Poll: Would you sign the Superpowers Registration Act?

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Thread: Would You Sign The Superpowers Registration Act?

  1. #16

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    By the same token does it not set a bad precedent once you allow one group to put on mask and mete out justice according to their own will and whim? Do you not open the door for anyone to do that?
    I'm not sure which point this is responding to. By which same token are you talking about? And what re you suggesting would be done exactly?

    And really, how do you know who is under the mask at any given time?
    What stopping Erbert the Pervert from puttign on a Spidey costume and luring young children away? Or YOU placing your trust in someone you thought was a hero, only to find out the hard way that anyone can don a costum and put on an act?

    How do you know that anyone is anyone? All those other forms of registration have the same problem, with all forms of fraud. And I'm not sure what relevance the pervert example has... are you saying that costumes entirely should be outlawed? Because I'm pretty sure Halloween would have a problem with that, as would most of those of us geeks who frequently attend comic shows in costumes... but I'm still not sure what that has to do with it... couldn't "Erbert the Pervert" just lure the child away anyways? I mean heck, the real Spider-Man could do just the same thing... how does registration solve that problem (or superheroes cause that problem?)? Plus, hopefully it isn't like the public gets this information anyways... just on principle they'd get tons of stalkers and murderers out to get a name for themselves, large common criminal elements like HYDRA even aside.

    If THEY can regularly hide their identites, kick down doors, and smash peoples faces in for acts THEY perceive to be wrong, then so can you or me or anyone.
    Uh... we are allowed to hide our identities. And we are allowed to make citizens arrests, which is the tame version of what you are saying. Do superheroes regularly kick down doors? Because I can't remember these occasions that they were doing this. And they don't just walk up to people and smash them in the face, there a re usually circumstances around that. So there pretty much isn't a double standard, barring extremist examples.

    If they can walk about casually with the destructive power of a nuke a mere whim of their will away, then whats the big deal about me owning or carrying or using an assualt rifle whenever I please or stock piling weapons ...
    Because they're human beings. Alternative solutions must be sought. But to regulate them as if they are the weapons themselves dehumanizes them, and leads to pointless encarcerations because there appears to be no alternatives. (Plus, we as human beings already possess the power to kill one another, even in great numbers. We have laws that make murder a crime for that reason. Once a crime has been committed, they should then be subject to that law. Innocent until proven guilty still stands, so if an individual hasn't committed a crime, why should they suddenly be subject to laws that make their living a crime?)

    then the so-called heroes need to get with the same programm all of us are held to and begin sending the RIGHT message and operating on the RIGHT side .... that of the people and state/s they claim to care about and want to protect, as opposed to their own side.
    And those that don't want to participate? Those that don't want to be subject to the whim of the government? What if they don't think that the 'RIGHT' message that you're claiming would be in place is in fact right? What then?

    One of the big probmes I see with having a database of identities is the possibility of it falling into the wrong hands. How often have organizations like AIM, or HYDRA stolen governemt information? And look, they nearly totally destroyed SHIELD at on point! Many of those who secret thier identities are for the sake of the ones they love. If it becomes known who and where these super-powered people are, thier families are instantly at risk.
    Also, who gets this information? Who regulates it? Who decides what punishments are necesarry and what the propoer means of going about prosecuting vioators should be? How far does it reach? Should this information be available to just the highest ups in government or the local police? Should it be provided to citizens' rights groups who are worried that they might have such powered individuals in their neighborhoods that might subsequently endager their lives? And if so, what is to stop this list from circulating widely on places like the net that then sets up addresses and personal information for people to kill these individuals. Heck, its happened with abortion doctors in the real world. Imagine what you'd get with the opportunity to stalk or kill a superhero.

    True, but at this stage of the game do you think the premier policing organization SHIELD would not already have dossiers on just about every known hero and villain already? Storywise it makes perfect sense to me that Nick Fury would have been doing this over the years whether it was out of a sense of being prepared for any eventuality (as with the Xavier Files in the X-men) or just plain paranoia on the part of his superiors.
    I absolutely agree, except for the fact that I think the registration is an attempt to force these individuals to come forward to the government and subject themselves to other forms of regulation, such as perhaps tracking or bugging, and service to the government. Just knowing who these people are and making them responsbile for their actions (which to be honest I've always assumed has been in place in the first place), makes no difference.

    So, I guess if those are the terms, I must oppose the Act. However, if that detail were amended to something more... realistic, then I'd continue to support the idea.
    Realistic as in optional opportunity to continue their work in service of SHIELD or realistic as in those that do qualify as of military value should be forced?

    She couldn't have fallen back, let him think he was getting away, and then nailed him at a better time and place? She couldn't at least have grabbed him and gone soaring high into the sky with him.. making an attempt to place those children out of harms way? If she had been properly trained and prepared, she would have and all of those children wouldn't be dead. And all of their living friends and relatives wouldn't be crushed with anguish.
    But they aren't proposing training. And accidents do happen. The girl was obviously not aware as to the power that her opponent had and didn't understand the risk. The same could happen in a real world scenario, and oftentimes civilian lives are lost despite all of the training given to them anways. Now this still isn't a support of the New Warriors.

    If a super powered person breaks a law or commits a crime then I see no problem with his details being recorded, much like comvicted criminals have their DNA profile recorded. How would you feel however, if you were told that a record of your DNA was required, because you came from a demographic that may one day commit a crime?
    Again, a beautiful articulation that I could never hope to match...
    The ability to defy death can be achieved...
    It is a state acquired through compassion not greed...

  2. #17

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    Well, I think that a flat out registration of all such folks would be a good place to start. From there you can begin quatifiying the phenom. in finer detail.

    One of the things I've recently been thinking about from the pov of my Powersurge character is that given the choice of suffering some ambiguous label at birth, or being responsible for unwittingly killing hundreds of innocent people, what would he chose ... in hindesight? And answering for him, yes. Even as the Banner would have killed himself a long time ago if he could, Powersurge would rather have risked cradle recognition of his latent mutantcy, if in doing so the disaster he caused could have been averted.

    I recall at least one mutant from the early days of X-Factor burning a city down around him because, his powers just activated one fine day and the mutant had no clue how to control them or turn them off. Thats a heavy burden to carry, I'd figure.

    One thing I noticed about what Iron Man said in Illuminati was that any FLAGRANT use of powers would result in reprucussions. So, if a person had powers but could control them and didn't want anything to do with them, then there would be no reason to track them down.

    I think that is as realistc from the standpoint of the bottom line ($$$$), as giving EVERY (registered) metahuman and his sidekick a job.

    As for how you would enforce the law beyond that ... how to convince criminals to obey the law, well, that has always been the problem. Of course, the benefits of common law and pooled resources, have always been for the benefit of those who respect their fellow man and work with them toward their mutual weal ... not those who break the law and seek to subvert the common wealth to their own ends.

  3. #18

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    Taken from here

    The government then proposes superheroes register their names, alter egos and powers and agree to participate in training programs -- in effect becoming legitimate, regulated law-enforcement agents.
    So register and become a super powered lackey to the whims of the government, and if Mr Anonimity from earlier doesn't want to be used as a living weapon by the government? Do they arrest him and intern him until he plays ball. Where does it actually stop?
    Del

    Driftwood: Well, I got about a foot and a half. Now, it says, uh, "The party of the second part shall be known in this contract as the party of the second part."
    Fiorello: Well, I don't know about that...
    Driftwood: Now what's the matter?
    Fiorello: I no like-a the second party, either.
    Driftwood: Well, you should've come to the first party. We didn't get home 'til around four in the morning... I was blind for three days!

  4. #19

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    Illegal superhoics for me.

    Given the SHIELD's track record is no better than most independent superheroes, I wouldn't knuckle under for them.

    On the other hand, I'd be open to working with an organization that was subject to a bit more oversight...
    "You cannot win, mailman Mike. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

  5. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaman Of The Whills
    By the same token does it not set a bad precedent once you allow one group to put on mask and mete out justice according to their own will and whim? Do you not open the door for anyone to do that?
    I'm not sure which point this is responding to. By which same token are you talking about? And what re you suggesting would be done exactly?
    Errrr, ummmm, well, maybe what I was responding to was in another thread. It's hard ot keep track of them all, and my response tend to be to general ideas expressed thorughout and/or as they come to mind.

    Anyway, I believe the point I was responding to was something to the effect that by forcing superhumans to register you'd be opening the door for the forced registration of all sorts of minorities.

    As for what I'm suggesting; I thought it was fairly clear; if one group of freebooters has the right to put on a mask and pass judgement according to their own whim, that opens the door for others to do so as well ... by their own whim and will.

    I mean heck, the real Spider-Man could do just the same thing... how does registration solve that problem (or superheroes cause that problem?)?

    Well, if the real Spiderman did do that, we would eventaully learn he was doing that, and when we did know he was who he was supposed to be, and he would be caught and punished. And if the real Spiderman didn't do it, we would know he didn't, becasue he could be accounted for, and then we could work on apprehending the REAL criminal. Hows that for a start?

    The real Spiderman could be furnished with some sort of identifiaction. You say it is a waste of time due to forgery? So, though I think we've covered this ground before, are you also suggesting we do away with all forms of identification because it might be a forgery?

    Uh... we are allowed to hide our identities. And we are allowed to make citizens arrests, which is the tame version of what you are saying. Do superheroes regularly kick down doors? Because I can't remember these occasions that they were doing this. And they don't just walk up to people and smash them in the face, there a re usually circumstances around that.

    Once again, you say that from the unique perspective of an omniscient god who can see into the very thoughts of the heroes in question, and know every detail of every situation they are involved in from start to finish. For all intenets and purposes, they don a mask, kick in doo ... errr, scratch that, they knock down buildings, and beat people up based upon their own will and whim.

    As for not having to reveal our identites; just try getting into any position of societal trust ... hell just try getting a job at a convenience store without revealing your identity.

    As for the "outlawing costumes" comment; gimme a break.

    And those that don't want to participate?

    Better make sure they keep their heads down, their noses clean, and don't presume an unwarrented air of authority.

    Those that don't want to be subject to the whim of the government?

    I would rather be at the whim of a government that me and mine essentially support, and which supports us in turn in various ways, than at the whim of a bunch of super-powered cry babies who have enough power to destroy entire cities and yet whine incessantly about how oppressed THEY are and how tyranical WE are.




    Realistic as in optional opportunity to continue their work in service of SHIELD or realistic as in those that do qualify as of military value should be forced?

    Realistic as in not imagining that every superhuman has either the powers of the psychological inclination to be a good combatant. And realistic as in not imagiing that they have the resources to provide every metahuman in the States (let alone the world) with training, a salary and benefits.

    But they aren't proposing training.

    One would imagine that an organization that is going to take on people to act as its agents are also going to ensure that those agents are properly trained ... or it will be that organizations arse on the line.

    And accidents do happen.

    THat wasn't a accident. That was sure ignorance and bravado. Granted Fish Girl ain't evil, but as far as "accidents" go, she comes about as close as you can get.

    The girl was obviously not aware as to the power that her opponent had and didn't understand the risk.

    Bull. She dared him to explode prior to the fact. Another of them called Nitro "that old Captain Marvel enemy". They knew. And if they didn't, they should've. Just like they should've known that they were smack dab in the middle of a residential neighbourhood. Just like they should've known there was an elementary school right across or just up the freakin street. And that schol was in session. It's supposed to be their JOB to know. Because their job is supposed to be protecting people, not performing for a camera.

    They boched it, BIG time. And their mistake ISN'T excuseable, becasue it was so obvious and galring so as to have been entirely avoidable. To excuse them for missing the obvioius, is like excusing the first year med. student for losing a patient in surgery. The student has NO PLACE performig surgery. Nor does a superhero have any place attacking a guy who can explode out front of a stocked schoolyard. It's idiotic beyonds belief.

  6. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Powersurge
    The real Spiderman could be furnished with some sort of identifiaction. You say it is a waste of time due to forgery?
    The Avengers had little picture ID cards, back in the day... Spidey had one, as I recall.
    "You cannot win, mailman Mike. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

  7. #22

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    On the other hand, I'd be open to working with an organization that was subject to a bit more oversight...
    I'd be very willing to sign up under an independent organization that wasn't SHIELD, and actually I do agree with the general idea that Iron Man proposed 'back in the day' during the Illuminati special. Oddly enough, over that long period of time, it seems like the group flip-flopped on my like scale... if Iron Man and company had managed to create such an independent institution that would be in the hands of the superheroes themselves, I'd be totally down for that, and were I among them I'd sign up. Heck, I'd sign up even if I didn't have superpowers, just in case they wanted a no-power piece of cannon fodder. I'm certain that most everybody would be up for that too, because they have been in the past, thinking back to all the other major events... these guys have come together time and time again in these major crisis events... its kinda sad (and to me a bit unbelievable) that something so petty as this could drive such a wedge among the superhero community that will result in hero murdering hero. Depending on who does what, there should be no coming back from that. Given the situation as it has been proposed, I'm thinking that this almost ensures defeat for the opposition to the act, because as it stands it seems there is really no way for the opposing side to be victorious at the end of the day. They can only admit defeat to the bill, either fleeing the country, succumbing to its demands and becoming tools of the establishment, becoming prisoners, living on the run or dying. I don't see them managing to actually change the establishment itself. I mean really, how would that happen? Any theories? I'm trying to get some hope for my kids here...
    The ability to defy death can be achieved...
    It is a state acquired through compassion not greed...

  8. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaman Of The Whills
    I don't see them managing to actually change the establishment itself. I mean really, how would that happen? Any theories? I'm trying to get some hope for my kids here...
    I dunno.

    If Captain America, one of, if not the most popular heroes among the mainstream populace of the MU U.S. comes out in direct opposition, he could sway popular opinion.

    Additionally, if the government heroes end up screwing up and dishing out some collateral damage of their own, it could damage the basic premise of the act, at least in the eyes of the voting public.

    Then there's the old-school Avengers solution: Self-regulate. Remember Warbird's "trial"? Yeah, it was coming apart by the end, but the public at large was just as ignorant of that as they are of the other sticky details.

    Edit Whoo-hoo! Gamma Flight!
    "You cannot win, mailman Mike. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

  9. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Powersurge
    And those that don't want to participate?

    Better make sure they keep their heads down, their noses clean, and don't presume an unwarrented air of authority.

    Those that don't want to be subject to the whim of the government?

    I would rather be at the whim of a government that me and mine essentially support, and which supports us in turn in various ways, than at the whim of a bunch of super-powered cry babies who have enough power to destroy entire cities and yet whine incessantly about how oppressed THEY are and how tyranical WE are.
    Your not being asked to be at the whim of a government, those super powered cry babies are. By what right can the government make them register and train as some kinda law enforcenment agent. Would Clint Barton be required to register, he has no powers, just highly trained. If he is required to register, why not an Olympic level gymnast or weight lifter? Anyone is capable of donning the Iron Man Armour, so anyone with that potential is gonna be required to register. If it's confined to people with powers actually within their own bodies, does that make it any better? Not in my opinion, just defines those that are different a little more. I can't see how just because anyone is different they can't be afforded the same rights as someone considered normal?
    Del

    Driftwood: Well, I got about a foot and a half. Now, it says, uh, "The party of the second part shall be known in this contract as the party of the second part."
    Fiorello: Well, I don't know about that...
    Driftwood: Now what's the matter?
    Fiorello: I no like-a the second party, either.
    Driftwood: Well, you should've come to the first party. We didn't get home 'til around four in the morning... I was blind for three days!

  10. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transmetropolitan
    Quote Originally Posted by Powersurge
    The real Spiderman could be furnished with some sort of identifiaction. You say it is a waste of time due to forgery?
    The Avengers had little picture ID cards, back in the day... Spidey had one, as I recall.
    There's also this



    Ben

  11. #26

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    Well, if the real Spiderman did do that, we would eventaully learn he was doing that, and when we did know he was who he was supposed to be, and he would be caught and punished.
    Exactly. If a criminal is committing a crime, they would eventually be caught and punished. So how does registering that individual suddenly make that crime not likely to happen? How does registration even begin to solve that problem?

    And if the real Spiderman didn't do it, we would know he didn't, becasue he could be accounted for, and then we could work on apprehending the REAL criminal. Hows that for a start?
    How would we know the real Spider-Man didn't do it? Are they under constant surveillance? Are they subject to Brother Eye? Even in the real world people can't be put under such constant surveillance even in extreme circumstances...

    The real Spiderman could be furnished with some sort of identifiaction. You say it is a waste of time due to forgery? So, though I think we've covered this ground before, are you also suggesting we do away with all forms of identification because it might be a forgery?
    I'm not saying we should throw away all forms of ID, but just pointing out the fact that there are constant cases of fraud. They can't always be depended upon, especially when you're labeling circumstances of National Security and they're entirely dependant on just an ID system. I'm also not sure how that would work... how does that have any relevance to a criminal who is committing a crime in a Spider-Man suit (especially noting that we haven't really seen all that many such examples of Spider-men dressing up to molest children in the MU)? How does having the ID make anything better? I'm just not understanding the purpose of this ID.

    Once again, you say that from the unique perspective of an omniscient god who can see into the very thoughts of the heroes in question, and know every detail of every situation they are involved in from start to finish. For all intenets and purposes, they don a mask, kick in doo ... errr, scratch that, they knock down buildings, and beat people up based upon their own will and whim.
    Much of the evidence supports my case, also known as the people cheering as the Avengers step out to greet the crowd, looking up cheerfully as the FFJet flies over or Superman passes by, the countless individuals that have been saved from criminals, and those that watched in horror as foreign craft came over to destroy them only to be stopped by those heroes... I think that people are a bit better educated to understand the superheroes... look at the outrage people express in the MU every single time Jameson tries to diss Spidey again! Look at the reporters like Sally Floyd that have come to understand the intimate lives of these people and sharing it with the rest of the world. People aren't completely ignorant to the fact. And the occasions in which they knock down buildings is rare, and usually then the people wouldn't just go "Oh those superheroes are at it", they've questioned it without a doubt, and seeing as its taken this long for them to even question this (and I still question the motives of the act), people understand. After all, they know the alternative is worse, as we've also seen many times.

    As for not having to reveal our identites; just try getting into any position of societal trust ... hell just try getting a job at a convenience store without revealing your identity.
    Yeah, and they have jobs too. They reveal their identites at those times. But they don't have to reveal their identities while they're being superheroes. Its not like "Hey everyone, my name is Peter Parker because this is important for you to know!" I mean, what reason does the public need for their identities? And people are allowed to wear masks in certain activities in modern society that aren't just for parties and holidays.

    As for the "outlawing costumes" comment; gimme a break.
    Do you have an alternative?

    Better make sure they keep their heads down, their noses clean, and don't presume an unwarrented air of authority.
    Except for that isn't the case. Those that wouldn't participate would be committing a federal crime. A federal crime isn't a thing that most people want pinned on them. Not to mention the fact that you've already noted how very hard it is to get a job without using an ID, and when that red flag is stuck on their record, lets just say that they have absolutely no chance in hell.

    I would rather be at the whim of a government that me and mine essentially support, and which supports us in turn in various ways, than at the whim of a bunch of super-powered cry babies who have enough power to destroy entire cities and yet whine incessantly about how oppressed THEY are and how tyranical WE are.
    You would rather be at the whim of government that you support. That is almost always a given! I'm questioning what you would do at the whim of a government that you don't support, who doesn't support you and that seeks to capitalize upon your life, with no regards for your natural rights.

    Realistic as in not imagining that every superhuman has either the powers of the psychological inclination to be a good combatant. And realistic as in not imagiing that they have the resources to provide every metahuman in the States (let alone the world) with training, a salary and benefits.
    Yes, but that would still mean you would demand those with the most power to serve, without a choice.

    One would imagine that an organization that is going to take on people to act as its agents are also going to ensure that those agents are properly trained ... or it will be that organizations arse on the line.
    One would imagine. But given the fact that this act goes into effect and the war begins immediately, they're going to be sending out their superpowered acquisitions to deal with the rest of them (hence the war between heroes) meaning that they won't have had the training. And the organization won't be blamed, thats part of the purpose of the act. The organization won't be blamed, the superhero will. Becuase how dare they be reckless and not responsibly handle the assignments we give them.

    THat wasn't a accident. That was sure ignorance and bravado. Granted Fish Girl ain't evil, but as far as "accidents" go, she comes about as close as you can get.
    Geez, once again, for the 14th time, I'm not supporting the New Warriors, I'm saying that accidents do happen! People die in the hospital every day even due to slight misteps of doctors, but that doesn't mean that doctors are severy punished for each and every death that occurs within their realm.

    Bull. She dared him to explode prior to the fact. Another of them called Nitro "that old Captain Marvel enemy". They knew. And if they didn't, they should've. Just like they should've known that they were smack dab in the middle of a residential neighbourhood. Just like they should've known there was an elementary school right across or just up the freakin street. And that schol was in session. It's supposed to be their JOB to know. Because their job is supposed to be protecting people, not performing for a camera.
    Yes, they were reckless. Can we get off New Warriors? I'm not supporting them. And she didn't know the power of her enemy, because she underestimated him. Hence her bravado. How can one be overconfident and not underestimating?

    To excuse them for missing the obvioius, is like excusing the first year med. student for losing a patient in surgery. The student has NO PLACE performig surgery.
    And what about the intern whose been let in on the operation? What about the head surgeon of the hospital? There are risks in all of these situations as well. And just to be clear, I'm not excusing them... I'm excusing the inevitiability of even the best of the others slipping up.
    The ability to defy death can be achieved...
    It is a state acquired through compassion not greed...

  12. #27
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    NB: from another thread, having re-read the Illuminati issue, Iron Man mentions that SHIELD is a World organisation (as opposed to merely US).

    As for the "outlawing costumes" comment; gimme a break.
    But that was in the text. "People in costumes" were on the list Tony read out.

    Bull. She dared him to explode prior to the fact. Another of them called Nitro "that old Captain Marvel enemy".
    People keep mentioning that she can fly, could've taken him up, away from the endangered crowds.

    I just thought I'd add to that: As she has in the past!

    Police going undercover don't announce 'I'm an undercover policeman'.

    OTOH, the point of the act is to control people who act as, as the MU defines them, 'Costumed Vigilantes'. However, and I think this is where the law falls apart, and what causes a lot of the arguments, it requires the registration of everyone with powers. That's what changes it into a civil rights issue.

    Whenever I work with kids, I have to have a full background check, including my Police Record. (Their greatest hits, including Roxeanne and Walking on the Moon. Tho' I also like the Ghost in the Machine cover, with its Predator numbers.)

    I actually haven't decided on a side yet, but I think it should be noted: this series, without even being out yet, has generated a lot of debate and argument. So, it's suddenly very realistic to me that the issue could start a Civil War.

    Belay that: I've got a side. I'd support a law that says, basically, "If you want to act as a superhero, you have to work for superhero department / organisation." (for any given value of superhero department / organisation) and doesn't affect those who choose not to be superheroic.
    But the law on the table does the opposite. It affects everyone with powers, and is therefore discriminatory. Some gain powers by accident, some are born with them. They're not all Iron Man.

    Also, you can't look at it without context. This law will be a beginning, not an end. Where is the end? Other minorities? I doubt this will affect them directly. But for heroes? Days of Future Past, anyone?

    - Le Messor
    "What's so civil about war anyway?"
    - Guns 'n' Roses

  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaman Of The Whills
    Exactly. If a criminal is committing a crime, they would eventually be caught and punished. So how does registering that individual suddenly make that crime not likely to happen? How does registration even begin to solve that problem?
    Registering helps us know who's who, and whos not, as well as who knows how to play in the sand box, and who does not.

    As for registration and crime reduction; if I buy a gun, I register it. Not becasue I want to reduce gun crime, but becasue it is my responsibility to as an adult, and my obligation to my neighbour... who might not even want guns to exist himself.

    How would we know the real Spider-Man didn't do it?

    Well, the first step would be establishing who the real Spiderman is. If we don't have that then its anyone's best guess. Maybe Peter Parker was testifying in court at the time of the incident. Unfortunately, no one knows that Peter Parker is Spiderman, most of all the courts, so it sucks to be Parker and rocks to be a criminal in a Spidey costume.

    How does having the ID make anything better? I'm just not understanding the purpose of this ID.

    I don't know; how does having ID make things any better in terms of, ohh, I dunno, law enforcement? Or military personel? Don't you think it is a good idea that these people have ID's to prove who they are and what they claim to be, and which place them within a loop of accountability if something goes awry ... despite the chance of forgery? Or would you prefer an anonymous "police force", with no ID, no training, that couldn't be held accountable, and that wore a mask, and targetted "criminals" on their own whim?

    Much of the evidence supports my case.

    As presented, the story states otherwise. The story states that any atmosphere of fear and mistrust has been created. The honeymoons over, the Norns have arrived from out of Jotunheim, call it what you will, the Golden Age has passed and its time to grow up.

    But they don't have to reveal their identities while they're being superheroes. Its not like "Hey everyone, my name is Peter Parker because this is important for you to know!" I mean, what reason does the public need for their identities?

    Yes, they do have to reveal their identities and precisely when they are assuming a heightened degree of societal responsibility and authority. Especially then.

    Do you have an alternative?

    Yeah, registration. And then proper documentation for those at large in the public eye.

    Except for that isn't the case. Those that wouldn't participate would be committing a federal crime. A federal crime isn't a thing that most people want pinned on them.

    Well, Iron Man stated that anyone acting in FLAGRANT disregard for the act would be hunted down, so it would appear to be the case. So, yeah, even here in BC it might not be a good idea to walk up to the local narcotics officer, sparking up dubbies, and showing off all your small quantity stash. Might be a bad idea. They might deport you to the States or something. But unless you're doing that, or destroying houses and driving down property value with grow-ops, you're probably pretty safe engaging in recreational use.

    And hey, I WANT the partially invulenrable guy that can shoot lasers from his eyes working the graveyard shift in my terd-hole location 7/11. If the people at Mac's don't, ??????

    You would rather be at the whim of government that you support.

    No, I would rather be at the whim of a government that I more-or-less
    support. I don't have to agree with every particular to still support my country. And some of the things that I disagree with might be dozey's, and I accept that as the price of doing business and making this way of life work.

    Yes, but that would still mean you would demand those with the most power to serve, without a choice.

    No, it would mean what I wrote... that there are more than enough willing combatants that no one has to be forced into service.

    The organization won't be blamed, the superhero will. Becuase how dare they be reckless and not responsibly handle the assignments we give them.

    Of course, the worst case has to be the only way it could possibly go. I however beg to differ. I won't go that way. As a matter of quick response the orgnaization will chose those best trained and experienced, and they will bare the brunt of the consequences for any hastily made decisions ... as an inevitable fact of registration.

    As for excusing the inevitabilty of mistakes, fine. But once again, this wasn't even a rookie mistake. It was clearly the result of someone who hadn't a clue. And not having a clue is unacceptable and entirely avoidable. A bit of shared knoweldge, coordination of info between heroes, the simple genius to be aware of one's surroundings for crying out loud!! What kind of an idiot would even start throwing regular Joe punches in a elementary schoolyard?!

    It's just outrageous. But once again, an error that could easily have been avoided[/b]

  14. #29

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaman Of The Whills
    Exactly. If a criminal is committing a crime, they would eventually be caught and punished. So how does registering that individual suddenly make that crime not likely to happen? How does registration even begin to solve that problem?
    Registering helps us know who's who, and whos not, as well as who knows how to play in the sand box, and who does not.

    As for registration and crime reduction; if I buy a gun, I register it. Not becasue I want to reduce gun crime, but becasue it is my responsibility to as an adult, and my obligation to my neighbour... who might not even want guns to exist himself.

    How would we know the real Spider-Man didn't do it?

    Well, the first step would be establishing who the real Spiderman is. If we don't have that then its anyone's best guess. Maybe Peter Parker was testifying in court at the time of the incident. Unfortunately, no one knows that Peter Parker is Spiderman, most of all the courts, so it sucks to be Parker and rocks to be a criminal in a Spidey costume.

    How does having the ID make anything better? I'm just not understanding the purpose of this ID.

    I don't know; how does having ID make things any better in terms of, ohh, I dunno, law enforcement? Or military personel? Don't you think it is a good idea that these people have ID's to prove who they are and what they claim to be, and which place them within a loop of accountability if something goes awry ... despite the chance of forgery? Or would you prefer an anonymous "police force", with no ID, no training, that couldn't be held accountable, and that wore a mask, and targetted "criminals" on their own whim?

    Much of the evidence supports my case.

    As presented, the story states otherwise. The story states that any atmosphere of fear and mistrust has been created. The honeymoons over, the Norns have arrived from out of Jotunheim, call it what you will, the Golden Age has passed and its time to grow up.

    But they don't have to reveal their identities while they're being superheroes. Its not like "Hey everyone, my name is Peter Parker because this is important for you to know!" I mean, what reason does the public need for their identities?

    Yes, they do have to reveal their identities and precisely when they are assuming a heightened degree of societal responsibility and authority. Especially then.

    Do you have an alternative?

    Yeah, registration. And then proper documentation for those at large in the public eye.

    Except for that isn't the case. Those that wouldn't participate would be committing a federal crime. A federal crime isn't a thing that most people want pinned on them.

    Well, Iron Man stated that anyone acting in FLAGRANT disregard for the act would be hunted down, so it would appear to be the case. So, yeah, even here in BC it might not be a good idea to walk up to the local narcotics officer, sparking up dubbies, and showing off all your small quantity stash. Might be a bad idea. They might deport you to the States or something. But unless you're doing that, or destroying houses and driving down property value with grow-ops, you're probably pretty safe engaging in recreational use.

    And hey, I WANT the partially invulenrable guy that can shoot lasers from his eyes working the graveyard shift in my terd-hole location 7/11. If the people at Mac's don't, ??????

    You would rather be at the whim of government that you support.

    No, I would rather be at the whim of a government that I more-or-less
    support. I don't have to agree with every particular to still support my country. And some of the things that I disagree with might be dozey's, and I accept that as the price of doing business and making this way of life work.

    Yes, but that would still mean you would demand those with the most power to serve, without a choice.

    No, it would mean what I wrote... that there are more than enough willing combatants that no one has to be forced into service.

    The organization won't be blamed, the superhero will. Becuase how dare they be reckless and not responsibly handle the assignments we give them.

    Of course, the worst case has to be the only way it could possibly go. I however beg to differ. I won't go that way. As a matter of quick response the orgnaization will chose those best trained and experienced, and they will bare the brunt of the consequences for any hastily made decisions ... as an inevitable fact of registration.

    As for excusing the inevitabilty of mistakes, fine. But once again, this wasn't even a rookie mistake. It was clearly the result of someone who hadn't a clue. And not having a clue is unacceptable and entirely avoidable. A bit of shared knoweldge, coordination of info between heroes, the simple genius to be aware of one's surroundings for crying out loud!! What kind of an idiot would even start throwing regular Joe punches in a elementary schoolyard?!

    It's just outrageous. But once again, an error that could easily have been avoided[/b]

  15. #30

    Default

    Oh, I just wanted to thank SOTW for todays debate. I've been trolling for this kind of thing for a couple of weeks now on various lists, and you've satiated my hunger.

    Please don't take anything I've said too personally, my blood was beginning to rise at a couple of points, but for me this is all hypothetical comicbook fun.

    Cheers mate! And thanks!

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