Nicely Summed Up

[Transmetropolitan]

Province? Sorry, that's really bad.

Uh, yeah... I'm a Yank, and that smells foul to me. We don't call Captain America "State."

If someone else dons the flag suit, they should keep the name Guardian too. How many people wore the Captain America or Iron Man suits but still kept the name?[/i]

As I recall, only one other man has worn Cap's suit, and he went on to an ultimately forgettable career as U.S. Agent. James Rhodes became War Machine.

That being said, with Guardian, we already have a sort of "tradition" of keeping the name, as Heather didn't change hers until Mac returned from the dead....

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I voted to get rid of characters, specifically all the newbies from Volumes 2 & 3, but also later Volume 1 additions...."Getting rid of" does not have to mean "killing." [this is the mark of (and challenge for) the writer who is willing to put in some effort, getting rid of characters that don't fit/they don't like yet leaving the door open for someone to pick them up]...I think the failures of V's 2 & 3 has a lot to do with an Alpha Flight title without many Alpha Flight characters. [Hudnall, working from a severe deficit, knew who the members of Alpha Flight were, incorporated them, and still didn't short-change the newer members, I am learning] The team needs villains and opponents, but the last things it needs is more members....Characters like Wildchild, Wyre, Witchfire, Nemesis, Persuasion, and, given his history since Volume 2, Madison Jeffries would all make great adversaries. [Barnacle suggested Jeffries-as-badguy, too, and I think this would be an excellent way to bring him back although he doesn't have to be a new Master to be one of the most formidable AF foes ever, but if he became the new Master that'd be interesting] Their history with the team adds a certain emotional depth to any confrontation.
One key to the success of this is to do it without info dumps or needing to show every member...[I really got tired of the exposition-posing-as-dialog during the...oh, you know when]

The inherent problem is almost every character will be someone's favorite, so there is absolutely no way to satisfy everyone. [too true, I've always believed; Alpha Flight is too big, but the series didn't fizzle as much as I thought after I had given up on it, and it seems like the loyalest AF fans will stick with the team, unless TPTB at MARVEL do something really insulting like pushing another volume 3 on the readers]

It's also my opinion that ignoring some history is better than revisiting it in any way, including to retcon.

This makes sense to me. My favorite parts may not be (probably aren't) someone elses favorite parts. I wouldn't want to purposely, spitefully rain on people's parade, if possible. The things I don't like, I wouldn't even touch [the Q'werlln, the S'Kar and Rok to name just a few]. Some people like all (or almost all) of Alpha Flight's history. It'll be hard to do, some folks aren't going to be happy no matter what, but if it's done well...

[Snowsquatch]

I had some new ideas for volume four, which I mentioned here: http://forum.alphaflight.net/viewtop...?p=18678#18678.

But since this is the proper place for it....

Directors of Dept H:
Mac and Heather

Alpha Flight:
Northstar
Sasquatch
Talisman
Puck II
(1-3 others?)

Mentors and Reserves:
Shaman
Puck I
Narya
Yukon Jack
Major Mapleleaf

First order of business: clarify whether AF really died in New Avengers 16, and clarify what happened to the AF that went to Plodexia.

Scenario 1. AF (time-displaced version from AF vol3 #12) were killed by the Collective. The real AF return from Plodexia.

Scenario 2. AF survives the Collective. Later, Shaman and Talisman perform a powerful spell, merging the souls of the AF on Plodexia into the time-displaced AF on Earth. Earthmover is thus abandoned on Plodexia. (See more below.)

The Team is assembled:

1. Heather and Mac retire from AF, assuming civilian leadership roles in Dept H. (They are ready as backup, however.)

2. Narya and Yukon Jack retire to Kemteron. (They too are ready as backup.)

3. Shaman and Puck I work as training operatives at Dept H, mentoring Talisman and Puck II. (They too are ready as backup.)

4. The "spearhead" of Alpha Flight is formed: Sasquatch, Puck II, Talisman, with Northstar leading. (Plus other characters, if desired. Diamond Lil, maybe?)

5. Lou Stadler has returned to the RCMP, and acts as their liaison. Unknown to Northstar or the rest of AF, Mac has been secretly preparing Stadler to eventually replace Mac as the new Guardian. (!!)

The Threats:

1. Aurora. Northstar accepts leadership of AF for the expressed purpose of dealing with his estranged sister, who is still quite mad, and has become an increasing danger.

2. Jeffries. Still Gemini, Jeffries ceases control of the Plodex ship from AF. They face immense difficulties escaping the Jeffries-controlled ship, and even after he uses it as a base to destabilize Canada.

3. Nemesis. After the tragic death of Rudy Princeton, an embittered Nemesis decides to wipe out AF, just like she promised in AF vol3 #2.

4. Earthmover. This "omega-level" mutant was abandoned on Plodexia after "the merging." The resettlement of Plodexia is a failure. An embittered, deranged Earthmover returns to Earth with an army of mystically re-crafted Plodex. Being both a mutant and a mystic, Earthmover represents a serious threat to AF, and he is also resentful that Shaman has decided that Talisman is now his protege again.

In other words, lots of "embittered" ex-Alphans with very personal grudges against our heroes, and serious mental disturbances on top of that. When it's all over, any of the four could be dead, incarcerated, institutionalized, or perhaps redeemed and returned to AF.

(Just so long as they aren't killed. How many times were Ernest, Gilded Lily, Nemesis, etc killed and returned to life later? Too many.)

The Tensions:

1. Northstar versus Heather. Mac had always believed Jean-Paul could be a natural leader, but Heather is skeptical. Dept H need to learn to tell Northstar what to do, and let him worry about how to do it. Northstar needs to learn to check his own ego in order to lead AF effectively.

2. Northstar versus Sasquatch. For obvious reasons, the capture/rescue of Aurora is perceived differently by her brother and former lover. Sas isn't happy with Northstar as leader, but he doesn't want the leadership himself, accepting the situation as a necessary evil to save Aurora. Over time, Sas begins to respect Northstar's leadership.

3. Eugene mentors Zusha Yu. Zusha admires Northstar immensely (and perhaps has a crush, too). Her hero-worship of Northstar (and Eugene's distaste for Northstar's arrogance and showboating) make the mentoring difficult. Of course, Eugene is not the best role model, having abandoned Zusha and her mother years ago. Many fences to mend, here.

4. Shaman mentors Talisman. All fences are mended here, but Shaman faces a new challenge, as Elizabeth has become prone to the same depression that has haunted Michael throughout his life. Interestingly, Liz finds Northstar's success over depression to be inspirational, but finds Shaman's advice to be hollow.

5. Zusha-Stadler-Northstar love triangle. Yes, Zusha loves Lou, but has a crush on Northstar. Wouldn't it be funny if Jean-Paul also had a crush on Lou? (!!)

That's all my brainstorming could develop tonight. Thoughts?

[Obsidian3d]

I have to say that this idea of yours really looks solid. It could easily be put together into an interesting, exciting, character-driven story. There's a lot to work with and lots of directions to go. If the folks at Marvel ever take a look at this site they'd do well to take some or all of your ideas into consideration! Some really good ideas in this one.

[Powersurge]

Province? Sorry, that's really bad.

I think that Guardian is a good Canadian-spirit name. Peacekeeper might be okay as a sub., but please NOT province.

As for how to recast AF... I'd say forget about Byrne, and maybe look at what Claremont contributed. It was him and Byrne did together that really captured my interest in the team. Just Byrne was... not up to par with the man's other work.

[Snowsquatch]

As for how to recast AF... I'd say forget about Byrne, and maybe look at what Claremont contributed. It was him and Byrne did together that really captured my interest in the team. Just Byrne was... not up to par with the man's other work.

Them's fightin' words!!

[cmdrkoenig67]

Some of that looks pretty good, Snowsquatch....However...If one examines the dream teams/best leader people are choosing(as opposed to one person's choice)in that thread...

The majority overwhelmingly want Heather as leader(with up to 22 people saying they prefer her as leader...and I only got to about page 13) and most people wanted the original line-up. Mac got about 6 votes from those who wanted him as leader(remember...I only got to about page 13) and Puck with 8 votes. Heather beats them all bloody. Hardly anyone voted for Walter(sorry Walt).

That should tell people something right there.

Dana

I had some new ideas for volume four, which I mentioned here: http://forum.alphaflight.net/viewtop...?p=18678#18678.

But since this is the proper place for it....

Directors of Dept H:
Mac and Heather

Alpha Flight:
Northstar
Sasquatch
Talisman
Puck II
(1-3 others?)

Mentors and Reserves:
Shaman
Puck I
Narya
Yukon Jack
Major Mapleleaf

First order of business: clarify whether AF really died in New Avengers 16, and clarify what happened to the AF that went to Plodexia.

Scenario 1. AF (time-displaced version from AF vol3 #12) were killed by the Collective. The real AF return from Plodexia.

Scenario 2. AF survives the Collective. Later, Shaman and Talisman perform a powerful spell, merging the souls of the AF on Plodexia into the time-displaced AF on Earth. Earthmover is thus abandoned on Plodexia. (See more below.)

The Team is assembled:

1. Heather and Mac retire from AF, assuming civilian leadership roles in Dept H. (They are ready as backup, however.)

2. Narya and Yukon Jack retire to Kemteron. (They too are ready as backup.)

3. Shaman and Puck I work as training operatives at Dept H, mentoring Talisman and Puck II. (They too are ready as backup.)

4. The "spearhead" of Alpha Flight is formed: Sasquatch, Puck II, Talisman, with Northstar leading. (Plus other characters, if desired. Diamond Lil, maybe?)

5. Lou Stadler has returned to the RCMP, and acts as their liaison. Unknown to Northstar or the rest of AF, Mac has been secretly preparing Stadler to eventually replace Mac as the new Guardian. (!!)

The Threats:

1. Aurora. Northstar accepts leadership of AF for the expressed purpose of dealing with his estranged sister, who is still quite mad, and has become an increasing danger.

2. Jeffries. Still Gemini, Jeffries ceases control of the Plodex ship from AF. They face immense difficulties escaping the Jeffries-controlled ship, and even after he uses it as a base to destabilize Canada.

3. Nemesis. After the tragic death of Rudy Princeton, an embittered Nemesis decides to wipe out AF, just like she promised in AF vol3 #2.

4. Earthmover. This "omega-level" mutant was abandoned on Plodexia after "the merging." The resettlement of Plodexia is a failure. An embittered, deranged Earthmover returns to Earth with an army of mystically re-crafted Plodex. Being both a mutant and a mystic, Earthmover represents a serious threat to AF, and he is also resentful that Shaman has decided that Talisman is now his protege again.

In other words, lots of "embittered" ex-Alphans with very personal grudges against our heroes, and serious mental disturbances on top of that. When it's all over, any of the four could be dead, incarcerated, institutionalized, or perhaps redeemed and returned to AF.

(Just so long as they aren't killed. How many times were Ernest, Gilded Lily, Nemesis, etc killed and returned to life later? Too many.)

The Tensions:

1. Northstar versus Heather. Mac had always believed Jean-Paul could be a natural leader, but Heather is skeptical. Dept H need to learn to tell Northstar what to do, and let him worry about how to do it. Northstar needs to learn to check his own ego in order to lead AF effectively.

2. Northstar versus Sasquatch. For obvious reasons, the capture/rescue of Aurora is perceived differently by her brother and former lover. Sas isn't happy with Northstar as leader, but he doesn't want the leadership himself, accepting the situation as a necessary evil to save Aurora. Over time, Sas begins to respect Northstar's leadership.

3. Eugene mentors Zusha Yu. Zusha admires Northstar immensely (and perhaps has a crush, too). Her hero-worship of Northstar (and Eugene's distaste for Northstar's arrogance and showboating) make the mentoring difficult. Of course, Eugene is not the best role model, having abandoned Zusha and her mother years ago. Many fences to mend, here.

4. Shaman mentors Talisman. All fences are mended here, but Shaman faces a new challenge, as Elizabeth has become prone to the same depression that has haunted Michael throughout his life. Interestingly, Liz finds Northstar's success over depression to be inspirational, but finds Shaman's advice to be hollow.

5. Zusha-Stadler-Northstar love triangle. Yes, Zusha loves Lou, but has a crush on Northstar. Wouldn't it be funny if Jean-Paul also had a crush on Lou? (!!)

That's all my brainstorming could develop tonight. Thoughts?

[Snowsquatch]

I seem to have forgotten a couple of "continuity" issues, like:

a. Aurora and Northstar appearing in X-Men #189. (see http://forum.alphaflight.net/viewtopic.php?t=1300 ). I don't normally read X-Men, but I am very interested to see what is gonna happen there.

b. Mac and Heather's child. I don't want to leave the child abandoned on Plodexia. Maybe in the "soul-merging" scenario, the souls of the time-displaced Mac and Heather go to Plodexia, not the other way. Thus, we have another reason for Northstar to take the lead of AF.

I wouldn't leave them out in space for long. I'd bring them back within 6 issues or so. (Why leave that kind of loose thread hanging for years and years? I hate too many loose ends, and the AF series has way too many already.)

The majority overwhelmingly want Heather as leader(with up to 22 people saying they prefer her as leader[...]

Including me. (Just look at my AF movie scenario.)

I still see her as leader, just in a different capacity. My "concept" here is just a plausible excuse to bring back Northstar to AF. Would he come back just to take orders from Heather? I don't think so. But would he come back to lead the team just so he can save his sister? And would he stay?

Also, I'm not suggesting we never see Heather in battle. I would definitely love to see Heather back in the red'n'white battlesuit and kicking @$$. I just think we need to only see it less, and focus on other characters more.

(I can imagine a conflict on two fronts, with the Northstar-led spearhead fighting an Aurora-led gang of gun-toting goons, and the Hudsons-Shaman-Puck group fighting inside the Jeffries-controlled Plodex ship at the same time. )

I'm also thinking in terms of character dynamics. For example, I see lots of possible developments in the Eugene-Zusha relationship, but the Mac-Heather thing is kinda saturated. They have a new focus now: a child. I wanna see how that plays out.

And remember: neither Mac nor Heather ever really wanted to lead AF. I think having them move from AF to Dept H is a logical character development. (But that's just me.) They both began leading AF as civilians, but circumstances required otherwise. Now, they can do things the way they always wanted to.

Moving Mac and Heather to Dept H does one last thing: removes the endless stream of boring third-tier civilian characters that have represented Dept H. Now, "Dept H" can really mean Department Hudson!

Finally, a big part of this new lineup would be flexibility. My concept is very open-ended. Northstar might be a failure as a leader, forcing Heather to lead again.

...and I only got to about page 13) and most people wanted the original line-up. Mac got about 6 votes from those who wanted him as leader(remember...I only got to about page 13) and Puck with 8 votes. Heather beats them all bloody. Hardly anyone voted for Walter(sorry Walt).

That should tell people something right there.

I won't tolerate any Sasquatch abuse here. You have been warned. I just can't imagine AF without him. I definitely don't want him as leader, though.

I agree: give people what they want. I think I'm doing that. No one is being taken away. In fact, I'm bringing back as many classic Alphans as possible. The "semi-retirement" of characters is just a framework for character interactions.

I am keeping Heather and Aurora (for instance) but in drastically different roles. They will still be prominent in the pages of AF. And those roles can still evolve. If AF is successful in redeeming Aurora, we could see her rejoin. If Northstar is a screw-up or injured, Heather can step in.

Splitting the team into "spearhead" and "semi-retired" is just an excuse to explore different character interactions. Shaman is mentoring Talisman, but that doesn't mean we can't have an issue or two focusing on just them, or that he won't pop in to save her if she gets in over her head.

We can expect regular appearances by everyone. Just think "Byrne era," when each issue focused on 2-4 characters, not all 10+ characters.

My "concept" here is just a way to:
1) develop the needed villains,
2) pickup characters who have been dropped (like Talisman),
3) maintain continuity,
4) sew up loose ends (like the Eugene/Zusha thing),
5) explore old themes in new ways (like shifting Shaman's depression to Elizabeth, or give new life to the Northstar-Heather tension), and
6) avoid re-hashing old concepts.

I can't be clearer: I would love to see a book with the classic AF lineup of Mac, Heather, Snowbird, Shaman, Puck, Sasquatch, Northstar, and Aurora. That would rock. But, if that means a lot of #6 (and very little of #1-5), why bother?

Let me say this again: Splitting the team into "spearhead" and "semi-retired" is just a framework to explore different character interactions.

I'm not deeply "committed" to these ideas or anything. These are just recommendations on how Marvel could re-invigorate Alpha Flight. No specific idea here is "essential." Have stuff like "Northstar as leader" or "Talisman inherits Shaman's depression" is just brainstorming.

[Snowsquatch]

One last scenario: Both Heather and Mac lead Dept H, but in different capacities. Mac leads the "research" side while Heather leads the "operations" side, so Alpha Flight answers directly to her.

Now, "Dr James Hudson" can focus on his passion for science. He hasn't done much since creating the battlesuit. Time to get back in the saddle, James!

I would also like to see a little more focus on the three "doctors" of AF: Mac, Walter, and Michael. We need to see more story-lines emphasizing how brilliant these men really are. They have the whole Plodex ship to study alien technology. Also, many AF story-lines involve the mental disorders of various characters. Shouldn't a trained physician like Shaman have something to contribute in treating these types of things, or know someone who does?

[cmdrkoenig67]

Hey...No Sasquatch abuse intended, Snowy...I love Walt. I was just saying there were very few votes for him as leader.

Dana

[Garry/Al-Fan]

...3. Nemesis. After the tragic death of Rudy Princeton, an embittered Nemesis decides to wipe out AF, just like she promised in AF vol3 #2...
...Thoughts?

The Lobdell version of Nemesis has the sword semi-sentient/sentient/the source of her power. This sword should be getting fed up with "Amelia" if it takes her nearly 100 years to exact vengence for whatever it is that needs avenging. I don't think gutting Alpha Flight is the reason. Moreover, if the Canadian government and/or Walter can capture her, I don't think this sword would think much of her as a vessel of retribution.

This is getting awfully close to just putting ordinary people in costumes.

Okay, are Mac and Heather going to take over Dept. H with Proctor, Su, and Oculus still running around? In vol. 2, didn't Dept. H brainwash all of Alpha Flight, easily? What will stop them from doing it again? Do Mac and Heather even remember who Proctor, Su, and Oculus are?

I think starting with vol. 3 as the jumping off point will be a grave mistake and worsen an already-bad situation.

[Mokole]

I like the idea of Mac being the Science/Tech head of Department H, Heather being Operations Manager. Department H run by a committee of Puck, General Chasen, and both Hudsons. AF is under Heather's authority.

Omega Flight becomes a totally tech group, Wyre joins, they officially become the Hardliners, with a murky leader in the background.

Dreamqueen gets support on Earth and must be fought too.

Aurora and Northstar are enemies, however I don't have a firm idea how yet.

Box is used by SHIELD to cause havoc in Canada after the Civil War (revenge against those darn pacifist Canucks!), he winds up becoming a Hardliner. Yes, I do know who the Hardliner 'bankroller' is but I'm not saying yet.

An AF team made up of 5-8 is best. Sasquatch, Guardian (Feedback), Shaman, Talisman, Nemesis (Witchfire), Snowbird, Zuzha Yu.

[Snowsquatch]

The Lobdell version of Nemesis has the sword semi-sentient/sentient/the source of her power. This sword should be getting fed up with "Amelia" if it takes her nearly 100 years to exact vengence for whatever it is that needs avenging. I don't think gutting Alpha Flight is the reason.

I don't think so either.

The next writer of AF has a big challenge: sew up the fractured continuity of Nemesis. I suggested one way here already: http://forum.alphaflight.net/viewtop...?p=16490#16490

And a correction to my own words: ("none of that is consistent with Nemesis in AF version III, but very consistent with Byrne's AF.") I now think my "revision" is compatible with vol 3, which never gave us the full back-story of Amelia/Nemesis.

This is getting awfully close to just putting ordinary people in costumes.

You say that like it's a bad thing. Guardian? Vindicator? Iron Man? the Greatest American Hero?

Okay, are Mac and Heather going to take over Dept. H with Proctor, Su, and Oculus still running around?

No, those third-tier characters should just be dumped. Why clog the series with boring side-characters?

In vol. 2, didn't Dept. H brainwash all of Alpha Flight, easily? What will stop them from doing it again?

That would be the reason Mac and Heather have now taken over: to stop the abuse of Dept H's authority.

I think starting with vol. 3 as the jumping off point will be a grave mistake and worsen an already-bad situation.

I don't see vol 3 as the "jumping-off point." A good writer could mention (and dismiss) the worst absurdities of vol3 and vol2, and quickly move on with the new vol4 story-line. I would just prefer a quick-fix of dangling threads, rather than a radical retcon.

Besides, I think the whole purpose of leaving two AFs in place following vol3 was just so they could dramatically kill one of them off (which is exactly what happened). I have speculated on how Marvel could "fix" continuity if the time-displaced AF survived the Collective, but I don't think that's the real plan. I suspect that Marvel will build a new AF series with the space-faring originals, plus Sas and Puck II surviving the Collective.

(Or, Marvel could pull a simple "Dallas" retcon by suggesting vol3 #9-12 were just a dream or something, but that's the lazy solution.)

[Garry/Al-Fan]

...I don't see vol 3 as the "jumping-off point." A good writer could mention (and dismiss) the worst absurdities of vol3 and vol2, and quickly move on with the new vol4 story-line. I would just prefer a quick-fix of dangling threads, rather than a radical retcon....

This would work for me, too.

My feeling is Nemesis will be one person, regardless of whatever differences there may be between a living embodiment of retribution and an anarchist. There is a difference between James and Tony, neither of whom are ordinary, and Nemesis: either as an agent of retribution or anarchy, Nemesis is someone dead come back to avenge a wrong that needs avenging; only James and Tony can fully appreciate and utilize the capabilities of their suits, and it should be the same way with Nemesis. Otherwise, any woman could put the suit on and call herself "Nemesis," regardless of whether anything needs avenging or not. This is what the vol. 3 version is, and I just don't think that's the best way to envision this character.

Both General Clarke and Major Chasen predicted the demise of Dept. H in # 92 (?), the same issue that also has the Nth Projector file on the monitor screen.

How any writer be will able to stay away from all the boring, third-tier characters is beyond me.

from ANADAF# 5 (words by Scott Lobdell), regarding the Plodex ship:

Sasquatch's word balloon: "---and we fight a thrrrreee---thousand-yearrrrr--old ship?!"


Simon Furman reference to the Plodex ship, AF# 112:

The Master's word balloon: "...I thought you'd had such degrading foibles removed millenia ago, when the Plodex restructured your mind and body."


Fabian Nicieza's reference to the Plodex ship, AF#96:

The Master's narration caption: "Now I can fulfill my destiny and don the mantle of superiority I earned forty thousand years ago by being the one who reached the Plodex ship!"


Who's right? Is the ship only three thousand years old? Who's going to "fix" this?

[cmdrkoenig67]

I'd have to go with the original writer on the age of the Plodex ship...John Byrne.

Dana