ? if you like. If AF had been americans, would you say it's lack american respect? I don't think so, because americans are the majority. Lack of respect for the characters themself? Yes, now I would say probably yes.

If, the collective just passed throught Canada and the writer did not used AF, would it have been a lack of respect too? If the writer that killed them had been a canadian, would it be the same impression?

How many canadian characters are there in DC? Not as much as in Marvel, I think. Do DC lack canadian respect too?

All that to say, that if AF where canadian own, written by canadian, that canadian respect would not even be there. It would be a question of character respect.

I also don't think that making a 3rd and 4th series is a sign of respect. Its a sign of "I wonder if we can make money off this?" In the past it may have been a sign of respect, but I haven't seen any signs so far that the marvel EXECs are into the respect game.

humm, yes,I can understand, but I also do understand that mMarvel is a company that need profite to exist, to pay good creators to do a good comic. Yes, Marvel want to do profit, I'm not offended by that. Marvel, the creators and many mores have said that the fan base is a good start, but not enough to generate enough money, if they know that from the start of volume 3 and 4, then, maybe it's not respect, but they see potential in those characters.

But look at what went wrong i the other series. It been said Mantlo did not wanted to write the book, he wanted to do he's own creation. Vol 2, the penciller and inker did not do their job on time, they were on party mode. Do we blame Marvel or the artist here? Now for vol3, I never like Lobdell, but he was a big name and the art was fabulous...but Lobdell... Well, for that, I think Marvel trusted Lobdell and they should not have.

[Flightpath07]

Perhaps this is pulling off-topic. And perhaps not.

In the Sept 06 interview with Oeming, we learn these three things...

- "There will be plenty of original (surviving) Alpha Flight cast popping up."
- The name Omega Flight was once used by a group of villains who fought Alpha Flight, which isn't a coincidence. Oeming said we'll see that addressed "a bit."
- "Why so few Canadians? At this point, there are three on or working with the team, although in the promo image we only see one."

First, let's take the Original Cast members popping up. We have to start by saying, at the time Oeming thought this was an ongoing series. However, it was at least in his plans at that time to bring in other original members to at least guest in the book. By my way of thinking, knowing now who died in the Collective battle, this then refers to Marrina, Snowbird, Aurora, Sasquatch, and Northstar.

Secondly, the Omega Flight villains connection. This "isn't a coincidence," he says. Again, I go back to my comments that it is Weapon Omega in the Guardian suit. He who once was called Wild Child, former leader of AF, and formerly tried to kill James MacDonald 'Mac' Hudson.

And again, the promo image, and the three Canadians on or with the team. Nowhere have I read that Oeming has changed his mind on this. That being said, Oeming has already told me that he considers Talisman to be a Canadian citizen. As far as I know, that HAS to mean that "Guardian" is not a Canadian citizen. Now, this may be a stretch here, BUT PERHAPS IF LOKI IS FLOATING AROUND SOMEWHERE TODAY AND SEES THIS THEN HE CAN CLEAR THIS UP FOR ME, but I still believe that Kyle Gibney (Wild Child, Wild Heart, Weapon Omega) is in the suit. Perhaps he was not born in Canada. Or perhaps he renounced his citizenship? Could he not be an American citizen, or a British one, now?
Anyways, the 2nd Canadian has to be Sasquatch.
And I believe that the third has to be their Govt Liaison, as this team HAS to be Govt run.

LOKI - have you done the article on Kyle Gibney yet in the Handbook? Are you aware of what his citizenship status is, and in which country he was born?

[SpaceGuardian]

Tossing in my 2 cents:

I'll say it again: a synth Mac would count as NOT being a Canadian citizen and keep the Guardian suit on a "Canadian" (at least an artificial one)

[Flightpath07]

lol.
Yeah, maybe they have resurrected Delphine Courtney!
Now, that'd be irony!

[Phil]

Flightpath, seriously, tone down the bold and the demanding questions.
Loki's here as a fan and a guest, he has no commitment to answering things.

Stuart, apologies.

[Loki]

Flightpath, seriously, tone down the bold and the demanding questions.
Loki's here as a fan and a guest, he has no commitment to answering things.

Stuart, apologies.

That's okay. No offense was taken. I don't mind answering questions, when I can - but sometimes I am limited in what I know, and other times in what I can safely say. I can clarify to an extent Handbook related stuff, but generally it's not my place to go into titles other writers are doing (though I will gladly plug the ones I like; I figure that's allowable).

As to Flightpath's query on Kyle G - his entry was in A-Z #12. Even if it is him in the Guardian suit, we would still have done an entry in A-Z #12 for him, to avoid giving away the surprise, and because his absence from #12 might otherwise have been noticable. Of course, I could say the same for Yukon Jack or Radius. And hey, didn't we miss out Flex? Maybe there was a reason for not including him under F... :P

As to Kyle's citizenship, somewhere there started the idea he was Scottish, but as far as we could see, that originated online. The Wild Child writer couldn't find evidence of it in the comics, and bizarely the alleged birthplace was the same as the one established for Wolfsbane. So best we can figure, unless someone here wants to point of an issue which proves otherwise, we think someone online got the backgrounds of the two mixed up, and like many rumours, it spread across the net.

Edit: Sorry, meant to finish - so unless we've missed a story where it was otherwise established, Kyle is now confirmed as having been born in Vancouver, and is Canadian.

[Le Messor]

If, the collective just passed throught Canada and the writer did not used AF, would it have been a lack of respect too? If the writer that killed them had been a canadian, would it be the same impression?

It isn't just the fact they were killed. It's the way they were killed.

Offscreen. Not putting up a fight.

Alpha have the power and experience to defeat the Collective, but killing them didn't even slow it down.

That's the lack of respect.

- Le Messor
"Kicking butt and taking initials. We're not stopping long enough to take names."
- local radio station promo

[Obsidian3d]

I have to agree with Le Messor on this last point. The solicitations for New Avengers #16 listed it as having an Alpha Flight appearance, which is technically what we got. I thought then, and I still feel now that having their death happen as it did was a very cheap and unfair way to treat Alpha Flight fans. Was it meant that way? I don't know, but regardless of intent, the overall perception of it by readers seems to have been met with outrage or disappointment.

Admittedly Alpha Flight is nowhere near as popular as other characters, but they still have fans. Can you imagine the uproar that would happen if another team, like oh...the X-Men were all killed off-panel in another book? The x-fans would go nuts, and Marvel would never do it because they know it's a bad idea. So why were we not accorded the same respect?

I would lay most of the blame primarily at Bendis's feet, as he's the writer. I usually enjoy most of his work, but in this particular case I think it was just poor planning and in poor taste. He'd never do that to Spider-Woman, who is arguably no more popular than Alpha was/is.

Regardless of how we feel about it though, it looks like we're stuck with a few uncharacteristic lines of dialogue followed by an off-panel death. That's certainly one Alpha Flight appearance that I'll never bother adding to my collection, it's not worth the paper in my opinion (although the art was nice).

[Phil]

Can you imagine the uproar that would happen if another team, like oh...the X-Men were all killed off-panel in another book? The x-fans would go nuts, and Marvel would never do it because they know it's a bad idea.

Nah, they'd just bring in an all-new all-different team and the resurrect the dead members, or bring in clones or temporal copies further down the line....

[syvalois]

It isn't just the fact they were killed. It's the way they were killed.

Offscreen. Not putting up a fight.

Alpha have the power and experience to defeat the Collective, but killing them didn't even slow it down.

That's the lack of respect.

I did not read the issue, but I agree it look lame and lacking respect to the characters, but not to canadians in particular. I'm just a little tired that every time something bad happens to AF characters, fan say Marvel lack respect to Canada. It's like complaining about Northstar been used as the gay guy and when the writer do something with him, like killing him, fans blame Marvel to have something against gays buy killing the only gay men. Personnally, I just think Marvel don't like quebeckers

I do think AF characters are so much more than just canadians and that's why people around the world likes them, even if they are more obscure than the FF or Avengers. Been canadian is a big part of their identity, but it's not all.

And I do think we have to blame Bendis for that death. Or we could say Bendis is evil and orchestred that shameful death so fans would be upset and speak out load and clear, so Oeming could do his Omega Flight proposal? Do you think Bendis could be that evil?

[cmdrkoenig67]

I have to agree with Le Messor on this last point. The solicitations for New Avengers #16 listed it as having an Alpha Flight appearance, which is technically what we got. I thought then, and I still feel now that having their death happen as it did was a very cheap and unfair way to treat Alpha Flight fans. Was it meant that way? I don't know, but regardless of intent, the overall perception of it by readers seems to have been met with outrage or disappointment.

Admittedly Alpha Flight is nowhere near as popular as other characters, but they still have fans. Can you imagine the uproar that would happen if another team, like oh...the X-Men were all killed off-panel in another book? The x-fans would go nuts, and Marvel would never do it because they know it's a bad idea. So why were we not accorded the same respect?

I agree also...Alpha Flight's last series was so much of a bomb, Marvel/Quesadilla decided they had effectively become cannon fodder (not at all fair to AF fans). Bendis also killed the wrong team, though...I wouldn't have minded so much had he killed the All New, All Histerically Unfunny AF (with Sassy still the only survivor). If it was Puck II, Mapleleaf II, Yukon Jack, Nemesis, Centennial and Mar laying mangled in the snow...Oh well.

I would lay most of the blame primarily at Bendis's feet, as he's the writer. I usually enjoy most of his work, but in this particular case I think it was just poor planning and in poor taste. He'd never do that to Spider-Woman, who is arguably no more popular than Alpha was/is.

Ah...But Alpha Flight has not had their own animated tv series, Jessica Drew has...She's had far more exposure than they have (she was even on a Saturday Night Live superhero skit, many years ago). However, Mr bendis has mangled Spider-Woman I's origin to a monumental degree (even though his SW: Origin series was meant to clear her origin up...Ugh).

Regardless of how we feel about it though, it looks like we're stuck with a few uncharacteristic lines of dialogue followed by an off-panel death. That's certainly one Alpha Flight appearance that I'll never bother adding to my collection, it's not worth the paper in my opinion (although the art was nice).

I did add it to my collection, unfortunately....My only hope is that they'll return someday, better than ever.

Dana

[Obsidian3d]

I have no doubt that it was intended to draw a reaction from readers. However, I still don't agree with the way it was done. I mean, even in DC's Fifty-Two series we get to see like 5th level characters meet their demise ON-PANEL and usually putting up some kind of fight. For Alpha Flight (a team that has had over 150 issues of their own books) to not rate the that level of fair treatment is really frustrating.

Had their fate/battle been shown or dealt with in the next few issues I would have been far more accepting of it, but it wasn't. Just *BANG*. "Sorry guys, this team doesn't rate a few actual pages and lines of REAL dialogue in our Spider-Woman / Luke Cage featuring comic book to show you their final battle. Too bad for you, now go buy the other fifty Civil War tie in books."

[Flightpath07]

Flightpath, seriously, tone down the bold and the demanding questions.
Loki's here as a fan and a guest, he has no commitment to answering things.

Stuart, apologies.

Point taken. And I add my sincere apologies to all. In my over-exhuberance to make sure my question wasn't "overlooked" (as opposed to just ignored, which I would have understood and dealt with), I forgot that I was technically "yelling."

My bad.

[Le Messor]

I did not read the issue, but I agree it look lame and lacking respect to the characters, but not to canadians in particular. I'm just a little tired that every time something bad happens to AF characters, fan say Marvel lack respect to Canada.

I get that. I think I agree with you;
but understand a couple of things:
Outside the US (I'm sure you know this, Sylvie), Americans (US) are notoriously solipsistic. Which means, they don't seem to know anybody else exists.
One of the reasons I started reading AF was, they're not set in the US. I didn't want a bunch of "The US is the greatest nation on Earth!" every month--same reason I avoid Captain America... and suddenly dreading a certain character in Omega.
(We got it, in #75. Imagine my disappointment.)

The question becomes: Do Marvel respect people outside the continental US? Or, how 'bout outside Manhatten Island? How many superhero teams have they given a real shot to outside there? W.C.A. and Alpha? Have there been any others given an ongoing?
(Not a rhetorical question.)
EDIT: I Read Runaways. How dumb am I?
But, others?

DC are worse. They all seem to take place in fictionalised versions of NY.

- Le Messor
'There'll be a comic convention in Sydney, so if you can afford a ticket to Australia, go there.'
'There's a comics course in New York; come along!'
- a single DC Bullets page

[kozzi24]

- "There will be plenty of original (surviving) Alpha Flight cast popping up."
- The name Omega Flight was once used by a group of villains who fought Alpha Flight, which isn't a coincidence. Oeming said we'll see that addressed "a bit."
- "Why so few Canadians? At this point, there are three on or working with the team, although in the promo image we only see one."

Possibly the Omega Guardian COULD be a Delphine Courtney, or even a new disguised alias for the Master?

"On or working with the team"? My view is that Mac's been dead so many times that his death in NA just returns to the Byrne era status quo. My hope is that Heather is alive and retired to liaison.