Captian Arsehole-ica

[Powersurge]

I think people go overboard in blaming Iron Man for Goliath's death, like he somehow intended it. He clearly didn't intend it and both he and Reed, and pretty well all of the Pro-Regs were floored by the actions of the Clor.

I personally don't think that the death of a willing and able combatant can ever compare with the deaths at Stamford, but lotsa people seem more than happy to brush them aside and forget about them... along with all the other deaths that logic would suggest must have occurred whenever two supers, heroes or otherwise, went at it in Marvel history.

Proper training and extensive resources could go along way in protecting lives and property, but the Anti-Regs don't seem to want none of that. They want to throw down whenever, wherever, and agaisnt whomever they want, becasue, apparently, they are "above all that", "all that apparently meaning the average person whom they are supposed to be protecting.

My problem with Tony particularly, and even Reed, is that they are swallowing the SRA whole and without question. You might even say that they are cowering before it. Especially Reed.

The clone is just another weapon. As are the villains, who will at least make the fight easier, psychologically, for the Anti-Regs. Anyway, most of this stuff is, ultimately, on the head of the government, but a man in Stark's position could be doing WAY more in terms of pushing for reasonable ammendments to the SRA and securing offers of amnesty to those willing to submit to those reasonable ammendments. Likewise a man with Cap's charisma and personal resources.

But then, we wouldn't get to see all of these heroes throw down against each other, and what would be the fun in that? The biggest non-event of the year... Iron Man and Captain A shake hands, the SRA is promptly ammended, and everyone jsut... gets along. End of story. Would you buy THAT for a dollar?

[DelBubs]

If you work on the basic premise of the SRA, then there is no reason why people shouldn't sign up and on that alone Cap is an arsehole. Now for the but, the way the SRA has been implemented leads to my problems with it and is why I support Cap. The Warriors are responsible for the deaths of 600 at Stamford, wrong, Nitro and 'Damage Control' are responsible. Why isn't this being looked at. Speedball is having every basic human right abused and discarded, incarcerated without trial, abused by guards and inmates. She-Hulk and Stark are aware of the abuse and do nothing to stop it or register no complaints. Whatever right the SRA had at the beginning goes out the window when one persons rights are abused to achieve it.

"There is a saying... which many of us have heard since we were school children... "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied -- chains us all, irrevocably."

Sign up and become an operative of the government, or sign up and retire from heroing seems reasonable, but Cap and Luke Cage were not given that option, Cap was fired at before the act was legalised, Cage attacked seconds after it came into being. Where's the freedom of choice?

The premise of the SRA is good, the implementation is deplorable. Bill Foster killed by an uncontrollable clone which, as Stark told Urich in Frontline #6, will be exonerated of any wrong doing. (Nice to know the judicial system is unbiased and arbitrary) Speedball intered without basic rights. Psychopaths such as Venom, Lady Deathstrike and others used to go after former heroes. With all this going on and given his background, is it any wonder Captain America is behaving like he is? He might have been an arsehole for behaving like he did in the beginning, but given events that have followed, is he really being an arsehole now?

[Le Messor]

They want to throw down whenever, wherever, and agaisnt whomever they want, becasue, apparently, they are "above all that",

Like Del, I support the registration act that says, if you want to be a superhero, if you want to *fight* crime, sign up.

The SRA doesn't say that. It says, "If you have super powers, sign up (before any government offices could be open so you *could* sign up) or we'll come beating down your door in the middle of the night."

That's what Cap is fighting against.

Also, have you read the Civil War files? Speaking of arbitrary, how many pro-regs are listed as 'Real Name Unknown'? That kind of defeats the purpose, doesn't it? But Stark doesn't seem to care.

Del, Yay to the 'Drumhead' ref!

- Le Messor
"There is a line in the sand."

[kozzi24]

Yeah, the system...in which you don't mysteriously disappear in the middle of the night just for voicing your objections to a reigning regime or challenging existing laws. The one's that allow for growth and development, rather than trying vainly to hold things in unchanging stasis for all eternity....
Ones in which you don't get to voice dissent or challenge anything without winding up dead in some ditch. Where masked death squads don't roam about eliminating all opposition.

You are describing the Registration side quite clearly here. Laws in the US get changed or created basically for two reasons. One, reaction to something, like Stamford. Two, economic self interest of someone in office or an entity with effective lobbyists.

Independence has been achieved, for all intents and purposes without half the bloodshed. And slavery was abolished throughout the Commonwealths long before the USA did so.

The US was the first country to achieve independence, and the first to ever relinquish a subordinate country without bloodshed (I think the Philippines.) As far as I know, it is also the only country that allows its territories direct participation in the process. Puerto Rico gets to vote in Presidential elections without many of the obligations the states have to the federal government.

If you don't support the system, then the Constitution, a fundamental aspect of the US system, all of sudden doesn't mean all that much.

The constitution also assures fair trial and prohibits cruel and unusual punishment like life terms for not registering.

I never said that the Pro-Reg side was right, by default or otherwise. In fact, I said, and have been saying something far more moderate and complex. One need only pay attention.

A little snippy here, bud. While you didn’t say they were right, your arguments like those quoted above are the things that the guy you’re calling arseholica is standing against. With the threat of immediate arrest, he can’t quite just have a press conference, can he? He is in many ways the perfect symbol of exactly what you say about the extremes of the law. Don’t forget, Cap’s identity was public BEFORE the SRA.

Yes, there are certain particulars of the SRA that are entirely reasonable. And yes, their are certain particulars of the SRA that are simply outrageous.

The answer isn't to get all self-righteous, demonize the opposition and go to "war".

The answer would have been to surrender? Then forcibly join it and hunt down those who disagree with your “masters”...thus hunting down the people you agree with?

Re: McCarthyism; where is it today?

In the MU 616, RIGHT HERE!!

Slavery?

Forced to hunt others, ala Rachel Summers? RIGHT HERE.

Internment camps set up during various wars, and which probably seemed a pretty damn good idea at the time? Gone.

Not gone, in the negative zone, and there are detainees in this country at places like Quantanimo who would strongly disagree with you.

Non-rights for woman and other minorities? Gone. Etc, etc, etc.

Getting into political ideologies that debate this but that I will not get further into, there’s gay people who would disagree with your statement, many of them.

And I don't see the Pro-Reg side doing anything more immoral than the Anti-Reg side, and the kind of ethics and activities they are promoting.

The fight in CW 3 & 4 states otherwise. Cap’s side was trapped with a staged situation meant to draw out their heroic help-others tendencies. They were ambushed, with their means of escape–individual heroes such as Cloak–shot with tranquilizers. The fight itself aside, that’s not the American way to trap your audience. Freedom of speech includes the freedom to not listen.

They just happen to have alot more resources at their disposal. In fact, it is with the Pro-Regs, particularly She-Hulk, that we see the greatest efforts being made to oppose the worst parts of the SRA.

Really? Like She-Hulk’s delivery of the message to Speedball, “join us and this will all go away?” I don’t see her leaking to the media that he is being jailed not for Stamford, but because he will not yield his beliefs. She-Hulk is also not making any statement about the mass violation of the constitutional rights being trampled.

Cap is doing nothing. Nothing, save tacitly encouraging people to undermine the BEST parts of the SRA and one of the BEST systems on the Earth. A system that has affect change after change throughout the course of it's existence.

Cap is also not stomping on the heroes such as Cable and Stature who bow out of his side of the fight.

I think people go overboard in blaming Iron Man for Goliath's death, like he somehow intended it. He clearly didn't intend it and both he and Reed, and pretty well all of the Pro-Regs were floored by the actions of the Clor.

In American law, intent follows the bullet.

Proper training and extensive resources could go along way in protecting lives and property,

True...

but the Anti-Regs don't seem to want none of that.

..when there's no choice in the matter. Schooling is a requirement until age 16 in this country, but no one is forced at gunpoint by the government (their parents maybe) to stay in school for "life training" after that time.

They want to throw down whenever, wherever, and agaisnt whomever they want, becasue, apparently, they are "above all that", "all that apparently meaning the average person whom they are supposed to be protecting.
The throw down in CW 3 & 4 was arranged by the pro-reg side. Cap’s forces didn’t show up to fight, they showed up to help people. They realized it was a trap only when Vision traced the ownership of the stricken building...Stark. Nice that Stark believes in his idealogy enough to sacrifice his own (probably heavily insured) building. But will he be charged with arson for it as he should be?

Anyway, most of this stuff is, ultimately, on the head of the government, but a man in Stark's position could be doing WAY more in terms of pushing for reasonable ammendments to the SRA and securing offers of amnesty to those willing to submit to those reasonable ammendments.

And instead of pushing for reasonable amendments to the SRA and securing offers of amnesty, he is supervising the prison in the negative zone.

Unlike Tony, who can see the big picture -- something not all of us can sympathize with as easily as eating, breeding, deficate -- Cap is a great personal combatant and short-range strategist.

Very true here. He did also come across as a bit of an ass during Onslaught, when he simply stated “we can’t win” to the Wasp.

Unfortunately, he can't see beyond the tip of his nose, and is all too willing to manipulate, undermine responsible actions and one of the best systems in on the Earth, tacitly condone negligence, folly and murder, and is all too willing to resort to violence as his first and, apparently, only alternative when he does get his way 100% completely.

Fleeing the SHIELD agents who are firing on him is “too willing to resort to violence as his first and, apparently, only alternative”? How many of those SHIELD agents did he kill in his escape? I think Cap can see beyond the short term, in the abstracts that most people can’t while events are in motion. No one opposed giving Bush and the government broader powers when 9-11 was still fresh on our minds, but there’s a lot of opposition to those increased powers now that 9-11 is old news. Maybe Cap sees this? Maybe Cap doesn’t believe that the long-term “what’s best” opinion or speculation of an individual or minority groupING (based on opinion) should be imposed on the rest of the country by force? Or maybe Cap realizes that Hitler also had the long-term (1000-year) “best interest” of his people in mind when he started interring non Aryans?

Don’t forget: Cap’s status as propaganda poster-boy was why Iron Man wanted Cap on his side from the beginning. Iron man came down on Cap and Cage first because they were his friends in the Avengers, and Stark believes you should be supported by your friends whether you’re right or wrong. And anyone can ask Stark’s friends like James Rhodes how good a friend Stark is to you if the choice is Stark’s desires or your friendship. Cap can attest to this from the Captain-Iron Man interaction during Armor Wars. I wish I could remember more of the details of the Avengers schism in killing the Supreme Intelligence, because I think the Cap/Stark differences might also support argument.

[Powersurge]

Definitely a little bit snippy... bud. But only a little. It tends to happen when people interpret everything "said" from a dualistic standpoint, in which one side is entirely right and the other entirely wrong.

If people were paying attention to what I have been posting they would realize that I think both sides have their virtues and both sides have their faults. It's not all "angels and devils" to me.

The same goes for my thoughts about the system. There is no belief on my part that the the states of the West are perfect or infallable, but they are dynamic and allow for the oppurtunity of change. They have proven themselves capable of recognizing their shortcomings and overcoming them as a well *precedented* matter of fact.

So, it's not a question as to whether one supports every particular of every law on record. It's a question of whether one supports the system.

And no, speaking of snippy, bud, obviously Cap can't call for a public press conference. He can however get in contact with reporters, with lawmakers and politicians, with sympathetic Pro-Regs, just like rebels the world over, no? Or is Cap somehow hamstrung in comparison?

[Powersurge]

If you work on the basic premise of the SRA, then there is no reason why people shouldn't sign up and on that alone Cap is an arsehole. Now for the but, the way the SRA has been implemented leads to my problems with it and is why I support Cap. The Warriors are responsible for the deaths of 600 at Stamford, wrong, Nitro and 'Damage Control' are responsible. Why isn't this being looked at.

I disagree. If the reckless actions of either a private citizen or a recognised law enforcement official results in the death of an innocent person, they are equally responsible... by way of negligence.

It's the same if a police officer (or private citizen) engages in a high speed pursuit through a residential area, or goes charging into a hostate situations guns ablazing. If people die, they have their fair share of guilt to account for.

The negligence of Speedball and the New Warriors resulted in the Stamford Incident as certainly as Nitro and Damage Control. And Speedball doesn't even have enough compassion or sense of responsibility to express simple remorse over the matter... like he is guilt free.

Heck, when my rpg character, Powersurge's powers first manifested, he caused his own "little" Stamford Incident, massive explosion that killed many, many people He didn't have any foreknowledge of his powers, let alone of their capabilities, it just kinda happened one fine day... like a teens first zit blossoming on the tip of their nose. In the end, the courts even challked it up to the equivalent of an "Act of God". Nevertheless, there was no point at which he played Speedballs' "it-wasn't-my-fault" card, and he has been driven by remorse over this event ever since.

How could a person of conscience NOT feel remorse?

Maybe what's happening to Speedball bodes ill for others, who truly are blameless, but as for Speedball himself, I think that he is a sociopath who deserves whatever he gets.

[DelBubs]

So, it's not a question as to whether one supports every particular of every law on record. It's a question of whether one supports the system.

And no, speaking of snippy, bud, obviously Cap can't call for a public press conference. He can however get in contact with reporters, with lawmakers and politicians, with sympathetic Pro-Regs, just like rebels the world over, no? Or is Cap somehow hamstrung in comparison?

Cap isn't, but it would seem that the reporters are.

If you work on the basic premise of the SRA, then there is no reason why people shouldn't sign up and on that alone Cap is an arsehole. Now for the but, the way the SRA has been implemented leads to my problems with it and is why I support Cap. The Warriors are responsible for the deaths of 600 at Stamford, wrong, Nitro and 'Damage Control' are responsible. Why isn't this being looked at.

Maybe what's happening to Speedball bodes ill for others, who truly are blameless, but as for Speedball himself, I think that he is a sociopath who deserves whatever he gets.

If memory serves, it was Namorita who tackled Nitro, Speedball was otherwise engaged. Damage Control enhanced Nitro. Going on his previous exploits, he wouldn't have been able to annihilate a school. All Speedball is guilty off is association with the Warriors. Anyways, isn't it up to a jury to decide on Speedballs guilt? Ted Bundy, Manson etc etc, all sociopaths given fair trial, Once we start picking and choosing who is covered by the umbrella of the US Constitution then it's basic premise becomes null and void, doesn't it? Yes 600 people are dead and that is regretable, but using those deaths as an excuse to tread on human rights diminishes those deaths to my mind. The SRA is great as a concept, but it is to much of a tool for self serving people to exploit for their own ends.

All ideologies and ideas are brilliant in theory, but once they are put into practice and become tainted by the human element then they become an unworkable concept that leads to abuses. Power corrupts etc etc.

[Powersurge]

Very True. It is up to a jury to decide. Just like alot of things are up to the courts to decide.

But you have to admit it is kinda hypocritical to engage in vigilanteism and then hide behind the law.

No matter which way you cut, Speedball and the New Warriors are all guilty of neligence. As readers, we can see that. But yes, a court should be deciding this.

As for reporters, what has happened to said reporter? What about the Daily Bugle guy who challenged IM outright and face-to-face on certain issues?

Are reporters in war-torn parts of the Earth, governed by oppressive regimes, surrounded by a magical bubble that protects them from arrest, detainment, torture or execution? Of course they're not.

And Cap should know a thing or two by now about how to play the covert game and wage an ideological war.

And yet for all of his outrage, what, I ask, is he doing to change things?!?

[DelBubs]

Then again, it's a bit hypocritical to rely on vigilantiism for x amount of years and then declare the concept illegal and villify those who have laid their lifes on the line on numerous occasions. Plus to then tell them, oh by the way, cos you have super powers or are slightly outside the norm, you will now work for us on missions that we deem acceptable. Talk about your weapons of Mass Destruction. How long before S.H.I.E.L.D or the gov decide that to have Thor bopping through Baghdad would be a grand idea. What happens to concientious objection then ?

As for the Warriors, yeah, a jury of his peers should decide Speedballs fate, but that isn't happening. The gov are quite willing to forgive his part in Stamford if he is willing to sign up. As we have seen with the Thunderbolts, the gov are quite willing to forgive a lot to achieve their aims.

I'm not sure what is going to happen to Urich, but what is the female reporters crime. Whatever happened to anonimity of sources, freedom of the press. America is not an opressive regime, it is the leader of the free world, so torture, detainment etc should not be a factor.

As for Cap, yea he could be doing more to change things, but what real tools does he have to do so. The press would seem not to be an option, the public is still outraged by Stamford, so what Congressman or Senator is going to risk votes to side with him.

We are just a little over half way through the main book, Cap still has time to make his move. Then again after forty years of fighting for something, is he going to want to when everything he has fought for seems to have gone or become something he can't identify with?

[Powersurge]

Vigilantiism already was illegal. So is j-walking, but you don't see cops coming down on every j-walker.

Once again, I have sympathy for the Anti-Regs and their issues. Likewise, I can glean where Stark and Richards, and definitely their fellow Pro-Regs are coming from. Most certainly I can empathize with the general population.

One might ask though... who has been the more effective advocate of, say, the rights of Black Americans? A young Malcolm X, who took a hardline, or Dr.Martin Luthor King Jr., who took the path of Civil Disobedience, and continued to advance his cause from behind bars?

Both ended up murdered. A more mature Malcolm X was murdered by one of "his own". And I think that, as a result, King Jr. made the more lasting impression and di the greater good. Not to dis Mr.X. you gotta respect the guy... and his hardline was all about respecting the blackman.

I'll wait and see what Cap does, but so far he has done nothing. Likewise, I looking toward IM and Mr.Fantastic actually doing something constructive from their position of advantage. One good turn deserves another afterall.

[Le Messor]

The ones in which you don't mysteriously disappear in the middle of the night just for voicing your objections to a reigning regime or challenging existing laws.

Come to think of it, isn't that PRECISELY what the pro-SRAs, including Iron Man personally tried to do to Luke Cage?

Hell, he didn't even really challenge an existing law. He got dragged away (okay, not so much 'mysteriously disappear'ing) the minute the law got put in place.

- Le Messor
"At twenty years of age the will reigns; at thirty, the wit; and at forty, the judgment."
- Grattan

[Powersurge]

Good point.

Of course, is that what happened to She-Hulk when she took Speedball's case? Or Sue Richards when she saved an entire entourage of Anti-Regs?
Or any of the numerous Pro-Regs who have voiced doubt?

It just seems to me that both sides are all to willing to condemn folk otherwise known as HEROES... without thought or question, and with extremist zeal and with unquestioned belief in their own righteousness.

Someone's got to wise up sooner or later, and begin looking into things and doing something that is actually constructive.

[Mokole]

The SRA is a good idea for the Marvel Universe, but how they've implemented it is the problem.

If it were simply done as, "Sign up or stay home, get a real job", then no problem. Enforcement would be lawsuits against unregistered heroes, fines for breaking the SRA, and prison if they break the law like 3 times. So if Captain America doesn't sign and still works as Cap in the U.S., he can be sued by anyone who is in anyway harmed by his actions (Like robbers often sue home owners), he gets fined for flouting the law anyway, and imprisoned after that. Then heroes sign up to avoid the 'vigilante' tag they must get. "I'm a hero but a law unto myself" just won't fly anymore.

But in the Marvel SRA the pro-SRA people are cloning armies, allowing mass murderers out to help them stop people from being vigilantes. The old shotgun to kill a fly approach. That's why people are against the SRA, not because it's bad, but the application is. That's how Marvel wanted it, a good law with ridiculously flawed application so that they can still have heroes freely being vigilantes without negative connotations after all. So Damage Control and evil Nitro are responsible for the deaths in Stamford, no pro-SRA person is hurt/killed but anti-SRA people are, Prowler stops a robbery and goes to prison but Richards/Stark kill Goliath and face no negligence, manslaughter charges.

Think a police officer could shoot a rogue cop (who disagrees with a city council order to not use their guns) and walk away?

The SRA is obviously a good idea for a superhero universe but Marvel wants it clear that it can't be enforced properly and must be turned into a bad idea.

[Powersurge]

I appreciate your points and pov Mokole. I do disagree with a few particulars though and find others ambiguous at best.

The SRA in and of itself, and in it's entirerty, isn't perfect by any means. Forcing private citizens into service, at least under any circumstances other than a direct and imminent threat to the homeland, is not right IMO.

Having to register simply for possessing powers is something I am ambiguous on. I can see very good things that could come out of it, and many bad things.

It is of course clear that the government is being heavyhanded in it's implementation of the SRA, but I am inclined to think that it could be even more heavyhanded without the prescence of the Pro-Heroes.

Here is a question to ponder, regarding the morality of the Pro-Reg Heroes and their leaders; Who is responsible for, say, the use of nuclear weapons. The man who built the first atomic bomb? The men who turned the keys and performed the launch? Or the man or men that authorized it's use?

Is every German alive during WWII responsible for the actions of the Nazis? Only the common soldiers? The officers? Or the Gerenals and leaders of the Nazi regime?

If it is your duty to follow the leader and/or the system he/she represents with both loyalty and conscience, which it is, where does one's responsibility of the individual end and that of the leader begin? Is every order to questioned and examined in small detail prior to obeying or carrying it out?

If so, how would we ever get ANYTHING done?

Men, by which I reference genus, not gender, have to follow their conscience... even when that puts two friends on the wrong side of the equation. Tony and Reed believe, for whatever reasons, that what they are doing is the best for all. Likewise, Steve also believes that what he is doing is right and for the best of all.

Like I said before, it is easy to sympathise with the underdog... especially when they nothing approaching the resources of the opposition. And furthermore, when they have done NOTHING to produce constructive change in what they stand in opposition too. In short, they seem to lack both the resources and the *action* to even enter into the arena of right/wrong doing... cause they are doing no-thing.

But I think that what is important to remember is that these are ALL people of conscience and good intent... whether or not we can necessarily appreciate where they might be coming from at the moment.

Just a few thoughts...

[Le Messor]

The SRA in and of itself, and in it's entirerty, isn't perfect by any means. Forcing private citizens into service, at least under any circumstances other than a direct and imminent threat to the homeland, is not right IMO.
Having to register simply for possessing powers is something I am ambiguous on. I can see very good things that could come out of it, and many bad things.

Again, this, for me, is the divide. The SRA as originally presented was about private citizens who've volunteered into service. With which I have no problem.

The second, though, can only lead to bad; even if the theory is good. No way would man (genus) not misuse a law like that.

- LM
"Basically, the problem is this: You find yourself shot with an arrow. Do you try to find how the arrow was made, who shot it, and why? NO, you try to pull the thing out!"
- Buddha (paraphrased)