Alpha Flight Villains

[syvalois]

I for one couldn't stand Manbot in V2, but I wouldn't want to see him killed or decommissioned or whatever they'd do with him(it).

I usually forgot Manbot existed.

[darc_light]

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:58 am Post subject:

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I thought Omega 2 was far too derivative of other Alpha villains
Miss Mass as Pink Pearl
Bile as Pestilence
Sinew as Wild Child
And that is one of the very few criticisms I had of Furman's run

I actually mistook Sinew for Wildchild while I was searching for an Avatar in the forum's gallery...

It's funny, there are a lot of feral characters: Wildchild, Wolverine, Sabretooth, Wolfsbane, Wildside, Feral, Thorn, Etc, etc, etc...But the only one I really like is Kyle. Wolverine's too dark for my tastes, Sabretooth is evil incarnate (No, wait, Val Cooper is evil incarnate...), Feral is evil, I think, and I don't know anything about the others.

I guess it's Kyle's development while he was with X-Factor and his sense of humor despite all he's been through that makes him my favorite. Even at his most evil, he's got a good heart in there, he just can't get at it, can't control himself. He's a tragic figure. I think thats also why I like Wyre, they're both people trying to better themselves while being manipulated by others and they're own madness...

[DelBubs]

Highlight to read, possible spoilers
Manbot has been reprogrammed and is now a Washer/Dryer in the Department H laundry. He had to be good for something.

[Tawmis]

The characters weren't handled well and the storyline was ill conceived.That could be said about every character in every comic stable I'm sure. I doubt Iron Man, Wolverine, Spider-man, Superman, Batman, Spawn, etc. have always been characterized perfectly. I'm sure we can all site an arc in which they too sucked. That however doesn't make the character a dead end. A good writer might be able to fabricate a story that we'll all love about a character we all dislike.

This is true (and I agreed with my statement) - which is why for myself - I said I'd be disappointed to see Llan EVER appear again ANYWHERE in the Marvel Universe unless he got a SERIOUS overhaul.

But along those lines you said a good writer making a character that we can love... I would say this is exactly what happened with folks like ALPHA FLIGHT, NEW WARRIORS and even THUNDERBOLTS.

The first two teams (ALPHA FLIGHT and NEW WARRIORS) are made up of characters that had such minimal development. But the writers who took those characters really fleshed them out and made them incredible and memorable.

And for the THUNDERBOLTS, they took villains (who, come on, never really star in comics so are rarely developed, other than showing up to fight - other than some like Magneto and what not) - but they took these villains (who for the most part are not 'powerhouses' or even OVERLY popular back in their days) - and made them into one of the greatest comics currently.

I'm defineitely not a reader who likes to see characters needlessly killed off.

For me it depends... for example, killing off Cable, Rachael Summers, X-Man, these are all deaths I could deal with just to clear up some of the messy continuity that has polluted Marvel.

[-K-M-]

If Lionel Jeffries comes back (and I'm aware of it before-hand), I will not buy the book. There is no way Lionel should have gotten off the battlefield, after trying to graft living and dead people. He is an unspeakable abomination.

If he's brought back, you can have him.

That's the point isn't it? he's a villian, and you would seriosuly not buy the book if he reappeared? now that's drastic.

I'm dead serious. All of Alpha Flight was treated like they didn't have an ounce of brains during this "story arc." Northstar, who should have been the resident skeptic, doesn't even entertain the thought of going to any other doctor besides Lionel; Heather [though touched by Scramble after being "cured" by Madison, so I'm beginning to understand how it happened] doesn't even consider finding Shaman (hell, how about the second-best surgeon in Canada) to help Puck, Northstar, or Roger? Yes, I know Shaman was getting all out-of-character due to the Coronet, but what doctor knows most of these super-people better than Shaman?

The Master used a Scramble-enzyme to augment himself. Why? The Master put himself back together after being completely vivisected. He's had 40,000 years to get a complete understanding of anatomy, and #96
(the same issue he uses the enzyme), The Master states that he knows his own body very well (or something like that).

I don't think it's all that drastic. It's not a story or story-arc I'm interested in reading. Scramble's story has been told, and in my opinion it wasn't told very well, it wasn't told very plausibly, it wasn't told very logically, and it wasn't told with anything that could be considered respect for---let alone knowledge of---who Alpha Flight really is.

Oh you meant the book as in issue, I thought you mean drop Omega Flight entirely.

Also new writer opens up new possibilities, don't discredit a character the way he was handled. As for all we know he could be one of the best characters in the series, you never know.

[-K-M-]

Eh? Where was this? I'd love to check that out.

Discussed breifly in Alpha Flight #108, origin issue Invaders #2

[Tawmis]

Eh? Where was this? I'd love to check that out.

Discussed breifly in Alpha Flight #108, origin issue Invaders #2

Ooooooh. Okay. Right. I remember that. I thought it was something OUTSIDE of ALPHA FLIGHT's arc during some Invaders arc (because didn't Marvel do a small run of Invaders in the last two years?) - I thought you were saying it was happening during that time.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Also new writer opens up new possibilities, don't discredit a character the way he was handled. As for all we know he could be one of the best characters in the series, you never know. - King Mungi


I did not discredit the character; the writing, the decisions to present the story, and the reason behind the story discredit the character.

If retro-conning the old Alpha Flight is a bad idea, then bringing back Lionel Jeffries is an equally bad idea. Lionel Jeffries/Scramble is a long story-arc whose main purpose was to destroy the original team, and though this story-arc was successful at its underlying goal, it does not employ the elements of fiction that add up to a good story. All the Alpha Flight characters had to be manipulated in unbelievable ways that don't ring true. As a well-written story, it fails, and having a new writer trying to fix/bring back a character who ended up getting what he should have gotten in Vietnam is a waste of time.

And I will not be rushing to spend money on a character that I do not enjoy reading.

[-K-M-]

I did not discredit the character; the writing, the decisions to present the story, and the reason behind the story discredit the character.

If retro-conning the old Alpha Flight is a bad idea, then bringing back Lionel Jeffries is an equally bad idea. Lionel Jeffries/Scramble is a long story-arc whose main purpose was to destroy the original team, and though this story-arc was successful at its underlying goal, it does not employ the elements of fiction that add up to a good story. All the Alpha Flight characters had to be manipulated in unbelievable ways that don't ring true. As a well-written story, it fails, and having a new writer trying to fix/bring back a character who ended up getting what he should have gotten in Vietnam is a waste of time.

And I will not be rushing to spend money on a character that I do not enjoy reading.

I know, hence why I said give Oeming a chance if he did take on the character as he probally could handle it far better. Heck, many characters throughout Marvel U or the DC U have had poor backgrounds, yet they turned out to be great characters.

How so? we don't know how he would be brought back or the direction it would play out. Once again, new writer can add elements of fiction that add up to a good story. Once again your pidgeon-holding the character from how he was written in the past, it's over and if someone else took him up it would be a different direction.

Up to you, I can't force you to read it

[Guardian]

Highlight to read, possible spoilers
Manbot has been reprogrammed and is now a Washer/Dryer in the Department H laundry. He had to be good for something.

Ha! That's the funniest thing I've seen all day.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I don't think it's all that drastic. It's not a story or story-arc I'm interested in reading. Scramble's story has been told, and in my opinion it wasn't told very well, it wasn't told very plausibly, it wasn't told very logically, and it wasn't told with anything that could be considered respect for---let alone knowledge of---who Alpha Flight really is.

You make a couple points here that kinda make the opposite argument as well. First, let me say be as drastic as you want with your own money. Spend it on what you like! If you're that turned off by Scramble, then don't buy anything that has that character.

On the other hand, you argue that the storyteller was the problem. The characters weren't handled well and the storyline was ill conceived.That could be said about every character in every comic stable I'm sure. I doubt Iron Man, Wolverine, Spider-man, Superman, Batman, Spawn, etc. have always been characterized perfectly. I'm sure we can all site an arc in which they too sucked. That however doesn't make the character a dead end. A good writer might be able to fabricate a story that we'll all love about a character we all dislike. I'm defineitely not a reader who likes to see characters needlessly killed off. If it make s sense to the story then great. If not, then leave them alone for another writer who might like them. I for one couldn't stand Manbot in V2, but I wouldn't want to see him killed or decommissioned or whatever they'd do with him(it).

It's not just the storyteller. The problem is much bigger than that.

In the mid-80's, DC was publishing The New Teen Titans, Crisis on Infinite Earths, The Dark Knight, and The Watchmen, all impressive feats of sequential storytelling. As someone else mentioned, Marvel was publishing Miller's Daredevil, Simonson's Thor, and Byrne's Fantastic Four, presumably the best that Marvel had to offer.

At the same time, Alpha Flight was being published out of sequence.

Alpha Flight #43, page 11, panel 2, Northstar's thought balloon: "Should I tell Scramble about the cough and weakness that has affected me since I was kissed by Pestilence?" Pestilence doesn't kiss Northstar until AF #44 [page 16, panel 4]. No writer can fix this, but you are welcome to try. Not trying to be sarcastic.

Again, AF #43, last page (24), panel 4: Heather's word balloon: "Puck's hurt!" Heather's word balloon: "We've got to get him to New Life--to Scramble!" If this had taken place after #44, it might have been a lot more rational not to even consider Shaman. But it didn't.

This may or may not be trivial: throughout this arc, after Scramble is presumed cured, the members of Alpha Flight do not refer to Lionel as "Dr. Jeffries" or even "Lionel"; it's usually "Scramble." Moreover, Alpha Flight's recommendation must not have meant much since Scramble and New Life were unlicensed.

Which brings me to a big hole in the story: on what evidence of real medical proficiency was Puck---who had just seen Scramble turn his would-be girlfriend into a monster---able to vouch for Lionel? [AF# 31]

I was stupid enough to think that expecting the best out of the comics I read wasn't a bad thing. Marvel used to be "The House of Ideas," but it lost its moral compass and started producing books that nearly smacked the reader with "you'll take/buy what we give you." I was doubly-stupid to try and point this out.

And for that I'm accused of trying to discredit someone.

[jay042]

One potential villian to consider bringing back is Horatio Huxley from Volume 2. He was treated as a buffoon near the end, but he would make a great mad scientist and recurring baddie. He was presented as one of the most brilliant men in the field of metahuman research. Since volume 2 ended with him cut loose and without govermental support, seems likely he might offer his skills to the highest bidder.

[-K-M-]

Ummm...once again Garry your relying on how he was portrayed back in the day, as even Oeming stated in a recent interview there are no bad characters only bad writers. Also how does that even relate to Lionel Jeffries as character as you mentioned was continunity errors not character problems.

New writer can easily fix those "issues and concerns"

[Barnacle13]

And for that I'm accused of trying to discredit someone.

I agree with your points, the story was not good. All I'm saying is the character could still be a very viable and loved (or villified) character. A good story-teller could do that.

[syvalois]

What about the zodiac? they where good in vol 2 mostly with the mystery involving them and the link to director H.