Captian Arsehole-ica

[Powersurge]

The other thread name, "Iron Jerk" keeps bothering me everytime I see it come up. So, since I finally realized what that A on Cap's face mask really stands for, I thought I'd make a counter-thread.

Why is Cap an arsehole?

Well, he is the poster-boy and facilitator of anonymous vigilanteism. He and his covet a right to anonymity under the smoke screen of the "right to privacy", believe that "right" should be extended to anyone self-righteous enough to act as judge and jury, and tacitly condone the mindless negligence of the vigilianteism who are as much to blame for the Stamford Incident (or any other super vs. super violence that has cliamed innocent life) as Nitro.

Furthermore, when his "fellow" heroes express any doubt about the righteousness of the Anti-Reg cause, clearly exercising their freewill and freedom of thought, he accuses them of not knowing a thing about freedom... using it like a politician for rhetorical purposes.

And really, what has Cap and his crew actually done to affect a change in the law? They do nothing to oppose the worst particualrs of the SRA, and do everything to undermine the best and most valid points of the SRA.

Thus why that A clearly stands for Arsehole. I know, I know, some might say that that is synonomous with "America", but when was the last time we saw mass exoduses out of the US or any other West multi-national state and into other countries?

Our resepective systems are the best the Earth has to offer, and allow for laws to be challenged, amended and even overturned. So, unless Cap plans on toppling the system and replacing it with something better -- and IMO anarchy is hardly better -- maybe he should at least support the system... or at least come up with a plan to affect change from within the system.

Hmmm... Cap. Anarchy? Cap. Arsehole? Either or I guess.

Not that Iron Man isn't acting a jerk himself, but Cap is acting quite the foolish jerk as well.

[Guardian]

He had a gun put to his head and was told to either follow the Registration Act and go after his friends or be arrested. BEFORE the act had even gone into effect. If he showed up anywhere and tried to "lobby" against the act he would immediately be arrested. Just because it was decided that if he didn't go along as a hunter of un-registered heroes, he would be a symbol against it.

Gee, if someone put a gun to my head and told me what I should do, I would have a problem.

All these heroes have been vigilantes. And Cap may have been a soldier and agent of the U.S. government, but he isn't there lap dog.

[Le Messor]

Gee, if someone put a gun to my head and told me what I should do, I would have a problem.

Most people would have a problem with that even before being told what they should do...

- Le Messor
So this guy put a gun to my head and told me I should change my pants...

[Powersurge]

Caps reaction to the gun to his head is one thing... something we can all sympathize with as easily as eating, breeding and deficating.

Thats not at issue.

Whats at issue is what he has been doing since.

Has he made any effort to draw on his resources and use his charisma to combat the SRA in an effective and heroic manner... by reaching out to useful and sympathetic Pro-Regs, reporters, lawyers, politicians.

Thats the problem with Cap. Unlike Tony, who can see the big picture -- something not all of us can sympathize with as easily as eating, breeding, deficate -- Cap is a great personal combatant and short-range strategist. Unfortunately, he can't see beyond the tip of his nose, and is all too willing to manipulate, undermine responsible actions and one of the best systems in on the Earth, tacitly condone negligence, folly and murder, and is all too willing to resort to violence as his first and, apparently, only alternative when he does get his way 100% completely.

The gun to his head arguement only carries water so far and for so long.

[Le Messor]

..undermine responsible actions one of the best systems in on the Earth...

Political systems, you mean?

Are you talking about the way, once every four years, two political parties each choose an incompetent and / or malicious idiot to parade in front of us and tell us to vote for one so we can believe we have some sort of freedom or democracy?

Yeah, we have that here in Australia, too.

- Le Messor
"A nickel isn't worth a dime today."
- Yogi Berra (attrib)

[Powersurge]

Yeah, the system, like the one in Australia. The ones in which you don't mysteriously disappear in the middle of the night just for voicing your objections to a reigning regime or challenging existing laws. The one's that allow for growth and developement, rather than trying vainly to hold things in unchanging stasis for all eternity.

But perhaps the systems in place in the Middle East or North Korea are more to some peoples likings? One's in which you don't get to voice dissent or challenge anything without winding up dead in some ditch. Where masked death squads don't roam about elminating all opposition.

The systems of the multinational states of the West (and Australia). The BEST systems on Earth. At least by measure against reality and not some idealized set of abstract standards.

If you don't support the system, then the Constitution, a fundamental aspect of the US system, all of sudden doesn't mean all that much.

[Powersurge]

Heck, as Commonwealth states, or former Commonwealth states, we should realize far better than the Yanks that there are other alternatives than violence. Independence has been achieved, for all intents and purposes without half the bloodshed. And slavery was abolished throughout the Commonwealths long before the USA did so. And once again without half the bloodshed.

Not that any Western multi-national state is perfect, but that is an acknowledged part of the system... the rule of precedent.

[Le Messor]

Yeah, the system, like the one in Australia. The ones in which you don't mysteriously disappear in the middle of the night just for voicing your objections to a reigning regime or challenging existing laws.

Ah, McCarthyism. I remember it well...

The systems of the multinational states of the West (and Australia).

(Don't worry about all that typing. Australia counts as The West, at least in terms of society.)

If you don't support the system, then the Constitution, a fundamental aspect of the US system, all of sudden doesn't mean all that much.

And, if you don't live in the US, it means even less.

- Le Messor
Of course US rights are only for the rich. It's called a BILL of rights, isn't it?

[Transmetropolitan]

Yeah, the system, like the one in Australia. The ones in which you don't mysteriously disappear in the middle of the night just for voicing your objections to a reigning regime or challenging existing laws. The one's that allow for growth and developement, rather than trying vainly to hold things in unchanging stasis for all eternity.

Oh, you mean the one where Tony and Reed send people into the Negative Zone for life without a trial? For doing, you know, nothing but what you just mentioned? Voicing dissent?

Why not ask Prodigy about the system? All he was doing was voicing protest (admittedly ina drunken and incoherent manner), and Iron man showed up, smacked him down, and carted him off.


YOur appeal to real-world systems falls flat in the face of what is being done by the pro-reg side.

And for the record, yes, Cap is acting like an arrogant jackass. That doesn't make the other side right by default.

Of course, I'm with Ben Grimm on the whole "civil war..."

[Powersurge]

I never said that the Pro-Reg side was right, by default or otherwise. In fact, I said, and have been saying something far more moderate and complex. One need only pay attention.

Yes, there are certain particulars of the SRA that are entirely reasonable. And yes, their are certain particulars of the SRA that are simply outrageous.

The answer isn't to get all self-righteous, demonize the opposition and go to "war".

Re: McCarthyism; where is it today? Gone. Slavery? Gone. Internment camps set up during various wars, and which probably seemed a pretty damn good idea at the time? Gone. Non-rights for woman and other minorities? Gone. Etc, etc, etc.

You have the system to thank for that... not to mention people of great enough character and integrity to work within it to affect change.

Look at other parts of the planet where centuries old conflicts are still raging today with so much zeal that you would think they just began yesterday. Other parts of the planet where masked death-squads roam about enforcing their will through the muzzle of a gun. Where people are regularly kidnapped, forcibly confined with no hope or even concept of a fair trial, murdered and even tortured for extended periods of time.

Just cause the Anti-Regs happen to be the underdog, with everyone's favourite propaganda symbol as their posterboy, doesn't make them right by default.

And I don't see the Pro-Reg side doing anything more immoral than the Anti-Reg side, and the kind of ethics and activities they are promoting. They just ahppen to have alot more resources at their disposal. In fact, it is with the Pro-Regs, particularly She-Hulk, that we see the greatest efforts being made to oppose the worst parts of the SRA.

Cap is doing nothing. Nothing, save tacitly encouraging people to undermine the BEST parts of the SRA and one of the BEST systems on the Earth. A system that has affect change after change throughout the course of it's existence.

[Le Messor]

I figure I should drop out of this debate.

I'm hoping everyone's still feeling good about each other, but also that I'll eventually put my fut (a word which here means 'foot') in it if I keep it up too long.

- Le Messor
"At this distance they couldn't hit the broad side of a ba"
- last words of some Southern Civil War general (attrib)

[Powersurge]

Oh, and lets not fail to overlook the quitessential essence of heroism... selflessness.

The system wrongs some non-super-powered minority or individual. Where is Cap? The system wrongs mutants. Where is Cap? The system comes knocking on Cap's door... and ka-boom, it's all of a sudden evil and immoral.

Some hero.

And what about the super-powered factor? It's not like these are ordinary people here, without means of self-defense.

Some heroes.

One might very well postulate that, without a bunch of conscientious Pro-Reg heroes backing the government, said government could come down far harder on the superbeing community. Trained killers, live-ammo, super-soliders, mandroids, Sentinels.

I'll say this though... when Thor returns and finds out that someone's been messing with his rep, ie. Clor, it's going to be a bad day to be a Pro-Reg.

[Powersurge]

I figure I should drop out of this debate.

I'm hoping everyone's still feeling good about each other, but also that I'll eventually put my fut (a word which here means 'foot') in it if I keep it up too long.

No worries Le Messor. I like a good debate, and like to argue my case with passion... especially when it is a perspective that goes beyond your more common dualistic perceptions and arguements, but in the end we are really talking about a comicbook scenario. Sure, it draws in real world stuff, but I'm pretty sure no one would chose the middle East or North Korea over what we have in the West. Sure, they'll ***** and complain, but as always, they'll vote with their feet.

[Le Messor]

I'm pretty sure no one would chose the middle East or North Korea over what we have in the West.

I know I wouldn't.

[Guardian]

What I don't understand is that Tony and his goons have done nothing to be rational or anything. Arresting people without out due process and throwing them in jail. Blackmailing to get people to join the Pro-Reg side. Obviously breaking the law by cloning a person, a god no less. Killing a so called friend. Employing known criminals, murders and pyschopaths. Venom, Bullseye, BZ and the such.
It seems to me that the Pro-Reg side is manipulating and not using responsible actions.

And I just thought I'd throw this in here as well. This is what I think in a nutshell.