Canada's RESOURCES?

[bigbloo]

So long as we, as citizens, lack scope and focus in our perception of national issues, we serve as tools for the politicians -- rather than the politicians serving us.

And yes, we're probably going to bore people to death again. On the other hand, I think these discussions of ours provide a pretty distinct view of our nation for curious readers from outside.

I really appreciate the discussion. Ever since I started reading Alpha I've always been interested in Canada and this is a good way of learning a bit more about the place where my favorite heroes originated.

Thanks you guys for taking all this time to answer.

[Northcott]

I really appreciate the discussion. Ever since I started reading Alpha I've always been interested in Canada and this is a good way of learning a bit more about the place where my favorite heroes originated.

Thanks you guys for taking all this time to answer.

I'm just glad that Sylvie and I aren't boring people to death. Before work ate me up I was a political junkie, always keeping an eye on what the people in power were up to, and sometimes predicting their moves ahead of time based on their philsophies and what seemed to be efficient strategies. I'm also a nut for history and cultural studies. So living in this place, which is really just a giant mish-mash of many cultures, provides someone like me with dizzying opportunities.

[syvalois]

Ah, Mitsou is a good example of what an Aurora should be.

Agreed! She was my inspiration when thinking about that character.

Musically, though, I can't say that I'm grabbed by either her or Blue Rodeo. That's why I made the "easier on the eyes" comment. The sound just didn't do it for me. I've found her show for CBC, Au Courant, to be very informative.

Well, only her first and second album are well known, the rest pretty much went unoticed. And I was not talking about her as a singer, but as a person, she can say very interesting things.

Af for that show there was a polemic about it. Like why gave that segment to an entertainer when it's a journalistic job. There was a lot more people here capable of doing that like Nathalie Petrowski but it was said Mitsou was choosen because she was eyes candy.

Speaking of Nathalie Petrowski, you got to see the movie based on her novel "Maman last call" with Patrick Huard and Sophie Lorrain. That is a really good movie.

Funny, you only know Mitsou because of a CBC show...

Your comment about only knowing that they're not American being if you're told that... well, that pretty much holds true of any celebrity. Their state of being is not impacted by your not knowing... if that makes any sense.

euh, no. I don't understand. I mean I can say without been told that Ewan McGregor is not american, I can hear it. But I don't see the difference in northern americans and canadians. Ok, I'm not the best at this game since I've got an hard times understanding Newfoundlander accent to the general canadian accent unless I've got an exemple of each in front of me. And I mean, I'm not the only one.

The comment about disconnect of Pop Culture is a specific reference: there's a gap in the perception of elements of pop culture. That which is modern, current, and transient doesn't carry over well between the cultures in Canada because of various language barriers -- though this is noticeably less with most cultural groups, as they maintain two languages. It still exists, however.

I don't follow you there. But how come I know american pop culture and I don't know yours? or you don't know mine? Yes, I know why you don't know mine, it's in french and you don't speak it. But do I know american pop culture because it's been translated or for another reason? (asking the question to you and to myself there).

I don't know but for an outsider Canada is pretty much the US but nicer (that's what I've been told by an englishman). The problem with Canada english canada I mean, is that it do not have a distinctive voice compare to the US pop culture. Too much of the american pop culture comes from canadians, so nothing left for the people staying inside the country to do a distinctive things. And worst of all, you end up with canadian production that look like american wannabees. Why we see canadians defining themselves more as what they are not compared to the US (See the Molson canadian ads)? An inferiority complexe to the american, yes, I can see it with AF also. But why? Economical domination by the US?

In this website The Great Canadian Guide to the Movies (and TV) the guy been trying to find for ages why it's like that in Canada. But most of the subject and query he's got don't concern francophone Quebec.

Yes, pop culture for me is very important as defining who I am. Because that pop culture is supposed to be a reflect of who we are and I can see this in many tv series and film done here.

But I agree, It's not everything.It's also food, religion, history, philosophy, school, economic activities etc. The list can be long. We should do a list and try to fill it with what we consider being our culture.

Pop culture is not the be-all and end-all of our society or our national identity, however. And thank goodness for that. The deeper roots of who we are as a nation tends to be uniform -- with an accent on "tends to be". There are, of course, differences. The political gulf between Alberta and Quebec is remarkably vast, for example...

But what is our national identity? What do you find national about Canada? Maple sirup? There is no sugar maple in the west, no sugar shack. As some westerner said once, if Québec separate, Canada should change there flag since the majority of the maple sirop are made in Québec. But again, that leaf is maybe not a sugar maple.

I can say what is my Quebec identity(maybe not clearly but it shine in me and I've got a good idea), but as a canadian it's obscur, I got one somewhere, I know that, but it's not strong and I can't say what it is. I know I feel canadian because quebec is an integrale part of Canadian history, I know I like the peaceful approche, but most of those stuff can be attributed to occidental country too. Health care is seen in France and Great britain too (they also have similar problems than we do).

which is, I suppose, why watching the Seperatists work hand-in-hand with Harper's inner circle blows my mind. They really couldn't be farther apart in their beliefs, save perhaps in the desire to decentralize the power of national government to the point of ineffectuality. (But this doesn't quite hold true when Harper himself is in power, of course)

What's wrong with decentralizing the central power? At would ensure Quebec to stay in Canada. That's what many separatist wants. It Ottawa was to give to the province more powers, they would stay in Canada. My dad would actually, he said so.

??? We are at it again!

It's ON, girlfriend! [/quote]

We should really move this topic to another section and name it like "The never ending argument.

I never said there was 2 solitudes, I agree there are more in that way, don't forget native and I mean all of them.

Can't forget 'em. I lived on a rez and have the scars to remember it by. Horrid place, lovely land. And no, you didn't refer to the Two Solitudes specifically in this case, but you once again fell back on defining things as "English speaking Canada" thinking one thing, and Quebec thinking another -- a binary worldview. One and zero. Two solitudes in all but name.

Maybe, but maybe you would understand better if you could see the shows I see, the news and everything reported directly in french to really see without a translator who is changing a little bit the message, maybe you would understand better. Maybe not also. I must say I like Canada, thinks it's a great country and all, but when canadians talk in forum and other places and say we canadians... Well, in many places that do not apply to me and that leaves me with the feeling that I'm not canadian.

Ok, I must admit that the core being of my identity comes from being francophone, living in a majority of francophone in north america. Anything outside that is another culture to me. Acadians are another culture to me. I've got links to it, they are like cousins, like the french are to us. And I must admit Quebecers have not always been nice to acadians.Many have the same reproach as quebecers do about english canadians.

My point is that it does no good to avoid the term unless you avoid the pattern of thought and/or communication. To claim that all of English-speaking Canada holds a singular opinion on any matter is a grotesque over-simplification.

Can you repete that in simplier terms, if you don't I will start to answer in french, I've got an hard time figuring a good translation sometimes.

Even in your own province; it can't be denied that the political atmosphere of Montreal is at all similar to northern Quebec, where the Seperatists hold strongest sway (if I recall correctly).

I would not say the north. See for yourself :
province map
Montreal region


[quote]I certainly don't watch French-speaking CBC -- I wouldn't understand enough to make it worth my while (which bugs me). But I do try to keep up on news pertaining to Quebec as much as I do any other province. To have a sense of the national scene requires an effort in that direction. So long as someone chooses to think regionally, they'll remain on that track. An overall view of the nation will never develop for those who don't seek it, and that holds true whether they live in Quebec, the Yukon, or Nova Scotia.[quote]

True again, but I like to watch the news mostly in Radio-Canada because they are the most neutral. But even them don't talk much about the west. And they don't report the same way that the CBC do. To give you an idea, it's a joke from about 15/20 years ago, a very popular group in Quebec named RBO made this joke. Not the best and they go a little bit over the top, but the separatist and french name pronounciation do sound true even tho it's also exagerated. And I do have the choice to watch the news in both language, which you don't have. (that was a little bit mean, hein?)

The feeling is valid, but it's important to understand that it's one based on the choice of isolation, and that you're not alone in chosing that isolation. The same thing occurs in other provinces. Alberta's been the most notorious over the last two to three years, I'd say -- chiefly because of certain political currents informing the flow of information rather than the other way around (both inside Alberta and out).

Isolation to the rest of Canada, yes maybe, that is the case but not to the rest of the world. I went to other countries, Gabon, Russia, France, Breat Brittain (Scotland actually), Colombia. I've seen many provinces (for a week end mostly) and I do still think the same. The canadian identity is to obscur to me.

As for questioning what it means when one's perception of modern culture is unknown to another demographic -- that's a good one. It's also a widespread one, though rarely framed in that way. But it's a problem that spans not only the many, many other cultural groups in the nation, but traditionally divides age groups as well. Let's face it: pop culture always has been, and always will be, somewhat divisive because of its transitory nature. To see what makes the foundation of what we are, we need to look at more enduring trends.

Like Aurore ? Séraphin? Le Survenant? Maurice Richard? Or if you like The Beatles, Elvis Presley, the Monthy Pythons? The first names I gave you are all movies recently made based on the collective memory.

You know the story of Aurore, I like to make the link to our AF Aurora.

What such politicians fail to mention is that it was the Federal government, under Trudeau's guidance, that pushed heavily for the development of the oil sands, and put up millions upon millions of dollars (in the late 1960's, when a million dollars was an obscene amount of money) to help that province launch the development of the oil fields that are now responsible for it's remarkable prosperity.

That's what I like about our discussions, I'm learning stuff.

So long as we, as citizens, lack scope and focus in our perception of national issues, we serve as tools for the politicians -- rather than the politicians serving us.

I don't totally agree on this. I agree, we must see the big picture, but sometimes to act the more effectively, is to go directly to the source. As for Quebec identity/want of separation, it's not only politicians that talk about it. No, not only politicians. See this

Ouf! It's taking really to much time for me to answer that and I'm sure it's all confused and not clear and repeating myself. Anyway, you get it that way. Ed, are you sure other people are reading this? I'm sure Oeming left a long time ago thinking we are crazy.

Ok, just for fun, I'm giving a link to RBO satire at quebecois and americans. It's mean for both groups.
there


Also here an quebec history (part 1 & 2) seen by RBO, they do include the acadian deportation, which never was part of Quebec, but eh, what the...
part1
part2

[syvalois]

Quote:
Even in your own province; it can't be denied that the political atmosphere of Montreal is at all similar to northern Quebec, where the Seperatists hold strongest sway (if I recall correctly).


I would not say the north. See for yourself :
province map
Montreal region

Oups, ok, not really understandable here. This a map of the 95 referendum result. I thnk it's pretty representative of the opinion.

[SephirothsKiller]

Oups, ok, not really understandable here. This a map of the 95 referendum result. I thnk it's pretty representative of the opinion.

Current opinion or past opinion?? I really think that this discussion is a bit too much "seperatist" related right now though. Don't wanna give Oeming the impressiong that Canada is made up of people obsessed with it. Its really not even that big an issue right now...

I haven't read all the posts but the one thing I wanna make clear about Canada to you Mr. Oeming is that its heavily regionalized. What that means is that not only do Quebecers often see themselves as Quebecers first, under the umbrella of Canadianism, but the rest of Canada sees themselves the same way.
To give a simplified explaination: Newfoundlanders are extremely proud of their roots, as are Maritimers, (go us!) and Ontarians, Prarie dogs, Northerners, and British Colomians, and Albertans (and of course Le Quebecois.) We all make fun of each other, and each of these areas has a very distinct way of doing thing compared to the rest of Canada.

The best example would be British Colombia and Alberta.

Alberta is the most conservative place in Canada, (and the richest,) yet its next door neighbour has long been known for its liberal views (and high level of physical fitness.) If pot were suddenly legalized in BC it would be its number one industry. Vancouver is also tied with Oslo as the worlds best city to live in.

Hmmm... I suggest doing some Ethnography Mr. Oeming. (Go live for six months in the province which OF will be headquartered in.) It'll help show you the difference in cultures between U.S. and Canadian.

[Transmetropolitan]

To be fair, there's a heavy amount of regionalism stateside, too. zRussia? They've got it too. Hell, Germany has regionalistic cultural differences.

It's true of any country.
And conveniently ignored whenever a writer, director, what have you isn;t from the nation in question.

[syvalois]

To be fair, there's a heavy amount of regionalism stateside, too. zRussia? They've got it too. Hell, Germany has regionalistic cultural differences.

It's true of any country.
And conveniently ignored whenever a writer, director, what have you isn;t from the nation in question.

So true even Holland got it.

[syvalois]

[quote="SephirothsKiller"]

Current opinion or past opinion??

the shades and pourcent may change a little but I would say it do not change much. I mean in the big picture. But people are not ready for another referendum, They don't like the statue quo either, people are waiting for something new, or God, I don't know. I would say without a big survey that about 40% of the population is a fencesitter (I think it's the term) and that fencesitter consider themselves quebecer first and somewhere maybe Canadians, but for most it's a bipolar view. Like when bon Cop, bad cop came out, the newspapers where asking if the movie would do as good in the ROC. Which I learned meant : rest of Canada.

I really think that this discussion is a bit too much "seperatist" related right now though. Don't wanna give Oeming the impressiong that Canada is made up of people obsessed with it. Its really not even that big an issue right now...

Sorry, you are right. even tho some are really obsessed with it, but I agree, it's not the majority. But it is part of the picture. I just want to say, it's not evil, it's a point of view, to agree or disagree on.

I haven't read all the posts but the one thing I wanna make clear about Canada to you Mr. Oeming is that its heavily regionalized. What that means is that not only do Quebecers often see themselves as Quebecers first, under the umbrella of Canadianism, but the rest of Canada sees themselves the same way.

That's interesting. I never really got that impression before except from Newfoundlanders. In a way it makes more sense to me. Why a federal gouv less powerfull would be maybe better. We may ask the Brits what they think of their system or the US since they seem to have more state powers (from what I was told).

[SephirothsKiller]

[quote="syvalois"]

I haven't read all the posts but the one thing I wanna make clear about Canada to you Mr. Oeming is that its heavily regionalized. What that means is that not only do Quebecers often see themselves as Quebecers first, under the umbrella of Canadianism, but the rest of Canada sees themselves the same way.

That's interesting. I never really got that impression before except from Newfoundlanders. In a way it makes more sense to me. Why a federal gouv less powerfull would be maybe better. We may ask the Brits what they think of their system or the US since they seem to have more state powers (from what I was told).

Yah. I know a teacher who has taught all across Canada and almost every time he asks a class whether they consider themselves to be say, maritimers, (Newfoundlanders, etc,) first or Canadians, he almost always gets the response of maritimers. I don't think its as extreme as Quebec, where its Quebec first, and Canada maybe. And in Newfoundland its sort of the fact that they didn't even join Canada until 1948, and were heavily isolated from the rest of english Canada by a big piece of Quebec.

I'm not sure if I would want heavy provincial independance though, as I think that our country is pretty much built on the "umbrella culture." Take Toronto, where you have entire villages worth of people where people can only speak Polish. Or Vancouver, where you have a towns worth of people who can only speak Cantonese.

Is it true that there's a mass outflow of Anglophones out of Quebec right now because it looks like the Liberals won't win the election? Thats what my friend from Montreal told me.

There's definately some merit to the arguement of Quebecer's wanting to leave though, who would want to stay when we have Prime Minister-
I'm gonna stop now before I voice some strong opinons.

[syvalois]

I'm not sure if I would want heavy provincial independance though, as I think that our country is pretty much built on the "umbrella culture." Take Toronto, where you have entire villages worth of people where people can only speak Polish. Or Vancouver, where you have a towns worth of people who can only speak Cantonese.

I don't understand what ou mean by "umbrella culture" or the explaination you gave. Sorry

Is it true that there's a mass outflow of Anglophones out of Quebec right now because it looks like the Liberals won't win the election? Thats what my friend from Montreal told me.

I really don't think so. People are really not happy with Charest, but the PQ is not in such a good state either and I'm not talking the ADQ or Québec solidaire (the new to much to the left party). And if they are afraid of the PQ been in power, they should have left like 30 years ago.

We all know that the PQ even if he wins can't declare independance without a referendum. So we just elect them because they have a better political agenda and we don't want another Duplessis rules, it lead to corruption. Don't you agree?

[SephirothsKiller]

I'm not sure if I would want heavy provincial independance though, as I think that our country is pretty much built on the "umbrella culture." Take Toronto, where you have entire villages worth of people where people can only speak Polish. Or Vancouver, where you have a towns worth of people who can only speak Cantonese.

I don't understand what ou mean by "umbrella culture" or the explaination you gave. Sorry

Basically what I'm getting at is that I think it might be odd to give alot of independance to various places, since Canada is multicultural to the point where weakening national ties could really hurt the country. Personally I think that if increasingly independant provinces is the answer they will evolve through our very flexible constitution.

I really don't think so. People are really not happy with Charest, but the PQ is not in such a good state either and I'm not talking the ADQ or Québec solidaire (the new to much to the left party). And if they are afraid of the PQ been in power, they should have left like 30 years ago.

We all know that the PQ even if he wins can't declare independance without a referendum. So we just elect them because they have a better political agenda and we don't want another Duplessis rules, it lead to corruption. Don't you agree?

Yah I do totally agree. I always figured that the PQ had to be elected for something other than sovereignty. Never heard of the solidaire though. What are they? A semi-communist separitist party?

[syvalois]

Basically what I'm getting at is that I think it might be odd to give alot of independance to various places, since Canada is multicultural to the point where weakening national ties could really hurt the country. Personally I think that if increasingly independant provinces is the answer they will evolve through our very flexible constitution.

what national ties? What I'm afraid is when the federal get involve in stuff that are of provincial autority and they do it too often.

Never heard of the solidaire though. What are they? A semi-communist separitist party?

Like they say in their webpage, it's a political party born form the fusion of option citoyenne et UFP, based on ecological, left and feminist value.

The old leaders of each mouvement is now what they call a "porte-parole"and they are Françoise David and Amir Khadir. And yes, they are also for the sovereignty. But I must admit they are a little bit too much on the left side for me.

[SephirothsKiller]

Basically what I'm getting at is that I think it might be odd to give alot of independance to various places, since Canada is multicultural to the point where weakening national ties could really hurt the country. Personally I think that if increasingly independant provinces is the answer they will evolve through our very flexible constitution.

what national ties? What I'm afraid is when the federal get involve in stuff that are of provincial autority and they do it too often.

I don't follow. Since when did the federal government have anything to do with controlling Quebec? Education, Health Care, and pretty much everything else. The only times that government interferes is when it gives out money. And while I don't necessarily agree with that, its not that big a deal. Hell, the government doesn't even seem to interfere when a province violates the charter.

But whatever, I was going on about how I think the discussion is too sovereignty related, and now I'm debating it. No more!

[syvalois]

I don't follow. Since when did the federal government have anything to do with controlling Quebec? Education, Health Care, and pretty much everything else. The only times that government interferes is when it gives out money. And while I don't necessarily agree with that, its not that big a deal. Hell, the government doesn't even seem to interfere when a province violates the charter.

But whatever, I was going on about how I think the discussion is too sovereignty related, and now I'm debating it. No more!

Lol, I was going to say that for the other subject. For that one, I don't think it's too sovereignty related, we may redefine Canada here and make an agreement so Québec can stay in Canada, no? No separation involved !

I was talking about stuff like the millenium scholarship, where education is not the federal gouv juridiction. And other more sensible things.

[SephirothsKiller]

Lol, I was going to say that for the other subject. For that one, I don't think it's too sovereignty related, we may redefine Canada here and make an agreement so Québec can stay in Canada, no? No separation involved !

I was talking about stuff like the millenium scholarship, where education is not the federal gouv juridiction. And other more sensible things.

Yah you do make a bunch of valid points... And I for one know perfectly well the woes of scholarship troubles. Federal ones are rediculous, and my government doesn't havy any. I almost wish the feds would get involved because the N.S. school system is atrocious, and our provincial government does nothing about it.

Add that to the fact that my province has the highest tuition and I'm screwed. I kept begging my parents to buy like a square foot of land in Quebec so we could qualify for the Quebecer tuition price.