New Article on Northstar

[HappyCanuck]

Okay, as amicable as most of the parties involved in this discussion are being, I see a potential blow-out coming. I'm not going to point fingers, but ask that you all either keep the debate rational (I have no qualms about healthy debates), or rein it in and end it. I don't want to have to end this by moderating. Let's keep it respectful people.

[Le Messor]

Allan, I disrespect that. :P

Snowy; from his first post, I imagined ComicBookBin wasn't the author; but from his second, I figured he was. So, linking to his article, he decided not to tell us he'd written it. (I've done basic'ly the same thing myself, but not here). He got defensive when you got personal about the author, not realising the author would actually read it.

CBB: Confirm / Deny?

I had a couple of quibbles with the article. The main one being a profound misunderstanding of Northstar's motives, which CBB seems to continue in his postings. CBB Note: When he first joined, he joined for his sister. You say later he lost his motive for being in AF? When his sister broke up with him, he quit the team.
Afterwards, he was the victim of bad writing / retcons, same as the rest of the team.

I imagine Mac gave him the name, and he didn't care enough about it to protest. It's clear he didn't respect the whole concept anyway ('These silly games of costumes and death'; or was that not him? )

He -should- have an accurate accent.

Beaubier? Sylvie has protested that name before. But my feeling is, if the name exists (and it does), it can exist -anywhere-, even if it isn't representative of the local flavour. People move.

Totally agree that this sudden business thing was a load of garbage. But AF have faced a lot of that over the years.

- Le Messor
"A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies."
- Oscar Wild, Picture of Dorian Gray

[kozzi24]

Boy, that was a dumb article. Some points:

"While his sister, Aurora is a split personality, Northstar’s history is schizophrenic and really show a lack of understanding from all the authors who worked on him."

Does this guy even know what schizophrenia is? (Kids: don't use words you don't understand.)

BTW, schizophrenia != split personality disorder.

The author of the article was RIGHT, so you may be embarassed by you montage of "Kids: don't use words you don't understand".
MPD is NOT schizophrenia. Think paranoid schizophrenia, which does describe in many describe Northstar, at least early in his existence.

Paraphrased quote from http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/schiz.html:

A person with schizophrenia often suffers from terrifying symptoms such as hearing internal voices not heard by others, or believing that other people are reading their minds, controlling their thoughts, or plotting to harm them. These symptoms may leave them fearful and withdrawn.
...the disorder often appears earlier in men, usually in the late teens or early twenties...persisting consequences of the illness—lost opportunities, stigma, residual symptoms, and medication side effects—may be very troubling.
...false yet strongly held personal beliefs that result from an inability to separate real from unreal experiences. Less obvious symptoms, such as social isolation or withdrawal, or unusual speech, thinking, or behavior, may precede, be seen along with, or follow the psychotic symptoms.

Some of his history with the team:
He joined ot get to know his sister, and even that was marginal. He only joined the battle in Marvel 2-in-1 when he saw media reports of Aurora being endangered.
He quit when Aurora dissolved their association, yet, in one of the peaks at the dynamics of his character, he stayed with Heather longest (IIRC) at Mac's funeral before retreating, possibly because he could not deal with seeing someone else he knew die...think of his family history and the AIDS crisis.)
He was FORCED to aid Alpha in V1#24.
His motives for staying in AF 25-28 were questionable. Staying as long as he did in Mantlo's run was at least in the beginning because Aurora, faced with the death of her lover, needed him.
He might have been impressed that not just Aurora, but Goblyn and Persuasion helped rescue him from Asgard.
He did develop a strong friendship with Heather, shown most obviously by his respect for her decision in Building Blocks--getting Pathway (or was it Goblyn?) to a hospital rather than hunting WildChild--and in the NS LS.
Other team members were NOT, especially in the Byrne run, supporrtive of his presence on the team. When he declined rejoining in Heather's first reorganization of the team after Mac's death, Puck basically said no loss and Heather did not disagree. When Aurora ratted out his past to the team, they considered permanently bouncing him in #25.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Allan, I disrespect that. :P

Snowy; from his first post, I imagined ComicBookBin wasn't the author; but from his second, I figured he was. So, linking to his article, he decided not to tell us he'd written it.

Hey...I already said that, a couple of messages ago.

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

Boy, that was a dumb article. Some points:

"While his sister, Aurora is a split personality, Northstar’s history is schizophrenic and really show a lack of understanding from all the authors who worked on him."

Does this guy even know what schizophrenia is? (Kids: don't use words you don't understand.)

BTW, schizophrenia != split personality disorder.

The author of the article was RIGHT, so you may be embarassed by you montage of "Kids: don't use words you don't understand".
MPD is NOT schizophrenia. Think paranoid schizophrenia, which does describe in many describe Northstar, at least early in his existence.

Paraphrased quote from http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/schiz.html:

A person with schizophrenia often suffers from terrifying symptoms such as hearing internal voices not heard by others, or believing that other people are reading their minds, controlling their thoughts, or plotting to harm them. These symptoms may leave them fearful and withdrawn.
...the disorder often appears earlier in men, usually in the late teens or early twenties...persisting consequences of the illness—lost opportunities, stigma, residual symptoms, and medication side effects—may be very troubling.
...false yet strongly held personal beliefs that result from an inability to separate real from unreal experiences. Less obvious symptoms, such as social isolation or withdrawal, or unusual speech, thinking, or behavior, may precede, be seen along with, or follow the psychotic symptoms.

Some of his history with the team:
He joined ot get to know his sister, and even that was marginal. He only joined the battle in Marvel 2-in-1 when he saw media reports of Aurora being endangered.
He quit when Aurora dissolved their association, yet, in one of the peaks at the dynamics of his character, he stayed with Heather longest (IIRC) at Mac's funeral before retreating, possibly because he could not deal with seeing someone else he knew die...think of his family history and the AIDS crisis.)
He was FORCED to aid Alpha in V1#24.
His motives for staying in AF 25-28 were questionable. Staying as long as he did in Mantlo's run was at least in the beginning because Aurora, faced with the death of her lover, needed him.
He might have been impressed that not just Aurora, but Goblyn and Persuasion helped rescue him from Asgard.
He did develop a strong friendship with Heather, shown most obviously by his respect for her decision in Building Blocks--getting Pathway (or was it Goblyn?) to a hospital rather than hunting WildChild--and in the NS LS.
Other team members were NOT, especially in the Byrne run, supporrtive of his presence on the team. When he declined rejoining in Heather's first reorganization of the team after Mac's death, Puck basically said no loss and Heather did not disagree. When Aurora ratted out his past to the team, they considered permanently bouncing him in #25.

I have to add something, Kozzi...We know that Jean Paul had little love for english-speaking folks (maybe even the Martin family spoke primarily english...Perhaps he felt his heritage/culture was threatened, growing up in an english-speaking foster family...or perhaps he hated them, because they discovered his "secret" and rejected him for it? We don't know enough about them to tell)...He also had no love for the Canadian govt (or working for them, for that matter)....The "hook" Mac Hudson used to ensnare Jean Paul, was the sister he never knew of...We all know that was his primary reason for staying with the team (at least in the beginning).

However...It is not beyond reason to believe that He would grow to love the people in Alpha Flight as the family (as dysfunctional as it was) he never truly had. I think that's why he stayed so long with Heather at Mac's funeral, why he refused to abandoned the team, even when they learned of his past, why he kept coming back...even after quitting, retiring, etc...To him..they became home and family...and I think he truly cares about them (even Walter, whom he always claimed to loathe).

Dana

[Snowsquatch]

Boy, that was a dumb article. Some points:

"While his sister, Aurora is a split personality, Northstar’s history is schizophrenic and really show a lack of understanding from all the authors who worked on him."

Does this guy even know what schizophrenia is? (Kids: don't use words you don't understand.)

BTW, schizophrenia != split personality disorder.

The author of the article was RIGHT, so you may be embarassed by you montage of "Kids: don't use words you don't understand".
MPD is NOT schizophrenia. Think paranoid schizophrenia, which does describe in many describe Northstar, at least early in his existence.

Paraphrased quote from http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/schiz.html:

A person with schizophrenia often suffers from terrifying symptoms such as hearing internal voices not heard by others, or believing that other people are reading their minds, controlling their thoughts, or plotting to harm them. These symptoms may leave them fearful and withdrawn.
...the disorder often appears earlier in men, usually in the late teens or early twenties...persisting consequences of the illness—lost opportunities, stigma, residual symptoms, and medication side effects—may be very troubling.
...false yet strongly held personal beliefs that result from an inability to separate real from unreal experiences. Less obvious symptoms, such as social isolation or withdrawal, or unusual speech, thinking, or behavior, may precede, be seen along with, or follow the psychotic symptoms.

Some of his history with the team:
He joined ot get to know his sister, and even that was marginal. He only joined the battle in Marvel 2-in-1 when he saw media reports of Aurora being endangered.
He quit when Aurora dissolved their association, yet, in one of the peaks at the dynamics of his character, he stayed with Heather longest (IIRC) at Mac's funeral before retreating, possibly because he could not deal with seeing someone else he knew die...think of his family history and the AIDS crisis.)
He was FORCED to aid Alpha in V1#24.
His motives for staying in AF 25-28 were questionable. Staying as long as he did in Mantlo's run was at least in the beginning because Aurora, faced with the death of her lover, needed him.
He might have been impressed that not just Aurora, but Goblyn and Persuasion helped rescue him from Asgard.
He did develop a strong friendship with Heather, shown most obviously by his respect for her decision in Building Blocks--getting Pathway (or was it Goblyn?) to a hospital rather than hunting WildChild--and in the NS LS.
Other team members were NOT, especially in the Byrne run, supporrtive of his presence on the team. When he declined rejoining in Heather's first reorganization of the team after Mac's death, Puck basically said no loss and Heather did not disagree. When Aurora ratted out his past to the team, they considered permanently bouncing him in #25.

Kozzi, none of your "evidence" remotely resembles schizophrenia.

[HappyCanuck]

Actually, Squatch, Jeff described it correctly. You misphrased when you said "schizophrenia != split personality disorder". MPD (Multiple Personality Disorder) and schizophrenia are two separate disorders. The information Jeff posted on schizophrenia is primarily correct.

[Snowsquatch]

I have to add something, Kozzi...We know that Jean Paul had little love for english-speaking folks (maybe even the Martin family spoke primarily english...Perhaps he felt his heritage/culture was threatened, growing up in an english-speaking foster family...or perhaps he hated them, because they discovered his "secret" and rejected him for it? We don't know enough about them to tell)

According to AF#10 page19, Northstar "only speaks French" went he first met Gary Cody, Mac, and his sister. Presumably, he learns English between then and the first X-Men appearance.

Can anyone here point to an issue where Northstar actually says he dislikes anglos? I don't think I've ever seen it.

[Snowsquatch]

Actually, Squatch, Jeff described it correctly. You misphrased when you said "schizophrenia != split personality disorder". MPD (Multiple Personality Disorder) and schizophrenia are two separate disorders. The information Jeff posted on schizophrenia is primarily correct.

I know MPD and schizophrenia are not the same.

Jeff's posted info on schizophrenia is correct, but his interpretation of Northstar's behaviour as schizophrenic isn't. Northstar is not a schizophrenic.

[HappyCanuck]

oops, my bad, misinterpretted.

but again, he's not CLINICALLY schizophrenic, he DOES exhibit some baseline paranoid schizophrenic qualities as described, especially in Byrne's run...

[kozzi24]

I agree to a large extent, Dana, but I always cringe the way "surrogate family" is thrown about, in comic team books and in the real world.
Alpha was a group of people who worked together. Co-workers can seem like "family" just because we spend more time in our weeks...40+ out of 168 hours...than we do our family.

I am sure he'd come to accept and even love some of his teammates/co-workers, and I think Heather was first among them.
With Puck, awkwardness about NS's orientation was evident in the Byrne issues. I'll cite #12, with Puck's thought-balloon surprise that NS was his ride to battle, AND in the depiction of that flight...Puck most definitely does not look like he was holding tight enough for a high speed, unsheltered flight through the sky. By #106, I'm sure he appreciated Puck's supportive presence during the vigil for the baby Joanne.

He was never shown to have bonded with Snowbird or Shaman. No change from the (Mantlo biased) antagonism between NS and Madison Jeffries was ever shown aside NS's willingness to sit and have a drink with his co-workers, including Puck, in #105. I don't think he was ever close with Mac. Wjen Mac was revealed as alive in Nicienza's run, NS referred to him only by his last name, not a sign of friendliness.

He seemed friendly with Lil during Nicienza's run, particularly after she obtained the means for her own biopsy.

It's actually that panel with Lil that gives my writer's mind some subtle consistency to his character and interrelations with other chracters. Northstar will not love you unless he respects you, and one thing that seems to gain his respect is showing that you will do WHATEVER IT TAKES for your needs and beliefs. He may not agree with the action, but he'll respect it.
Hudson needed to build a team: while NS may have disliked Hudson, I think he respected Mac's willingness to use Aurora to recruit NS.
I think he respected Heather's hard choice in dealing with Snowbird/Pestilence, and Lil's extreme measure to find a way to make the biopsy happen.

Most other members just seem accepted as part of his Alpha-centric life.

EXCEPT Walter Langkowski.

Solomon's spell in #24 would not have worked (despite it being a trick) without one who loved him, one of great power and one who hated him. Mantlo started the drivel of NS really secretly like him, referring to it at least twice, the first time while NS comforted Aurora in #29...WAAAAAAYY to soon for any development between NS and Langkowski to have changed the perception of events in #24. (Any time there is inconsistency, I default to Byrne's version.) In #116 (or so, maybe a few issues prior) NS was VERY quick to jump on Langkowski concerning Aurora. He didn't ask Langkowski to be careful with Aurora, he warned Langkowski away: not how you handle it if you like the person at all.

The only real positive interaction between NS and Langkowski I remember was when Walt was Wanda. (And due to Mantlo's biases, it's something of a bad example because the conversation was "I preferred you as the man you were.") Eye candy is my explanation to rectify the writers' differences in characterization. Some of NS's dislike may also be based on stereotypes. NS became an athlete when he learned he could fly. Langkowski was a football jock, and something of a bully (w/Puck in #1, NS in #12, etc.) NS grew up as a thin gay orphan...don't tell me he was not the victim of bullying by the jock clique in high school, or that Walt comes off as anything but part of that clique.

NS seems to actually bond better with women--Lil, Heather, "Wanda," Clementine--than he does with men; the lack of all sexual tension explains that easily enough.

The death of the Martins has never been explored AT ALL, so the reasons for his rancor towards them is unexplained. But taking the defensiveness of the early character, it may simply be bitterness that in dying, they left him.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Sigh...fine...I'm wrong. I guess I just don't know the characters as well as the rest of you (insert extreme sarcasm anywhere here).

[Mokole]

I figure Northstar is oppositional-defiant, always with a chip on his shoulder.

Split personality disorder is known as 'schizoid', hence the mix-up with schizophrenia. Schizoid is linked to MPD, many people say, "Two of you, schizoid, more, MPD."

Anyway I always saw Northstar as having a mad-on for the world. Occasionally he mellows but then...

[kozzi24]

Hey Dana, lighten up!

Snowie, let me cut the same quote further to get the overlap in the characteristics shown by NS particularly in the Byrne run:

plotting to harm them. These symptoms may leave them fearful and withdrawn.
...the disorder often appears earlier in men, usually in the late teens or early twenties{regretting} lost opportunities, stigma, .
...false yet strongly held personal beliefs that result from an inability to separate real from unreal experiences. Less obvious symptoms, such as social isolation or withdrawal, or unusual speech, thinking, or behavior, may precede

Northstar was definitely withdrawn and isolated, in part by choice. I'm not sure he didn't KNOW English when he first joined Department H...my interpretation was always that he REFUSED to speak English to accommodate the Anglos.

As Allen said,

he's not CLINICALLY schizophrenic, he DOES exhibit some baseline paranoid schizophrenic qualities as described, especially in Byrne's run...

I did not mean to come off assigning a full textbook case to the character, but meant only to defend that particular word choice in the article.

[Snowsquatch]

Northstar was definitely withdrawn and isolated, in part by choice.

I don't think that's true. Northstar wasn't avoiding AF so he could spent time in isolation. He was returning to pre-AF friends. Remember the phone call from Heather in AF#18? Northstar is in a pool, with two friends in the background.

I don't want to sound like a know-it-all, but I think everyone is grasping at straws. I think NS was an arrogant brat. I don't think his arrogant brattiness was a sign of anglo-hatred or mental problems.