MMLJ Powers/Punch Bag etc etc...

[Effexxor]

MMjr took direct abuse from his father, who is most definately super human. MMjr managed to take that abuse and not become a grease stain. I think that may signify something.

Besides, I think we may be overthinking this a bit. First rule of science? The easiest explanation is probably the best. Thus, using this, did the plodexes make substandard copies? Probably not, that would be a waste of their time to create only half hazard copies.

Also, using this, lets remember too that MMjr's father was Major Mapleleaf, who came really close to beating the snot out of Northstar. As we've learned from the X Universe, the mutancy gene tends to pass on. It's not that hard a leap to think that perhaps MMjr inherited that gene. He may not be super powerful, but he has enough to get by.

[Phil]

Show me an amnesiac person fighting with skill without his memories. He would have no idea what a judo toss is even if he knew it before hand

Totally incorrect.
In a situation like that, in most levels of amnesia(obviously disregarding total wherein the subject would be unable to talk, walk, etc etc) skills and characteristics are dormant, and it's the details and memories that are unable to be accessed.
In a hand to hand situation that faced self preservation instinct would take over.
Although maybe not on a Tarantino scale

Wow, come on dude. You also have to take into account even force. A full punch from Plodex Vindicator didn't even BUDGE HIM. Masking pain, which I doubt even was the case was one thing, but not moving at all...impressive feat.

Okay, lets take it to a basic stereotypical level.
A female(Vindicator) throws a punch at a male, the male(MMLJ) doesn't move and isn't hurt.
Proves nothing.

Have we ever seen Heather punch out a male before?

Do we know that she could move a male with just one punch?

Genuine question there.

They did, "ALL your powers, your abilities, your memories".

That's what THEY said, yes.
They were hardly likely to say "Hey we created some half-assed clones of some second rate Avengers wannabe team and we're going to take over the world using them by sitting here and doing absolutely nothing with a bunch of alien eggs, scary eh?"

So that's like an average joe taking a punch from Sasquatch and not budging.

No, it's nothing at all like that.
Dig up some of your handbook scans and compare Heather's strength to Walt(in Sasquatch form)'s... not comparable.

Come on man, I'm all for MMJr. just being peak human, but honestly if a multiple ton character punched you, you actual believe you wouldn't even move?

Heather's multiple tons now??? Wow... I've heard of mother's gaining wait during pregnancy but geez...

Spider-Man even holding back has sent "normal" people flying with a mere flick of his finger.

Would this be the Spider-man with super strength and powers, as opposed to a woman in a geothermal suit?

why do I care if he has powers?

Why do you care so much that he was able to take a punch?

[SephirothsKiller]

I'm not gonna continue to argue this, but I do have to wonder: Are you an expert on amnesia Phil? Where are you getting all of this?

That said, I don't see why a theory needs to be jumped on...

[Phil]

It's not an arguement, so relax.

"Expert" is a bit strong, but I know a fair bit, yes.
But that's irrelevant.
I was just using my personal knowledge as an example for one part of why I believe what I believe and my reasoning for it.

I don't believe I'm jumping on any theory; merely just debating, discussing and giving my thoughts. (And if we're going to band "theory jumping" comments about then it could be equally said that my theory is being jumped on)
If I disagree with a theory then I disagree, and I'll state my case why.

It's what we do here.

Nothing personal is meant by it.

However if you or KM has taken any offence by it, I apologise wholeheartedly; feel free to speak to Ben if you have a problem with my posts.

[-K-M-]

Totally incorrect.
In a situation like that, in most levels of amnesia(obviously disregarding total wherein the subject would be unable to talk, walk, etc etc) skills and characteristics are dormant, and it's the details and memories that are unable to be accessed.
In a hand to hand situation that faced self preservation instinct would take over.
Although maybe not on a Tarantino scale

Tottally incorrect eh? show me even one example of this. I e

Okay, lets take it to a basic stereotypical level.
A female(Vindicator) throws a punch at a male, the male(MMLJ) doesn't move and isn't hurt.
Proves nothing.

Have we ever seen Heather punch out a male before?

Do we know that she could move a male with just one punch?

Genuine question there.

WHAT? OMG...Also yes, Heather in the Vindicator suit was manhandling normal assassins with her strength. She even lifted Sasquatch up with one arm. So basically your saying she is a woman and can't punch out a man?

That's what THEY said, yes.
They were hardly likely to say "Hey we created some half-assed clones of some second rate Avengers wannabe team and we're going to take over the world using them by sitting here and doing absolutely nothing with a bunch of alien eggs, scary eh?"

First off do we know they were half-assed clones? I even highly doubt it as their Plodex and super advanced. Even when the Master made the Plodex army they were even faster than speedsters and faster than Namor underwater. Collector even stated the Plodex are the most violent and dangerous in the galaxy and made it their job to intergrate specices with theirs.

No, it's nothing at all like that.
Dig up some of your handbook scans and compare Heather's strength to Walt(in Sasquatch form)'s... not comparable.

Actually it is comparable, Sasquatch is class 70, Heather is somewhere between 25-75 ton range (geothermal). I would like you to show me an example of a norm taking a punch from a person with super strength and completly out for blood and not even budging. Wow, I'm shocked you actully believe a normal person can take super punched blows.

Heather's multiple tons now??? Wow... I've heard of mother's gaining wait during pregnancy but geez..

.

Not weight, handbooks state her strength is multiple tons. If Guardian who even could press 1.5 tons and Wolverin saying "nearly knocked my head off", how would a norm fair better with a person who is vastly stronger?

Would this be the Spider-man with super strength and powers, as opposed to a woman in a geothermal suit?

A woman in a geothermal suit that has super strength far superior to Spider-Man, and a Plodex clone out for blood. It's an example where a comparison of a normal taking a blow from a super powered individual.

Why do you care so much that he was able to take a punch?

I don't all I said is he took the punch, which happened in the comics.

[kozzi24]

Maybe all the childhood abuse toughened up Junior?

How clearly were Thunder's powers defined? Junior foolwed everyone into thinking he had powers for a while, so maybe Thunder could temporarily transfer them to Junior? It would explain his sporadic durability AND powerlessness.

In keeping with the simplest explanation...bad writing?

How'bout them twins?

[DelBubs]

Oh yea the Twins, kinda forgot about them I really hope they get sorted out in the Annual, but would be loath to see them become secondary characters in some 'X' title.

[Phil]

I've already stated I don't want to argue, but hey ho..

Tottally incorrect eh? show me even one example of this. I e

Find some medical journals, some science text books, wikipedia 'amnesia', google for the case of The Piano Man(no not Billy Joel ).
But anyway, that's neither here nor there to the actual punch issue, just the whole memories don't equal skills.

WHAT? OMG...Also yes, Heather in the Vindicator suit was manhandling normal assassins with her strength. She even lifted Sasquatch up with one arm. So basically your saying she is a woman and can't punch out a man?

Heather only wore the geothermal suit for volume 2, and I don't recall any assassins in that, or her lifting Sasquatch with one arm.
Not saying it didn't happen, just that I don't recall it.
Find me a scan and all this will be over.
And not saying because she's a woman she can't punch out a man. I made a clear point that if we taking a stereotypical view the female would be weaker.

First off do we know they were half-assed clones? I even highly doubt it as their Plodex and super advanced. Even when the Master made the Plodex army they were even faster than speedsters and faster than Namor underwater. Collector even stated the Plodex are the most violent and dangerous in the galaxy and made it their job to intergrate specices with theirs.

Okay, okay, so my humour didn't exactly shine through there, my bad.
My point was just that if they were that powerful, a team of rank amateurs wouldn't have been able to beat them.

Actually it is comparable, Sasquatch is class 70, Heather is somewhere between 25-75 ton range (geothermal).

Hmm.. so Heather in a suit that controls geothermal forces without giving any extra strength has as strong a punch as Sasquatch?
Like I said before, if you've got an actual scan that can show that, I'll gladly end this all here.
Not saying you're wrong, just that it doesn't add up.

I would like you to show me an example of a norm taking a punch from a person with super strength and completly out for blood and not even budging.Wow, I'm shocked you actully believe a normal person can take super punched blows.

Therein lies my point; Heather doesn't have super strength.
That's what all this is about in my eyes.

A woman in a geothermal suit that has super strength far superior to Spider-Man, and a Plodex clone out for blood. It's an example where a comparison of a normal taking a blow from a super powered individual.

Once again I'm at a loss as to where you think geothermal = strength?

So, I'm actually going to dig out the handbook scan...



Right, poor scan I know, but I'm on the move.

"fair hand-to-hand combatant"
"Vindicator's battle-suit allows her to siphon tectonic energy and release it in the form of magma blasts, geyser bursts and other such phenomena."
Power; "Strength = 2 out of 7". (If I recall correctly MMLJ's strength was 3?)

I honestly can't see anything there to suggest any super strength at all, and the stats show she's weaker than MMLJ.

I stick with my reasoning.

I don't all I said is he took the punch, which happened in the comics.

Then that's fine.
I completely 1000000000000000000% agree that he took the punch.
Like you said, it happened so it happened. I'm not disputing that.
I personally disagree that that makes him special though.
I shall say no more upon the subject for boring everyone else.

[-K-M-]

Find some medical journals, some science text books, wikipedia 'amnesia', google for the case of The Piano Man(no not Billy Joel ).
But anyway, that's neither here nor there to the actual punch issue, just the whole memories don't equal skills.

I just asked my mom and she is a nurse and been in the medical field and she says it's not like that. As you said moot point

Heather only wore the geothermal suit for volume 2, and I don't recall any assassins in that, or her lifting Sasquatch with one arm.
Not saying it didn't happen, just that I don't recall it.
Find me a scan and all this will be over.
And not saying because she's a woman she can't punch out a man. I made a clear point that if we taking a stereotypical view the female would be weaker.

I meant E-M suit, but as pointed out in the handbook which can see seen below states she is actually stronger than her E-M suit. Except Heather has the experience of fighting for years and has been trained to even fight hand to hand. This isn't an average woman, this is a seasoned veteran in combat situations.

First off do we know they were half-assed clones? I even highly doubt it as their Plodex and super advanced. Even when the Master made the Plodex army they were even faster than speedsters and faster than Namor underwater. Collector even stated the Plodex are the most violent and dangerous in the galaxy and made it their job to intergrate specices with theirs.

Okay, okay, so my humour didn't exactly shine through there, my bad.
My point was just that if they were that powerful, a team of rank amateurs wouldn't have been able to beat them.

They were amateurs as a team, but they still showed great skill. Even if the Plodex clones were half the strength of the originals you still don't think what MMJ did was impressive?

Hmm.. so Heather in a suit that controls geothermal forces without giving any extra strength has as strong a punch as Sasquatch?
Like I said before, if you've got an actual scan that can show that, I'll gladly end this all here.
Not saying you're wrong, just that it doesn't add up.

No the suit gives her super strength as the scan will show below.

Therein lies my point; Heather doesn't have super strength.
That's what all this is about in my eyes.

She does.

A woman in a geothermal suit that has super strength far superior to Spider-Man, and a Plodex clone out for blood. It's an example where a comparison of a normal taking a blow from a super powered individual
Once again I'm at a loss as to where you think geothermal = strength?

So, I'm actually going to dig out the handbook scan...



Right, poor scan I know, but I'm on the move..
"fair hand-to-hand combatant"
"Vindicator's battle-suit allows her to siphon tectonic energy and release it in the form of magma blasts, geyser bursts and other such phenomena."
Power; "Strength = 2 out of 7". (If I recall correctly MMLJ's strength was 3?)

I honestly can't see anything there to suggest any super strength at all, and the stats show she's weaker than MMLJ.

I stick with my reasoning.

Here is the scan stating her strength:
1. http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...t3/ME2-068.jpg
2. http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...t3/ME2-240.jpg

Even the handbooks prior to the recent entry stated Mac had normal strength and we know that's false. They also stated Mac had normal speed, and we know that's flase, plus normal intelligence, then their is Puck entry ignoring events that happened...etc...etc...etc

Then that's fine.
I completely 1000000000000000000% agree that he took the punch.
Like you said, it happened so it happened. I'm not disputing that.
I personally disagree that that makes him special though.
I shall say no more upon the subject for boring everyone else.

As I said do I think he is powerless? yes of course, but that feat had superhuman abilities. Wether it be retconned or a writers error.

[Phil]

I already hate myself for carrying on with this, but ho hum..

I just asked my mom and she is a nurse and been in the medical field and she says it's not like that.

I can't believe you played that card...

I meant E-M suit

Which she hasn't worn for some time now, and the plodex clone wasn't wearing...

Except Heather has the experience of fighting for years and has been trained to even fight hand to hand. This isn't an average woman, this is a seasoned veteran in combat situations.

Even though her most recent handbook entry says she is "fair"

Even if the Plodex clones were half the strength of the originals you still don't think what MMJ did was impressive?

No, I don't. That's my whole point.
I've seen people take punches in the real world before.

No the suit gives her super strength as the scan will show below.

Yet her latest bio contradicts her old one.

Even the handbooks prior to the recent entry stated Mac had normal strength and we know that's false. They also stated Mac had normal speed, and we know that's flase, plus normal intelligence, then their is Puck entry ignoring events that happened...etc...etc...etc

Then untill we can get a definite resolution from Marvel about which strength is accurate we're never going to agree.
That won't happen, so we're not going to.
Can we leave it at agreeing to disagree.

As I said do I think he is powerless? yes of course, but that feat had superhuman abilities.

What are superhuman abilities if they're not powers?

Wether it be retconned or a writers error.

heh, some might say the whole series was a writers error
Besides, chances are he's dead now, eh?

[-K-M-]

I can't believe you played that card...

I'm no expert, so I talked to my mother who actually has experience with that first hand in the old folks home she currently works at and emerg

Which she hasn't worn for some time now, and the plodex clone wasn't wearing...

Thanks I know, but as stated the geothermal is far stronger than the E-M suit.

Even though her most recent handbook entry says she is "fair"

Another handbook entry goes against fair training, saying she is a "master combat strategist". Also anyways fair does not mean bad, far from it actually

No, I don't. That's my whole point.
I've seen people take punches in the real world before.

You would be wrong, even Northstar going mach three into a person exploded a "norm". Real people who have super strength? I beg to differ, hell I used to box for 5 years and getting hit by a person vastly stronger than you and not budging is damn near impossible. Especially right in the chest.

Yet her latest bio contradicts her old one.

Yet other handbooks greatly contradict the newest one. We know she doesn't just have normal strength, they even stated Guardian for the longest time had normal strength

Then untill we can get a definite resolution from Marvel about which strength is accurate we're never going to agree.
That won't happen, so we're not going to.
Can we leave it at agreeing to disagree.

That's fine with me.

What are superhuman abilities if they're not powers?

Look at Captain America feats, for example he threw a shield that caught up and hit a cruise missle after it was already lauched and he is just peak human. Have you seen the stuff he has done?

heh, some might say the whole series was a writers error
Besides, chances are he's dead now, eh?

I didn't mind him as a whole, just the direction they went about it

[Powersurge]

Regarding memory and skills; a person who can remember how, say, a deisel engine or a nuclear weapon is built can build one. In this case, memory = skill.

HTH and athletics work a bit different. One might remember how to do, say, a backflip, but if they lack the necessary tools, eg. strength, coordiantion, etc. they can't do one. It would be like trying to build a nuke without uranium or whatever.

Generally, having natural physical aptitude trumps technique. Not to dismiss the value of technique -- which can make a naturally gifted fighter incredibly awesome -- but there are many welltrained martial artists that couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. This is so because, despite their training, they simply lack the natural aptitude to apply it.

A person for instance might have a PhD in Physics, but that doesn't make them a Hawkings or an Einstein... or even top or middle of their graduating class.

I don't know all that much about the Plodex, save from early issues of vol.1, but I do remember that super-strength was one of their attributes. If they were attempting to mimic a person with super-strength this seems reasonable that said person had some degree of super-strength.

I think that good points were made regarding technology and magic, but I guess that since such "clones" demonstrated such powers that they were, as suggested, approximations.

While it is true that there are powerlifters that couldn't utilize anything approaching their full punch-power potential, you probably still wouldn't want to be hit by one of those guys... muchless by someone that can press over a 2000 lbs.

I would tend to think that even a weak punch from someone with low-grade superhuman strength would at least be able to drive a big strong man back. On the otherhand, real world physics don't necessarily hold up all that well in comicbooks. And whether or not a person could take the punch, while smiling, is very relative.

Some peple have chins of iron and can walk through even strong punchers. And of course, sometimes light weight can help deprive a punch of its power. Take swating an airborn fly for instances or kicking a cardboard box that isn't somehow rooted. Of course, it sound as if Jr. just took the punch without budging, so...

And, incidently, in what issue do we see MML Sr. hauling off and smacking Jr. in? To the best of my knoweldge, which is hardly vast, all we ever get is an implication, based on Jr.'s subjective memory at that.

Not that it is all that unrealistic considering what Stark said about pretty well all subjects of WWII super-solider experiments in his CW: Files, but it just seems to me, based on my scant knowledge admittedly, that people are out to paint MML Sr. as abusive based on very little evidence.

[Phil]

Thanks I know, but as stated the geothermal is far stronger than the E-M suit.

As stated in one place and contradicted in another.

Another handbook entry goes against fair training, saying she is a "master combat strategist". Also anyways fair does not mean bad, far from it actually

Never once said fair means bad, just that it doesn't mean super strength,

You would be wrong

Erm, I'd be wrong in not being impressed by a piece of fiction in a comic book?
So you have a spider-sense that tells you whenever I personally am impressed or not?
Is there a law written within the pages that says I have to be impressed by it just because you are?

Real people who have super strength?

Ding ding ding ding... we have an oxymoron...

Yet other handbooks greatly contradict the newest one.

She's only had 2 handbook entries in her geothermal suit, one that I've posted, one that you have - both of which contradict each other = stalemate.

That's fine with me.

Good.

Look at Captain America feats, for example he threw a shield that caught up and hit a cruise missle after it was already lauched and he is just peak human.

Erm... he's a super-soldier, with super strength from a super syrum.... ?

[-K-M-]

Never once said fair means bad, just that it doesn't mean super strength,

No you made that comment about how woman can't punch as hard as woman. We know she does have a form of super strength.

You would be wrong
Erm, I'd be wrong in not being impressed by a piece of fiction in a comic book?
So you have a spider-sense that tells you whenever I personally am impressed or not?
Is there a law written within the pages that says I have to be impressed by it just because you are?

No you said you could take a punch without even buding from a person vastly stronger than you. What you want to be impressed with is not of my concern. Basically your commenting on something I never even was commenting on.

Ding ding ding ding... we have an oxymoron...

Real people can't lift multiple tons.

She's only had 2 handbook entries in her geothermal suit, one that I've posted, one that you have - both of which contradict each other = stalemate.

I meant other areas such as abilities, and fighting skills. Which won't matter what armor you pick but they still contradict each other.

Erm... he's a super-soldier, with super strength from a super syrum.... ?

Nope handbooks once again state he is peak human, the serum only made him peak human at tops

[Phil]

No you made that comment about how woman can't punch as hard as woman.

Show me where I said that and I'll give you a billion dollars.

We know she does have a form of super strength.

ARGH! We don't at all!!!!

No you said you could take a punch without even buding from a person vastly stronger than you.

Once again, please re-read what I wrote carefully.
Never once have I mentioned me myself taking a punch personally.
And once again, we're at stalemate about Heather being stronger.

What you want to be impressed with is not of my concern.

So why did you say I was wrong to not be impressed;

Even if the Plodex clones were half the strength of the originals you still don't think what MMJ did was impressive?

No, I don't.

You would be wrong

....?

Basically your commenting on something I never even was commenting on.

See above.

Real people can't lift multiple tons.

Which backs up my point....

I meant other areas such as abilities, and fighting skills.

Neither of which would add anything to the strength of a punch and whether or not it would move MMLJ....

Which won't matter what armor you pick but they still contradict each other.

So we're still at stalemate?

Nope handbooks once again state he is peak human, the serum only made him peak human at tops

So MMLJ is a peak human as well, so he is on strength levels of Cap, both of which are shown in one set of handbooks to be stronger than Heather.
Which again, gives credit to MMLJ being able to take a punch from her...