New Avengers 16 (no spoilers, but a link to some)

**RatCat** · 02-15-2006

I have a lot I want to say... but I didn't want to post any spoilers... and I want to read the whole book before I make any judgments.

But yeah, it looks bad.

**Barnacle13** · 02-15-2006

OK! That was shocking and disturbing to read/view! But I'm over the initial shock and will try to take a calm stab at this. It may not be as bad as it looks (even though it probably is). Reasons:

1) We only really see Mac get kanked. He could've flown out ahead to meet his doom and the others remained unscathed. Plus many of us have already stated that he should've stayed dead in the first place. One could look at it as clearing up that continuity mess once and for all.

2) Of course, there are several versions of Mac roaming around anyway. He flew off into space, was teleported through time at the end of V3, and his clone was still alive at the end of V2. So the Civil war thing still has many Mac's to choose from.

3) Shaman may have worked some mojo to get them all out of the fire at the last moment.

4) The Collective may have just barreled through and not made sure the kills were complete. And then maybe Alpha Flight could still recover.

This a being said, I still think they probably bought it. Since Bendis wrote it, my guess would be that the dead Mac is the origianl and the Civil War one will be a clone, and Puck was saved by the Raazer demon inside him (arrgh!). Poor little Orpan Hudson! Maybe she'll get pissed and form her own Alpha Flight once she can walk!

**Shaman Of The Whills** · 02-15-2006

****! ****! ****! ****! ****!
GOD BLAST IT! ****! I'm so ******* torn up right now! I'm SO pissed off! I can't believe this ****! If this is the real, true Alpha Flight, I am so incredibly angry. I can't believe they'd just take them out, especially like THAT... thats just horrible... I swear to God... I swear... I swear... God, I'm just trembling with rage. TREMBLING. I'll have to return at a time when I'm a little... I don't know... more coherent. And less outraged... AGHFGH! And if this IS without a doubt the true Alpha Flight and there is no coming back, I don't care what anyone else thinks about Wolverine, but that boy better get his ******* *** up and slaughter whoever did this! I want some ******* vengeance!

**Obsidian3d** · 02-15-2006

Ok I'm of two minds about this. I haven't read the whole issue, but from all reports the death of the Alphans is NOT shown. No battle, no nothing...just them lying on the ground bloodied up. If they ARE dead (which is possible going by the solicitation of the issue as Alpha Flight's final battle) it's a lame, Lame, LAME way to do things. You do NOT kill of heroes with 20+ years of history off-panel.

On the other hand, seeing as the deaths are not actually shown, I think it might be safe to say that they're not dead or that at least some of them have survived. No battle, no actual DEATH scene, possibly no dead Alphans. If that's the case we could end up with this opening doors to some of them joining the Avengers or some such.

I'm hoping for the second theory, because otherwise I'm gonna be really pissed off at the disrespect for those characters.

**Powersurge** · 02-15-2006

As was already mentioned, we don't yet know if it's dead or just beat up. Mac looks pretty messed though. Of course, he might just be dazed.

In any event, if they are dead objective honesty begs that I feel sorry for the rest of Marvel Earth. Afterall, Sasquatch alone can hold his own against Hercules or Hulk or Juggernaut, and the rest of AF aren't exactly wimps either.

Anything that can pound through the Flight that quick and easy, is gonna female-dog-slap the Hulk, tenderize his meat with Thor's hammer, serve Hulk-steaks up on Cap's shield and then pick his teeth with Wolverine's claws.

If the Marvel-God is a righteous and just God that is ... as opposed to some whacko on meth.

**RatCat** · 02-15-2006

If they weren't dead I don't think it would be called their last battle.

Judging by what we’ve seen here and by Joe Q’s comments I don’t see Alpha Flight involved in any Marvel stories for a while.

There are a couple of them on the Civil War poster, but I suspect that was just a generic montage of Marvel heroes to signify the magnitude of the crossover. Also for all we know this is their contribution to the Civil War storyline.

I’m pretty upset at this. This isn’t why I started reading comics again… To see my favourite super-team like that.

**Shaman Of The Whills** · 02-15-2006

As was already mentioned, we don't yet know if it's dead or just beat up. Mac looks pretty messed though. Of course, he might just be dazed.

I hate to say it, but the way they're drawn sure as heck makes them look dead. The eyes of Shaman and Mac look pretty lifeless... the way the bodies are positioned also looks like traditional images of dead people... Mapleleaf's arm lying back like that... and it doesn't look like any of them are even making an effort to get up, which may suggest that they've just been beaten into unconsciousness, but in my opinion that is even less likely... I mean all of them beaten only unconscious? At the very least, half of them are dead without a doubt. I'm just praying that certain ones make up that half...

Also, I agree with sentiments expressed either here or elsewhere saying that the rest of the Marvel Universe MUST have a difficult time with this threat if it can take out the Alphans like that, particularly Shaman and Sasquatch... even as "less important" characters in the eyes of the current Marvel Administration, anything that takes out those guys has to at the VERY least kill half of the New Avengers. Sure, Spider-Man, Luke Cage and Captain America might be cool on levels, but not a single one of them nears the power levels of some of the Alphans... I mean Spidey himself is pretty much equal to Puck on most levels, especially depending on the environment... anyways, if this is the death of Alpha Flight, it sure as hell better be the death of some other people too.

Also, if they're dead, the biggest problem for me is wanting them back... and if I were a Marvel writer attempting that, I'd hate to go the way of resurrection... so as soon as we learn if this was a true demise or not, I'm starting a little brain trust in my basement whose sole duty for the next 5 years will be to come up with a plausible, interesting and enjoyable means of resurrecting the team... Alphans in Hell maybe? Who knows...

And if I were Wolverine right now, I'd fine whoever did this, pin them down and then slice them to pieces... pop one claw... this is for Sasquatch... pop another, this is for Puck... pop another, this is for Shaman... you get the idea. Sure he's only got six claws, but meh, he probably didn't know all the new members, at least not too well.

**-K-M-** · 02-15-2006

**Adam** · 02-15-2006

So here's my thoughts, still having not read the issue yet…

Joe said this a few weeks ago:

So, let's review... When I said, ''dead is dead," the Internet community took that (as it so often does) into a million different directions and had a trillion different interpretations of what I said even though I explained it clearly. "Dead is dead" above all else was meant as something for our writers to be very aware of, that I wasn't going to allow a significant character death or resurrection to happen if not for the following things.

1.) No clichéd comic deaths. If a major character is to die, it must be in a significant way because there will be no resurrections (unless *)

2.) If a character dies a clichéd death, like he jumps off a bridge never to be found, sorry, that's just open for interpretation and clichéd writing. All bets are off, resurrect at will.

3.) If you're going to kill a significant character in a significant way, then you must either create something in their place or we're not doing it.

4.) * If, and this is very important, you're killing of a character and plan on resurrecting him or her, then I want to hear the plan in advance and it better not suck. This is exactly what had happened with Hawkeye.

5.) And this is the most important one out of all of these. If you plan to bring a significant character back from the dead then it better be the best resurrection story ever.

Now we could argue if Alpha is "significant" or not, but aside from that I'm pointing out number 3. What is Bendis going to create in their place? If there's some grand plan I can't see, fine. I'll stick around for the rest of the arc and see how things play out (like how Wolverine reacts). However… if this is just a "clichéd death" then I really can't see myself sticking around Marvel for very much longer. There are very few books I'm reading these days from them, New Avengers being one of them, and I was willing to give Civil War a shot, but if it turns out my favorite characters are just cannon fodder now I really won't hesitate to save a few dollars per month or re-invest that into DC or creator owned books. This "death," if it is a death, better have some sort of payoff or follow up, or I'm out.

**-K-M-** · 02-15-2006

Originally Posted by Barnacle13

and his clone was still alive at the end of V2. So the Civil war thing still has many Mac's to choose from.

The clone died in an issue of Wolverine, the same issue where Snowbird came back.

**RatCat** · 02-15-2006

Originally Posted by Adam

Now we could argue if Alpha is "significant" or not, but aside from that I'm pointing out number 3. What is Bendis going to create in their place?

I think what he is creating in their place is this new “collective” villain

**Adam** · 02-15-2006

I always saw it as creating something to fill the void. I can see how the New Avengers and Young Avengers could be argued as the result of the deaths in Disassembled.

The Collective, if I understand it right, is just a new villain. That doesn't quite measure up what we're losing.

**PWalk** · 02-15-2006

Personally I think how the whole thing went down is bull****. Here's a team built from scratch to go toe to toe with the X-Men and they get steamrolled by some glowing c-sucker, straight bull****.

I only come back to comics when there's a new AF book or appearance. This event pretty much assures I won't be coming back. F the higher ups at Marvel for giving the green light on this piece of **** story.

Now that I sorta vented allow me to provide a glimmer of hope. Dead bodies don't hold their hand up like the way that Mac is there. A lifeless bodie falls completely limp meaning that hand should be laying on or against something. It's my guess that at least Mac just got the caca knocked out of him and he's dazed. Take it from someone who's been knocked out before and had it caught on tape, that's what you look like.

I know folks I'm reaching here but what else can I do?

**Shaman Of The Whills** · 02-15-2006

The Collective, if I understand it right, is just a new villain. That doesn't quite measure up what we're losing.

Especially considering the context of this new villain... at least from what I've seen and read (which is limited at best), the collective while a "major" threat, does not seem like a continual threat, as in one that will last for a significant amount of time (examples of 'real' villains being Doctor Doom, Magneto and the like)... the way I viewed what was said is that when characters are taken out of the world permanently, they must be replaced by something of equal value, as in something that will effectively fill their level of power/influence and such... so yes, I agree with the idea that the Young/New Avengers would be the justification for the Avengers... essentially its applying conservation to comic books... hopefully balanced and such... I just don't see the Collective as lasting that long, especially on a 10 year plus scale.

**Defunct** · 02-15-2006

ABSOLUTELY pathetic.

It's pretty clear here, Bendis wanted his new villain to look a threat so he has it kill a B-list superhero team OFF PANEL. What, he couldn't devote a few pages of jis precious book to at least show them putting up a little bit of a fight?! It's nothing more or less than lazy writing.

The reading public is more than capable of seeing through this bull, but sadly that won't bring our team back. Pathetic.

Thread: New Avengers 16 (no spoilers, but a link to some)

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