X-Men 183 - Diamon Lil

[HappyCanuck]

Erg, Callisto, Caliban and Leech are the only ones that come to mind who have survived the two Morlock Massacres.

[HappyCanuck]

He hasn't been killed since his resurrection in AF vol.2.

He as in Mac or he as in Mesmero?

I remember reading somewhere that Mesmero died at least once in WX (I don't have the series, so I can't corroborate - as I said, it's what I heard)

[MistressMerr]

Mesmero. All that happened in Weapon X was that he lost his powers due to this confidence thing and they sent him to Neverland.

[darc_light]

Arclight too!? The only Marauder I can even vaguely stand is Scrambler, mainly because he looks like a goofy kid (you should see his pic in the Official Handbook Update '89 #6... ) He's also the youngest of the group, but he sure ain't innocent...but he's nothin' compared to the others, especially Scalphunter and Sabretooth...

Tar Baby and Ape were shown for one issue of Weapon X, then killed off...Why would you bring back characters after 20 + years just to kill them off in one issue?

Several other Morlocks also survive, Caliban, Thornn, Feral and Skids (Yes, Skids was once a Morlock)

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Realm/5113/mmembers.htm

That site needs major updating, it still lists Erg, Tar Baby and Ape as dying in the flood or on the Hill, and lists Masque as dead. I read a theory that the Masque Shatterstar killed was just a look-a-like, not the real Masque, which would explain his/her survival.

There may be others who got out in time, I'd like to see Bliss again, though I sincerely doubt it

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/blissmorlock.htm

And Masque may still be alive, I'm not exactly sure what Callisto did to him/her? in X-Treme X-Men...

[darc_light]

I posted pics of Erg and Scrambler, and a sketch I did of Bliss (As Jean Grey...Masque, need I say more...) under "Everything Else".

If they have to save Scalphunter and Arclight, they could at least keep them locked up, Scalphunter roaming the X-Mansion is just too dangerous. And to top it off, not only is he carrying weapons, he can form weapons out of his own body...don't they have containment cells in the mansion?

[kozzi24]

I thought--and could be wrong--that Mesmero had died in Alan David' run on Uncanny a year or so prior to Weapon X, and his resuurection from that death was never revealed.
Corroboration, anyone?

[kozzi24]

Aren't most of the Mauraders clones?

Should a clone Scalphunter be penalized for what another clone Scalphunter (or the prime being) did?

[cmdrkoenig67]

Erg, Callisto, Caliban and Leech are the only ones that come to mind who have survived the two Morlock Massacres.

You know what I've thought was funny?...Sunder was also a long-time survivor, but fell into limbo and ended up on the dead list. He was shown to be a part of the Muir Island X-Men and was shot(to death?) by the Reavers, but he showed up(alive and well) a short time later as one of the mutants watching the Muir Island Gladiator games...he then vanished from any book and was presumed dead....maybe he was just a continuity glitch, since he has been listed as a casualty of the Reavers attack on Muir Island?

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

He(Mesmero...LOL) was supposedly killed by the Dark Riders in Uncanny X-Men, but it was revealed in Alpha Flight Vol. 2...that he hypnotized them(and apparently us, the readers) to belive he had been killed.

Dana

[kozzi24]

Wasn't there another Alan Davis run AFTER Vol 2? They fought the skrulls in Davis' second run.

[Shaman Of The Whills]

If they have to save Scalphunter and Arclight, they could at least keep them locked up, Scalphunter roaming the X-Mansion is just too dangerous. And to top it off, not only is he carrying weapons, he can form weapons out of his own body...don't they have containment cells in the mansion?

Gathering them at the mansion was allegedly a voluntary thing. They chose to go there, and therefore it must be treated as a haven. They knew the risks when they said that it would be a safe place for all mutants. To imprison people who voluntarily came to you would only undermine intermutant relationships, not to mention cause many additional problems that they can hardly handle right now. Imagine if those mutants then got freed and specifically as a result of that were upset and decided to take it out on all the rest of them. Additionally, I offer these quotes from the 198 to further cement this:
Valerie Cooper: This is NOT internment. This project is intended for the protection of mutants and operates on a strictly voluntary basis.
Kitty: So everyone's free to come and go?
Valerie Cooper: Not exactly, Kitty. We have some control.
Kitty: Concentration camp.
In a sense they are already imprisoned and being constantly guarded by giant sentinels provided by ONE. Members of the 198 who might attempt to cause problems have already been dealt with by use of force, even further damaging the trust of their shaky alliance. Another quote, just to further counter why it would be inappropriate to imprison specific mutants for past wrongs:
Valerie Cooper: Are you aware how many of the mutants in this camp have, at some time, been suspected of homicide?
Beast: All of them?
Its this kind of thinking of "lock up the dangerous mutant" that has lead to the rise of the Brotherhood, Magneto's war and even the House of M event and fallout. Several members of the X-Men have even been party to murder on several levels. Should they as well be locked up? To do any of this would be a clear violation of basic human rights, and while speaking in the context of the American based Xavier institute would be a deprivation of the due process rights provided by the constitution. And as for the carrying of weapons and the necessary restriction of those weapons, most of those mutants are living weapons, and to suggest that mutants should be locked up as a result of their weapon based powers reminds me of a scene from the first X-Men movie, the exchange between Jean Grey and Senator Kelly, as she reminded the Senator that the wrong driver behind the wheel of a car can be dangerous, and that while we liscence people to drive we can hardly liscence them to live. If scalphunter's ability to carry weapons (a right provided by the constitution as well, as might be noted) or produce weapons makes him a candidate for isolation and special monitoring, should not also Cyclops, head of this little operation, be set aside? After all, we saw what he could do to a sentinel in Astonishing X-Men 8. Wolverine and Beast also are natural weapons, and psylocke is without a doubt a very powerful weapon, not to mention the rest of the psychics. My point in all of this is that once you begin limitations of people based on their differences or due to a history of discrimination, things can get very iffy.

[kozzi24]

[i]If they have to save Scalphunter and Arclight, ...that once you begin limitations of people based on their differences or due to a history of discrimination, things can get very iffy.

Very well thought out and defended post! =D>

[darc_light]

Beast is a weapon? Anyway, I agree with you on the trust thing, if they start locking up mutants who come to them, they'll stop coming.

The few of the 198 I know of are dangerous, and some are wanted by the authorities

Litterbug, one of the 198, a former Chicago Morlock, killed a few police officers (In self-defense), and aided in the destruction of the Chicago Sentinal plant and who knows how many of it's employees, so he has to be wanted by the govt.

Peepers is or has been a professional criminal.

Erg can fire very destructive blasts from eye, the one with the patch, but I doubt he has a criminal record, though he did help kidnap Power Pack for Annalee after her children were murdered, [i]by Scalphunter[/i].

The problems I see with Scalphunter are 1. He's a mass-murderer, he's been doing this since WWI, when he killed three of his own officers. Scalphunter hasn't killed to protect himself or others like the X-Men, he killed for pleasure (Wolverine probably has too, I'll give you that) and money, and he enjoyed it all (So did Arclight, but I'm focusing on Scalphunter right now). Were talking cold-blooded, intentional murder of innocent people, running in the hundreds.

2. I've been told, (whether or not it's true I can't say), that the Marauder's clones are inhabited by the spirits (or whatever you want to call them) of the originals...Transmigration of the soul? I can't remember the term...If it is the original, they have every right to hand him over to authorities. If he's not, you're absolutely right, they have no right to punish him for someone else's crimes, a clone of Scalphunter, who has a different essence, a different mind, would not be responsible, even if he thinks he is, and "remembers" what the real Scalphunter did. The Weapon X People "remember" a lot of things that never happened. If Scalphunter had been insane, he's simply needs mental help, like at Ravencroft. Kyle and Wyre both needed major mental help and never got it, and look at Kyle now...

3. He can't part with his natural weapons any more than a master of Karate can hand over his skill,so that can't be helped. The Right to Bear Arms also carries a responsibility. [i]But even with The Right to Bear Arms there are limitations, dangerous criminals and convicted felons are stripped of that right. Just as you can't yell fire in a crowded theater you can't knowingly allow weapons in irresponsible or dangerous hands. If I give a man I know is a criminal a gun, and he goes out and shoots someone, I'm an accomplice. If I know that someone has commited a crime, I witnessed it, and I don't inform or otherwise help the authorities, I'm an accomplice.

Killing Scalphunter would be wrong, it's murder to just execute a man without a fair trial (and many would argue any execution is morally wrong, but I won't get into that), especially when he comes to you for help.

The authorities could have him put in the Cage with other Super-Villains.

You can't just let a murderer go, especially a serial killer, just because he's a Mutant, that's reverse discrimination.

[darc_light]

I just remembered, it's not real... Scalphunter doesn't exist. I have to learn not to get all hyped up over fantasy.


"Oh my goodness! It's that diminutive renegade mutant...Weapon X-Tra Short! Come to savage my kneecaps, have you?" Donald Pierce to Logan in Weapon X I#2 (AOA)

[Shaman Of The Whills]

Beast is a weapon?
Most certainly so. He has claws and fangs, and has recently become more and more aggressive in fighting in the field, perhaps even losing some measure of control (for one incredibly clear example of the new 'savage' beast, Astonishing X-Men 10 in which he tries to shred the danger room persona. Admittedly this may be because he felt that it was a non-human enemy and could therefore be more violent towards it, but given what Frost had already said at that point, it was quite clear that the danger room had become sentient and that he and the rest of the team regarded it as such.
The few of the 198 I know of are dangerous, and some are wanted by the authorities
Exactly. Alot of them are considered dangerous, some of them are considered vigilantes, and some of them actually are dangerous. However, they are being monitored by the government as they are, so being wanted by the authorities is really of little value, considering the fact that they are kind of in possession by the authorities at this point. Also, pointing out criminal records of such doesn't really provide much in the way of proving danger... after all, nearly all of the heroes have at some point broken major laws. Even Mac himself is a thief, Gambit is a thief, Wolverine is a murderer, Emma Frost was, well, Emma Frost... I mean, they're all guilty of something on some level. The fact is that the government was well aware of this when they allowed the Xavier mansion to become a refuge camp for the remaining mutants, although their agenda isn't exactly clear at this point.

The problems I see with Scalphunter are 1. He's a mass-murderer, he's been doing this since WWI, when he killed three of his own officers. Scalphunter hasn't killed to protect himself or others like the X-Men, he killed for pleasure (Wolverine probably has too, I'll give you that) and money, and he enjoyed it all (So did Arclight, but I'm focusing on Scalphunter right now). Were talking cold-blooded, intentional murder of innocent people, running in the hundreds.
I'm not arguing for absolution of Scalphunter's past crimes and misgivings, like I said I'm arguing for a rule of due process. However, given the current circumstances, that hardly seems a reasonable thing to attempt nor does it appear to be on the government's agenda. Perhaps in time they might be able to take care of situations like that, but for the meantime there is no reason to simply lock him up given the fact that he has fled to the mansion for safety. Quite frankly I find the action wholly irrational given your argument that he would even bother to turn to the mansion if he is such a capable fighter, so perhaps the error is the coordinators choice to even put him in such a circumstance. As such, he should be treated the same as the rest of the mutants within the internment camp. But then again I think this whole camp situation is silly on everyone's parts, in and out of the universe.

The Right to Bear Arms also carries a responsibility. But even with The Right to Bear Arms there are limitations, dangerous criminals and convicted felons are stripped of that right.
In mentioning the right to bear arms I merely meant to allow it as a passing argument that one might argue, although I never intended to pursue such a course. I also doubt that the thought would even pass through Scalphunter's mind, as he would much more pleasantly disregard the law entirely. I'm only playing devil's, no not even devil's more like little imp's, advocate.

The authorities could have him put in the Cage with other Super-Villains.
Although this would be expressly against their offer to shelter any mutant who so desired it. I understand the argument that doing so would be for the greater protection of both the world and of those in the camps, but their offer stands as it is, and to submit one individual to such imprisonment would naturally submit them all to it. As to the cause of this, I think that its actually become quite evident in the issue of 198 that mutants are beginning to stand up for each other, even in doing the wrong things. If they had even dared to imprison him, there might have been riots on the mutant scale which could have devestated their attempt to work with the mutants. With just a simple little thing a group of mutants were suddenly blasting away at sentinels once more, just for wanting to leave the compound. Imagine if they started locking people up, even for valid reasons. The Sentinels had valid reasons to attempt to restrain those who tried to escape and suddenly even the innocents were flocking to their defense.

You can't just let a murderer go, especially a serial killer, just because he's a Mutant, that's reverse discrimination.
Yes, but he is (and I hate to use this as it makes me feel somewhat lame) innocent until proven guilty, despite whatever images might be attached to his character. Once again, I never said let him go (especially under the argument that he is just a mutant), I said put him through due process of the law. And as is evident, none of them are going anywhere at this point.